1
   

Patriotic duty: Bash Bush!!!

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:13 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
I agree with what Roosevelt suggests. However, I happen to feel that giving aid and comfort to enemies of one's nation, people who have been absolutely clear on their intention to kill one's citizens and destroy one's way of life, is disloyal.

Wait.

You have said that to "disavow your government's decisions, with the specific intent of speaking for foreign consumption" equates with "giving aid and comfort to the enemy".

In fact, you've then specified that Americans should refrain from disavowing their government in any "situation in which the country's would-be destroyers can see".

Teddy Roosevelt, meanwhile, said that "Nothing but the truth should be spoken about" the President.

Note: he did not say, nothing but the truth should be spoken about the President except for, you know, when it shouldn't be. Like for example any situation in which the enemies could see what we are saying. Which, in today's world, would include most every TV station, radio station, newspaper and website.

So basically you're saying: I agree with what Roosevelt says. Except that I dont agree with him.

Brandon9000 wrote:
To say that you disavow your government's decisions, with the specific intent of speaking for foreign consumption, must surely qualify as giving aid and comfort to the enemy. You seem to be rejecting in its entirety the idea of telling your countrymen that they're idiots, but putting up some kind of a front of solidarity in a situation in which the country's would-be destroyers can see.

As Set already pointed out, the ability to make this distinction, in today's world, is close to zero. There is no way (anymore) to "tell your countrymen that they're idiots" without it being seen by "the country's would-be destroyers" as well. They can read the New York Times online, and they can watch Fox News broadcasts online as well. If they have any halfway decent intelligence, they will be as aware of the things that are said and written in America's domestic media as your average Kansan.

That means that the solution that you sketch as the only proper thing to do; as, in fact, the only way to express criticism of your own president but avoiding aiding and abetting the enemy - is a dud. Your solution is, after all, that Americans should express their criticism "indoors" but keep "a front of solidarity" up to the outside world. Thats impossible. There's no way anymore, in this age of web and satellite, to call your President an idiot 'domestically' but keep up a loyal front about him towards the outside world. Because any halfway decent medium - whether its the Wall Street Journal, CNN or Yahoo! News, by definition reaches the outside world as clearly as your fellow Americans.

That leaves just two alternatives:

- Saying it anyway, knowing that the enemies are probably reading along - which, according to you, is aiding and abetting the enemy.

- Refraining from saying that your president is an idiot in any medium that your enemies "can see", as you plead. In practice, this comes down to keeping such criticism out of all broadcast media, major newspapers, websites, etc. It's the polar opposite of what Teddy Roosevelt said.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:24 pm
****. Does this mean voting against an incumbent commander in chief provides aid and comfort to the enemy?

It must be so, because when I hear a report that some despot in some corner of the world won 99% of the popular vote during the country's most recent election, I am most disheartened at the prospect of going toe to toe with that nation.

Especially when I've got sandals on.




If you've seen my toes, you know what I mean.














(as if Maher's rants on HBO are meant for foreign consumtpion. sheesh.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:25 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I'd like to mention that attempting to put limitations on our freedom of speech is unpatriotic.

So, by this token, selling H-Bomb secrets to Al Qaeda needs to be protected speech.

Are you now saying that telling a foreign audience that "Bush is an idiot" is the same thing as "selling it H-Bomb secrets"?

As far as I knew, "H-Bomb secrets" would be classified information - that's a different beast.

Unless you are saying that Bush being an idiot should be considered classified information as well..

----------------

nimh wrote:
So basically you're saying: I agree with what Roosevelt says. Except that I dont agree with him.

Mind you, by ways of note to the others - though this might sound paradoxal, Brandon is actually probably just practicing what he preaches here. Although he may disagree with the actual substance of what Roosevelt said, he will not publicly disavow this American President's quote, because, considering he is addressing an international audience, that would, in his logic, be like aiding and abetting America's enemies... (:wink:)
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:28 pm
nimh wrote:
..in his logic...

Er.... Did he actually demonstrate any?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:40 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
I'd like to mention that attempting to put limitations on our freedom of speech is unpatriotic.

So, by this token, selling H-Bomb secrets to Al Qaeda needs to be protected speech.

Political speech is different than a product specification, and the main purpose of the Free Speech clause is to protect the former not the latter.

But apart from this obious point, the science of how to build an H-bomb is no longer a secret. It can be puzzled together from generally available scientific publications. The Progressive, a magazine, demonstrated this in the late seventies by doing just that, and by publishing the results. For details, Google for the lawsuit that ensued, United states v. Progressive. The facts of how to build an H-bomb, just as the fact that Bush has failed as America's commander in chief, is public knowledge. No harm is done by telling it to Al Quaeda.

But if the H-bomb was still a secret of national defense, there would be a major difference between informing Al Quaeda about it and expressing your political opinion.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:42 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
It's one thing to criticize policy within your own country. It's quite another thing to annouce to other countries, friend and foe alike, that you disavow your president.


Contrary to what you may hope in your heart, other countries already know what a fool Mr. Bush is. Kinda hard to hide that sort of thing.

Irrelevant to my point.


At least you didn't dispute the Bush is an idiot part. Razz
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:49 pm
Additionally, Intrepid's comment was not irrelevant--it was very much to the point. It is absurd for Brandon to continue to attempt to contend that the rest of the world doesn't know that the Shrub is a jackass and that his popularity is in the toilet. Intrepid's post was supremely relevant.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 02:55 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
I agree with what Roosevelt suggests. However,<snip>, is disloyal.


Brandon, do you read your posts before you hit
Code:submit
?
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 03:12 pm
nimh wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
You seem to be rejecting in its entirety the idea of telling your countrymen that they're idiots, but putting up some kind of a front of solidarity in a situation in which the country's would-be destroyers can see.


As Set already pointed out, the ability to make this distinction, in today's world, is close to zero. There is no way (anymore) to "tell your countrymen that they're idiots" without it being seen by "the country's would-be destroyers" as well.


That's not true! We can have all the secret meetings in basements and shadowy back rooms we want in which to share our real opinions about the President! Keeping secrets is fun!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 03:15 pm
cyphercat wrote:
That's not true! We can have all the secret meetings in basements and shadowy back rooms

I can see you in your shadowy back rooms..

Dont think I dont know what you do there, Cypher.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 06:17 pm
I don't think that anyone needs to be reminded that those who flew the airplanes on September 11, 2001 originated those flights in the U.S.A.

Those folks had been on American soil for a long time and were privy to the same information that any American was privy to in their own country.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 06:56 pm
nimh wrote:
cyphercat wrote:
That's not true! We can have all the secret meetings in basements and shadowy back rooms

I can see you in your shadowy back rooms..

Dont think I dont know what you do there, Cypher.


My goodness! Embarrassed I certainly won't discuss that here, it wouldn't be very patriotic of me to fuel the internet fantasies of some damned foreigner, now would it? Talk about giving aid and comfort to the enemy!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 07:12 pm
hehhehheh now i'll never be able anymore to see someone use that term without thinking of all kinds of other things ...

i'd offer you aid and comfort any time, kittie Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 07:47 pm
Oh my lord that man is funny!

Another quote to highlight:
Quote:
And that's why making fun of the president keeps this country safe. The proof? I've been doing it nonstop for years, and there hasn't been another attack.
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 08:20 pm
Bill Maher is a tool.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 09:36 pm
nimh wrote:
hehhehheh now i'll never be able anymore to see someone use that term without thinking of all kinds of other things ...

i'd offer you aid and comfort any time, kittie Twisted Evil


Mee-oww! That's it, I'm on my way over there!

Damn you and your Dutch wiles, luring me away from my countrymen... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 12:03 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
It's one thing to criticize policy within your own country. It's quite another thing to annouce to other countries, friend and foe alike, that you disavow your president.


To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

-- Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., The Kansas City Star, May, 1918

You have ignored my entire point, which is that there is a difference between criticism or derision of the government among ourselves, as opposed to such criticism or derision for foreign consumption.


You completely fabricate a scenario in which we could criticize the President and it wouldn't be known outside our borders. Grow up.

To say that you disavow your government's decisions, with the specific intent of speaking for foreign consumption, must surely qualify as giving aid and comfort to the enemy. You seem to be rejecting in its entirety the idea of telling your countrymen that they're idiots, but putting up some kind of a front of solidarity in a situation in which the country's would-be destroyers can see.


Brandon, you really need to let it go. For your won good and your own health.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 12:06 am
ehBeth wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I agree with what Roosevelt suggests. However,<snip>, is disloyal.


Brandon, do you read your posts before you hit
Code:submit
?


LOL I don't think so.
0 Replies
 
 

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