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Atheists - what drives you?

Forums: Spirituality And Religion
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fresco wrote:

I believe you are trying to distinguish between "atheists who believe there is no God" from "atheists claim the term God is a meaningless concept"
The difference is merely in inclination to argue! The first lot want to fight about proof and evidence, and the second lot don't care ! (I'm a third type...I accept that "God exists for believers" from my position above, but that this relationship is socially pernicious to humanity as a whole. Like Dawkuns I view religion as a psychological opiate and a social virus )

Yeah, kind of. It was more of an "atheists who believe there is no god" vs. "people who have never conceptualized god." People who have never conceptualized god don't believe in god because theyve never even considered such a dynamic. But i think you're saying that they still wouldn't be atheists because an atheist can only be someone who has conceptualized god and then rejected it?

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Brandon9000 wrote:

I want to know the truth. Maybe you don't, but I do, and I certainly will not let my hopes or fears contaminate my assessment of what is true and what is false.

I want to know the truth. But at the same time, what is the point? Why do you feel a need to uncover the truth if life itself is pointless? What purpose will it serve for you to have lived a more truthful life than others, when in the end we all turn to dust and are forgotten? What do you gain?

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Re: Atheists - what drives you?

agrote wrote:

There are things in life that I enjoy, and there are things that I want to do in the future. That's about it - that's my motivation in life. I really really really enjoy some things, though. And I really really really want to do certain things in the future - so I'm reasonably well-motivated.

I don't just bury myself in boring things like work or family. I'm interested in understanding the world as best I can.

Why do you exist, though? Is it for no other reason than to be like every other person? To take pleasure in much the same things as everyone else? To experience much the same things? What purpose does any of it serve? What makes you want to do these things when in 100 years you'll be dead, and no trace of what you thought, felt, loved, or experienced will remain?

agrote wrote:

What would be the point to life if there was a God?

Are you a Christian? If so, what do you believe is the point to your life? Whatever your answer to that question, I could simply respond with "but what for?" That's all you're really doing...

If there were a god it would mean that everything you are wouldn't turn to dust. It would mean that even if you dont know why humans exist, you would know that what you do wouldnt be futile... that humans do play some role in the universe, we arent just a byproduct of the big bang. That we're important enough to not just be relegated to a dirt hole on one planet out of trillions when we die.

Im not a christian, im an atheist. And this thread is supposed to help me find some point to my life.

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Monolith wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

I want to know the truth. Maybe you don't, but I do, and I certainly will not let my hopes or fears contaminate my assessment of what is true and what is false.

I want to know the truth. But at the same time, what is the point? Why do you feel a need to uncover the truth if life itself is pointless? What purpose will it serve for you to have lived a more truthful life than others, when in the end we all turn to dust and are forgotten? What do you gain?

I enjoy my life, there are certain things I haven't done that I would like to do, and I simply want to know the truth. I don't give a darn if it serves a purpose or not. We can go on like this for a hundred more posts, but you're not going to be able to dispute my statement that I just want something.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

I enjoy my life, there are certain things I haven't done that I would like to do, and I simply want to know the truth. I don't give a darn if it serves a purpose or not. We can go on like this for a hundred more posts, but you're not going to be able to dispute my statement that I just want something.

Sorry, i dont mean to be so aggressive. I'm not trying to dispute what you're saying, just get to the heart of it.

Personally i just find it hard to see the importance of anything we do when it's all for naught. I was hoping this thread would give me some ideas on how to rectify that.

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i had religion but gave it up, what drives me is the search for truth, sometimes a search for meaning. I dont see life as life, i just see it as time. Life is just time and time will kill us and it will carry on.

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Monolith wrote:

Personally i just find it hard to see the importance of anything we do when it's all for naught. I was hoping this thread would give me some ideas on how to rectify that.

It's not an unreasonable sentiment. I think the key is to realize that it's not necessarily "all for naught" just because there isn't a big Judgment Day at the end. We don't need the validation of something higher in order to believe that what we're doing is important. Importance is something that we, ourselves, bring to what we do. When you look at it that way, it's far from saddening; it's liberating and empowering.

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Monolith,

If you are genuinely seeking a "release" from what you consider to be "a pointless existence" then you might enjoy one of the courses titled "Practical Philosophy" which are located in centres throughout the U.S. and Europe.

http://www.practicalphilosophy.org/worldwide_schools.htm

These courses will teach you, through practical thought exercises, that the "me" which "sees pointlessness" is only one of a multitude of "me's" which constitute "the self". Just as swimming cannot be learned by talking about it, you have to get into the philosophical pool and experience the buoyancy.

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Monolith wrote:

Personally i just find it hard to see the importance of anything we do when it's all for naught. I was hoping this thread would give me some ideas on how to rectify that.

Why does not believing in a god make it all for naught? You're saying that a theists life has meaning but an athiests doesn't, and yet both are lives that happen on the same planet and face the same problems. I don't think theists see the light. They're just scared of the dark.

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Re: Atheists - what drives you?

Monolith wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

To do well and be happy. To ensure that in the process, I do not harm other people's attempts to do well and be happy.

Why? For what purpose? Why is it important to you not to harm other people? Because that might impact your own ability to achieve happiness, or something more?

Does doing well and being happy have to be a purpose? All animals strive to do the same. It is the natural order of things. An animal that is hungry isn't happy. So what does it do? It kills to eat. That is how things are.

A person that thinks about their existence eventually comes to a point they might not be able to reconcile or accept. They then seek a solution that would make them feel happier and better. This may mean to ignore it, believe in God, what have you.

Yes, even a belief in God, is driven by the same purpose.

And yes, it is important I do not harm other people and their chances to do well and be happy. For one, yes, it might impact on my own ability. If they see me as a threat to their happiness and well-being, they will attempt to remove me from the equation or remove themselves from the equation.

In the former, I get hurt and my chances of being happy and well are impacted. In the latter, should I need their help, they won't be around (they'd be somewhere else, helping other people, who might impact on my chances to be happy and well).

Secondly, it is because I wouldn't want to be unhappy, so why should they be?

Quote:

But is there any alternative "reason" for life than that supplied by god? Is there any reason to believe that life has a point?

Is there any reason to believe that life has a point if it really was created by a god?

Let's say a god created us. So what? What does that prove? It only proves that he created us. But for what reason? It could have been because he was bored. It could have been by accident. Just because a god says he created us for a reason, doesn't mean he ain't lying out of his backside.

If the existence of a god does not necessarily mean life has a point, why should the non-existence of one be any different?

I do not know the reason for life. I do not know the reason why trees grow the way they do, either. Yet neither bothers me. Perhaps, eventually, I'll find out. But I don't know what it is now.

Just because you don't know what it could be if there was no god, just because you can't think up of one, does not mean that there isn't one. And what if you don't know the reason to life? Well, then you can make the reason for your life be to find out what the reason to life is.

Quote:

Then what drives you to continue living knowing that if the earth were destroyed tomorrow, the universe wouldn't even notice? Is it simply that it's easier to live than to die?

It is because it is natural to want to live.

Even if there was a god, and our earth was destroyed tomorrow, the universe wouldn't notice. The existence of god does not change anything.

Quote:

Are you just as happy with your family as when you're thinking about the futility of life?

You don't understand me. I never said I thought about the futility of life. When did I ever say that? We all die in the end, even if there was a god. Death does not make a life futile. The non-existence of an afterlife does not make life futile.

It is only futile, if you refuse to think of it as anything but futile.

You are confusing atheists with nihilists. They are not the same thing. This could be the reason why I find your questions absolutely ridiculous and irrelevant.

Nihilists would probably agree with you and state life is futile, that there is no god, that there is no real truth, there is no real meaning or reason or higher power or morality.

Atheists would not necessarily state that, unless they happened to be nihilists.

Quote:

Do you value life?

Yes. Why shouldn't I? Why should the existence or non-existence of god make life any less precious? Just because some god created it? What's so special about the god that makes life so much more precious than if a god didn't create it?

Surely, if a god didn't create life, then that means we're very accidents. Very rare. What's rare is precious.

Quote:

Nope, just trying to figure things out.

Well, you won't do it holding to the assumption that god gives meaning to life.

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Shapeless wrote:

It's not an unreasonable sentiment. I think the key is to realize that it's not necessarily "all for naught" just because there isn't a big Judgment Day at the end. We don't need the validation of something higher in order to believe that what we're doing is important. Importance is something that we, ourselves, bring to what we do. When you look at it that way, it's far from saddening; it's liberating and empowering.

Right... but when every bit of scientific evidence shows us to be insignificant specks living on an insignificant speck in one corner of an insignificant speck, believing that life might have a purpose seems to require just as much faith as believing in god.

I dont need a higher power to give life importance, but i want to know that if this planet ceased to exist tomorrow - hell, if this entire galaxy ceased to exist - that the universe would notice. What good is living a life where nothing matters except to the people living it? What purpose does humanities continued existence serve? Why is being a moral person worthwhile? Why is having a good job or having a family worthwhile? Why is pursuing happiness at all worthwhile? To do so would to ignore the apparent futility of it all... and doesnt that run contrary to what a few of you have said about refusing to live a lie - albeit a happy lie?

If you force yourself to acknowledge this futile existence, then how can you - at the same time - let yourself be carried away by the pleasures of being human: work, play, family, etc? It seems to me that you can't have both, it has to be one or the other.

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fresco wrote:

Monolith,

If you are genuinely seeking a "release" from what you consider to be "a pointless existence" then you might enjoy one of the courses titled "Practical Philosophy" which are located in centres throughout the U.S. and Europe.

http://www.practicalphilosophy.org/worldwide_schools.htm

These courses will teach you, through practical thought exercises, that the "me" which "sees pointlessness" is only one of a multitude of "me's" which constitute "the self". Just as swimming cannot be learned by talking about it, you have to get into the philosophical pool and experience the buoyancy.

Looks interesting, but the closest one to me is about 3 hours away.

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Wilso wrote:

Why does not believing in a god make it all for naught? You're saying that a theists life has meaning but an athiests doesn't, and yet both are lives that happen on the same planet and face the same problems. I don't think theists see the light. They're just scared of the dark.

A theist has a purpose, though. We may see it as false, but to them it's as real as earth and water. Whatever problems, fears, or needs they have, they can trust that god will help them through it. A theist realizes that what they do on this planet actually matters to someone - in this case god. It's that feeling of validation that i think frees them from much of the angst im relating in this thread.

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Monolith wrote:

... but when every bit of scientific evidence shows us to be insignificant specks living on an insignificant speck in one corner of an insignificant speck, believing that life might have a purpose seems to require just as much faith as believing in god.

I guess where we differ is that I don't think "importance" and "purpose" are the same thing, or that the latter is a necessary condition for the former. For example:

Monolith wrote:

What good is living a life where nothing matters except to the people living it?

To me, "the people living it" is no small thing. You make it sound like life has to matter to more than just the people living it, as if that wasn't enough; but it's more than enough for me. As you noted, "the people living it" seems to be the only thing out there, so that makes it pretty important to me.

Monolith wrote:

Why is being a moral person worthwhile?

This question can be answered easily without reference to a higher being. Anyone who's ever been on the receiving end of an immoral action can see why being moral is worthwhile. Do we really need more justification than that?

Monolith wrote:

Why is pursuing happiness at all worthwhile? To do so would to ignore the apparent futility of it all... and doesnt that run contrary to what a few of you have said about refusing to live a lie - albeit a happy lie?

Not to argue in circles, but again: that "futility" is a problem only if you conflate importance with purpose. If you don't, then there's no futility to ignore. Or, to put it another way:

Monolith wrote:

If you force yourself to acknowledge this futile existence, then how can you - at the same time - let yourself be carried away by the pleasures of being human: work, play, family, etc? It seems to me that you can't have both, it has to be one or the other.

What you call "acknowledging," I'm calling "positing," but for the sake of argument... if those are the choices you're offering, I'll take the latter. You're making it sound like this choice is an arbitrary one that ignores the former, but it's just as easy to say that you're choice is an arbitrary one that neglects the latter. Half empty, half full... whatever floats your boat, as they say.

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Re: Atheists - what drives you?

Monolith wrote:

Im not a christian, im an atheist. And this thread is supposed to help me find some point to my life.

I completely understood that was your purpose from page one.

As you see life right now, it's pointless, it's pointless because you give it no purpose. You're confused, maybe a little depressed, somewhat afraid of dying because you think the things you do today won't ever matter. But you're definitely struggling with trying to understand life it's self, thats great man.

First off, life is it's own purpose, I'll try to be less lame, hehe. Life's purpose is your own. You give life whatever purpose you desire. Thats it!

There doesn't have to be a god for point or purpose. Death doesn't have to scare you from living. Just because you die doesn't mean your life doesn't matter now.

The purpose of life isn't to be moral or have a family, but try the opposite and see what kind of life you live in the present, then you'll understand it's worth.

For me, life is for fulfilling all your desires. If I desire an easier way to get to work, I set my being into searching for that and I receive that desire in the form of anything.. like a better route or a car. Now that shouldn't be twisted to mean if you desire to kill then it's right to murder. No one desires the consequences of murder. It's logical.

You're stuck in hopeless depressive mode, haha. Give yourself a purpose, fulfill your desires, don't fear the end of your life, and just because your life ends doesn't mean life now is pointless. It matters to you and it matters to me, right now.

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Monolith wrote:

A theist has a purpose, though. We may see it as false, but to them it's as real as earth and water. Whatever problems, fears, or needs they have, they can trust that god will help them through it. A theist realizes that what they do on this planet actually matters to someone - in this case god. It's that feeling of validation that i think frees them from much of the angst im relating in this thread.

Having a god to trust in, does not give your life purpose. It gives you something you can trust in.

As people, we can always trust in other people or ourselves. What we do matters to other people. Our actions are validated by other people. Theists have an extra person they can rely on, a god. Yet that is reliance. Emotional reliance. Not purpose.

Let's take one big step back and ask, what is a purpose? What is the definition of purpose? What do you mean when you say a life has purpose? Because I have this feeling you're confusing, "this life has an explanation for how it came about" with "this life has purpose".

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I think your life has more purpose being an athiest. Before with religion you were a toy for gods amusement. Being a thiest makes you believe that god gave you a purpose, he predestined why he put you here.. An athiest make there own purpose, they shape there own life and shape there own meaning why they are here on earth.

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Monolith,
Purpose is what you make it.

The point of life, likewise what you make it.

The popularity and prevalence of religion in general speaks of the psychological comfort it can bring to people asking the same questions you now ask, but then again so does morphine. If you can swallow that pill in good conscience without nagging feelings of intellectual dishonesty, more power to you.

I cannot, and many others also. More now than any time in history.
Of this I am glad. If everyone was given to fantasy, little would be accomplished here in the real world.
Real world things, that give many of us both purpose, and a point.

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Well, for one thing, an atheist doesn't bear the guilt of the religions who perpetrated or supported the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rwandan Massacre, the suicide bombings. . . that stuff, you know.

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neologist wrote:

Well, for one thing, an atheist doesn't bear the guilt of the religions who perpetrated or supported the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Rwandan Massacre, the suicide bombings. . . that stuff, you know.

True, but that is more of an aside than anything. Since the overwhelming majority of religious belief is not based on sound reasoning, but rather faith, it can be a powerful rallying tool to get people behind most any cause, no matter how horrific that cause may seem rationally.

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