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Atheists - what drives you?

 
 
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 10:15 am
What is your motivation in life? How do you reconcile your continued existence with the seemingly pointless cycle of life and death on earth? How do you cope with your insignificance in comparison with the universe (and whatever lies beyond that)? Do you simply ignore those aspects and bury yourself in the pleasures of the "real world"? i.e. a family, a job, friends, hobbies, etc.

How do you view death? Are you afraid of it? Ambivalent?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 5,590 • Replies: 108
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Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 10:52 am
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Okay, I'll bite.

Monolith wrote:
How do you reconcile your continued existence with the seemingly pointless cycle of life and death on earth?


It doesn't seem pointless to me. It's simply a fact of life, to be doted on or not as each individual sees fit. I acknowledge it, and move on. It's a lot like food: I don't worry myself to death about the ramifications of eating something even though I know I'm just going to excrete it later. I still get some use out of the food while I'm eating it. Same goes for life.


Quote:
How do you cope with your insignificance in comparison with the universe (and whatever lies beyond that)?


See above.


Quote:
How do you view death? Are you afraid of it? Ambivalent?


See above.


Quote:
Do you simply ignore those aspects and bury yourself in the pleasures of the "real world"? i.e. a family, a job, friends, hobbies, etc.


None of those things is something I hide behind or bury myself beneath. They are at the forefront of my life, things I actively engage in at every moment.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 10:58 am
It's all irrelevant. My concern is whether or not a God exists, and I believe the evidence does not support the contention that one does. I am hardly going to believe something false just because it paints a rosier picture of things.
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:07 am
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Shapeless wrote:

It doesn't seem pointless to me. It's simply a fact of life, to be doted on or not as each individual sees fit. I acknowledge it, and move on. It's a lot like food: I don't worry myself to death about the ramifications of eating something even though I know I'm just going to excrete it later. I still get some use out of the food while I'm eating it. Same goes for life.


But what is the purpose of your existence? Do you continue to live simply because it's easier than dying? Or is there something else that makes you want to continue to live?


Shapeless wrote:

None of those things is something I hide behind or bury myself beneath. They are at the forefront of my life, things I actively engage in at every moment.


But why are they at the forefront of your life? Is there some rational reason, or is it simply because they give you pleasure?
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:09 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
It's all irrelevant. My concern is whether or not a God exists, and I believe the evidence does not support the contention that one does. I am hardly going to believe something false just because it paints a rosier picture of things.


Why?

If life is pointless, then would it not be better to live that life in ignorant bliss?

If like is pointless, then what point does it serve to live a life in which you know the truth and live with it every day? What purpose does that serve, if life itself has no purpose?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:20 am
If God does not exist, we are left to our own devices to make a way for ourselves and our loved ones. Better we realize this sooner than later.

If God does exist, we no longer may assume license to govern our own lives, independent of whatever God may require. Better we realize this sooner than later.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:21 am
One of the joys of atheism is that you can engage in philosophical enquiry with no mental baggage. Statements about "existence" and "goals" are open to philosophical deconstruction.

For example, I have come to agree with the idea that all "existence" is about "relationship".* There are no "things" without "thingers" whether the things are "gods" or "trees". The difference is the nature of the relationship between a thing and its observer (thinger). "Atheists" have a negative relationship with "gods". The existence the category "atheist" is predicated on the category "gods". They are co-existent !.... but not in the same relationship as "believers" and "gods".

However to get back to "life's path" etc....it is possible to be an atheist and allow the possibility of "spirituality". In fact, to the extent that any philosophical position seeks to transcend or investigate the status of "self" it leans towards "the spiritual" ....i.e. some concept of a system beyond the motives of a single individual. (See for example references to David Bohm the physicist), without having to evoke "deities".

*Heideggar's concept "Dasein" is close to this idea
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:47 am
fresco wrote:

For example, I have come to agree with the idea that all "existence" is about "relationship". There are no "things" without "thingers" whether the things are "gods" or "trees". The difference is the nature of the relationship between a thing and its observer (thinger). "Atheists" have a negative relationship with "gods". The existence the category "atheist" is predicated on the category "gods". They are co-existent !.... but not in the same relationship as "believers" and "gods".


That's a very cool description. The one thing i'd argue with is that "gods" and "atheists" are not co-dependent. If gods did not exist, atheists still would, they simply wouldn't call themselves such, since there would be no "believers" to distinguish themselves from.


fresco wrote:

However to get back to "life's path" etc....it is possible to be an atheist and allow the possibility of "spirituality". In fact, to the extent that any philosophical position seeks to transcend or investigate the status of "self" it leans towards "the spiritual" ....i.e. some concept of a system beyond the motives of a single individual. (See for example references to David Bohm the physicist), without having to evoke "deities".


Very true. So is an atheist-philosopher simply a person who has yet to decide upon which faith to follow?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 11:59 am
Monolith,

First point...no. "atheists" and "gods" specifically co-exist because of the "-theism" link.

Second point..."faith" is about reliance on "a belief". I don't think philosophers are inclined to dogma. As for spirituality" it tends to be "ineffable" or "undefineable" so to that extent we could hardly rely on it. Better perhaps to think of Wittgestein's idea that philosophy is "therapy" which dissipates "pseudo-problems" like "the meaning of life".
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:04 pm
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Monolith wrote:
What is your motivation in life?


To do well and be happy. To ensure that in the process, I do not harm other people's attempts to do well and be happy.

Quote:
How do you reconcile your continued existence with the seemingly pointless cycle of life and death on earth?


Just because a god does not exist, does not mean the cycle of life and death is pointless. Even if the god exists, that does necessarily mean that life on earth has any point.

Quote:
How do you cope with your insignificance in comparison with the universe (and whatever lies beyond that)?


The concept of a god does not help me cope with my insignificance in comparison with the universe, as even if he/she/it existed, I would still be insignificant in comparison with the universe. If I really were made by a god/goddess/gods/goddesses it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Quote:
Do you simply ignore those aspects and bury yourself in the pleasures of the "real world"? i.e. a family, a job, friends, hobbies, etc.


I ignore them most of the time, but other times, I think about it.

Quote:
How do you view death? Are you afraid of it? Ambivalent?


I can be quite afraid of it, just as any Christian would. The thought of not existing doesn't quite appeal to me, but then I remember that if I don't exist, I won't be there to experience not existing, so there's no point in worrying about it.

Quote:
If life is pointless, then would it not be better to live that life in ignorant bliss?

If like is pointless, then what point does it serve to live a life in which you know the truth and live with it every day? What purpose does that serve, if life itself has no purpose?


Are you trying to convert atheists, Monolith?

If life really is pointless because there isn't a god (which I do not believe to be true), then what use would worshipping a non-existent god be? What use would it be, lying to yourself?

A god does not give a life any point or make it pointless. Likewise, a lack of god does not give a life any point or make it pointless.

A lack of god merely indicates a lack of a god. A god merely indicates the existence of one. Nothing more, nothing less.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:05 pm
fresco wrote:
I don't think philosophers are inclined to dogma.
HMMM!
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:19 pm
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Monolith wrote:
But what is the purpose of your existence? Do you continue to live simply because it's easier than dying? Or is there something else that makes you want to continue to live?


I create my own purpose (as does everyone else, frankly). I continue to live because I like living. Are these not good enough reasons?


Monolith wrote:
But why are they at the forefront of your life?


Why not? This is a case where I don't think a carefully planned-out and rationalized reason is necessary.
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:20 pm
fresco wrote:
Monolith,

First point...no. "atheists" and "gods" specifically co-exist because of the "-theism" link.


Then what would you call people who didn't believe in god, because the idea of a god had never occurred to them? How are they different from atheists? Isn't the "-theism" link merely a product of religion coming first, and therefore anyone who doesn't believe in god was labeled in relation to that god? If there had never been a "god" with which to label theists and atheists against, then wouldnt atheists simply exist under different terms?


fresco wrote:

Second point..."faith" is about reliance on "a belief". I don't think philosophers are inclined to dogma. As for spirituality" it tends to be "ineffable" or "undefineable" so to that extent we could hardly rely on it. Better perhaps to think of Wittgestein's idea that philosophy is "therapy" which dissipates "pseudo-problems" like "the meaning of life".


But how do you "prove" a philosophical concept? Can Wittgestein's idea be proven any more than Freuds? And without proof, isn't it all dogma?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:30 pm
Neologist,

Dogma tend to be fixed postions impervious to argument or counter example. Philosophers do not advocate "certainty" only "utility". If I take my non-dualist stance of "existence" as an example of a "philosophical position", I am immediately conscious of potential weaknesses such as the "existence of the earth prior to observers". This can in fact be resolved in at least two ways but neither of them I claim would be ad hoc ...they would "functional" or "rational" arguments. They would certainly be in a different league to ad hoc biblical fantasies about Noah's Ark carrying "baby dinosaurs".
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:39 pm
Ah, so my hunch was right.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt at attacking the atheist, possibly even a futile attempt at conversion though I doubt it could possibly be the latter.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:51 pm
Monolith.

Take my point on "certainty" to apply to "truth" as well. Philosophers would deconstruct "truth" except in the special case of binary logic where a more correct term would be validity.

You still seem to miss the point that you cant have "atheists" without "gods". People to whom "gods" had not been mentioned would be not called anything special at all. If you think about historical terms like "American Isolationism" this is meaningless except within a context of "war in Europe".

I believe you are trying to distinguish between "atheists who believe there is no God" from "atheists claim the term God is a meaningless concept"
The difference is merely in inclination to argue! The first lot want to fight about proof and evidence, and the second lot don't care ! (I'm a third type...I accept that "God exists for believers" from my position above, but that this relationship is socially pernicious to humanity as a whole. Like Dawkuns I view religion as a psychological opiate and a social virus )
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 12:59 pm
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

To do well and be happy. To ensure that in the process, I do not harm other people's attempts to do well and be happy.


Why? For what purpose? Why is it important to you not to harm other people? Because that might impact your own ability to achieve happiness, or something more?


Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Just because a god does not exist, does not mean the cycle of life and death is pointless. Even if the god exists, that does necessarily mean that life on earth has any point.


But is there any alternative "reason" for life than that supplied by god? Is there any reason to believe that life has a point?


Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

The concept of a god does not help me cope with my insignificance in comparison with the universe, as even if he/she/it existed, I would still be insignificant in comparison with the universe. If I really were made by a god/goddess/gods/goddesses it wouldn't make much of a difference.


Then what drives you to continue living knowing that if the earth were destroyed tomorrow, the universe wouldn't even notice? Is it simply that it's easier to live than to die?


Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

I ignore them most of the time, but other times, I think about it.


Are you just as happy with your family as when you're thinking about the futility of life?


Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

I can be quite afraid of it, just as any Christian would. The thought of not existing doesn't quite appeal to me, but then I remember that if I don't exist, I won't be there to experience not existing, so there's no point in worrying about it.


Do you value life?


Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Are you trying to convert atheists, Monolith?


Nope, just trying to figure things out.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:41 pm
Monolith wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
It's all irrelevant. My concern is whether or not a God exists, and I believe the evidence does not support the contention that one does. I am hardly going to believe something false just because it paints a rosier picture of things.


Why?

If life is pointless, then would it not be better to live that life in ignorant bliss?

If like is pointless, then what point does it serve to live a life in which you know the truth and live with it every day? What purpose does that serve, if life itself has no purpose?

I want to know the truth. Maybe you don't, but I do, and I certainly will not let my hopes or fears contaminate my assessment of what is true and what is false.
0 Replies
 
Monolith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:44 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Ah, so my hunch was right.

This thread is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt at attacking the atheist, possibly even a futile attempt at conversion though I doubt it could possibly be the latter.


Your hunch might need a checkup since im an atheist.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2006 01:44 pm
Re: Atheists - what drives you?
Monolith wrote:
What is your motivation in life? How do you reconcile your continued existence with the seemingly pointless cycle of life and death on earth? How do you cope with your insignificance in comparison with the universe (and whatever lies beyond that)? Do you simply ignore those aspects and bury yourself in the pleasures of the "real world"? i.e. a family, a job, friends, hobbies, etc.

How do you view death? Are you afraid of it? Ambivalent?


There are things in life that I enjoy, and there are things that I want to do in the future. That's about it - that's my motivation in life. I really really really enjoy some things, though. And I really really really want to do certain things in the future - so I'm reasonably well-motivated.

I don't just bury myself in boring things like work or family. I'm interested in understanding the world as best I can.

What would be the point to life if there was a God?

Are you a Christian? If so, what do you believe is the point to your life? Whatever your answer to that question, I could simply respond with "but what for?" That's all you're really doing...
0 Replies
 
 

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