IT PAYS TO BE PREPARED

McGentrix wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Shooting him 5 times and leaving the scene is a little more than self defence.

Where does it say he shot the criminal 5 times?

Go back to the third line of OmSigDAVID's opening post.

You really gotta read these things more carefully. :wink:

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OmSigDAVID wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Shooting him 5 times and
leaving the scene is a little more than self defence.

So your rational train of thougt
is that if he had lingered around,
then what preceded was self defense ?
David

I didn't say that, you did. I don't consider 5 bullets self defence.

By your reasoning above, you seem to be in agreement that it was not self defence. Self defence is when you protect yourself and report it to the police.

Aggravated murder is when you shoot somebody five times and run like a rabbit.

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Intrepid wrote:

Aggravated murder is when you shoot somebody five times and run like a rabbit.

You don't necessarily need to run like a rabbit, Intrepid.

It would still be aggravated muder if you pumped five bullets into someone and then walked away smirking, utterly convinced that you have acted like some sort of hero.

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I stand corrected. Cool

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Intrepid wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Shooting him 5 times and leaving the scene is a little more than self defence.

Where does it say he shot the criminal 5 times?

Go back to the third line of OmSigDAVID's opening post.

You really gotta read these things more carefully. :wink:

Ah, it was in the byline...

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Intrepid wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Shooting him 5 times and
leaving the scene is a little more than self defence.

So your rational train of thougt
is that if he had lingered around,
then what preceded was self defense ?
David

I didn't say that, you did. I don't consider 5 bullets self defence.

By your reasoning above, you seem to be in agreement that it was not self defence. Self defence is when you protect yourself and report it to the police.

Aggravated murder is when you shoot somebody five times and run like a rabbit.

I don't think you are being reasonable here Intrepid. Rather I think you are trying to evoke some sort of emotional response. The guy DID report it to the police. After he felt safe. As far as pumping 5 shots into the criminal, I guess that's how fast he could pull the trigger. Surpirsed he didn't empty the clip really.

So, a guy was attacked, defended himself and then paniced. When he felt safe, he notified the police and witnesses have backed up the victim's story.

*shrug*

The good guys win and the criminals lose.

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You have a very simplistic view of life.....and death.

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If someone was trying to steal from me or hurt my loved ones, I'd do something if I could. I probably would have rolled the window up and squeezed his arm until it hurt and he dropped my necklace.

I think 5 shots is excessive, and I probably would have aimed at his shoulder so as NOT to kill him (I wouldn't like to take a life). That's not even realistic for me since I wouldn't have had a gun on me, but I most certainly would have done something to protect myself. Maybe stab his hand with a knife - that hurts enough for him to stop...Or maybe bite it, if you could manage that...but primarily I would be rolling up the window.

I've never even seen a real gun, much less carry one in my pocket. That's what I find a little mind-blowing - imagine walking around with a gun on you. And he was only 22.

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OmSigDavid, don't you know by now you can't mention the word "guns" here without the tree huggers jumping all over you? Peace love and puppies, man.

While maybe he didn't have to shoot him 5 times, there is absolutely nothing wrong with legally defending yourself with a gun if some idiot grabs you by the neck.

As far as whether or not 5 shots is excessive, it's easy to look back at the incident logically and say it's too much. But in that situation, it's all reactionary. Kind of like when you all of a sudden see a huge bug crawling on the floor, and flip out and stomp on it 10 times.

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Yeah, it may have been adrenaline kicking in. Plus surprise and fear. It didn't say where he was shot (face, chest), either, so maybe he bled to death rather than by a shot to the head.

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Mame wrote:

If someone was trying to steal from me or hurt my loved ones, I'd do something if I could. I probably would have rolled the window up and squeezed his arm until it hurt and he dropped my necklace.

I think 5 shots is excessive, and I probably would have aimed at his shoulder so as NOT to kill him (I wouldn't like to take a life). That's not even realistic for me since I wouldn't have had a gun on me, but I most certainly would have done something to protect myself. Maybe stab his hand with a knife - that hurts enough for him to stop...Or maybe bite it, if you could manage that...but primarily I would be rolling up the window.

I've never even seen a real gun, much less carry one in my pocket. That's what I find a little mind-blowing - imagine walking around with a gun on you. And he was only 22.

You make more sense than the big tough men who wouldn't be without their guns.

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Mame wrote:

If someone was trying to steal from me or hurt my loved ones, I'd do something if I could.
I probably would have rolled the window up and squeezed his arm until it hurt and he dropped my necklace.

Defense must be EFFECTIVE; i.e., it must actually WORK.
Ineffective defensive measures,
like rolling up the window b4 he breaks the glass
usually only provoke the criminal predator to more intense,
vengeful violence against his victim ( that means YOU ).

Quote:

I think 5 shots is excessive, and I probably would have aimed at his shoulder so as NOT to kill him (I wouldn't like to take a life).

He rendered a valuable favor
for the rest of us, by killing and ending a criminal threat
who will never afflict anyone else again. We all owe him our thanks.

Quote:

That's not even realistic for me since I wouldn't have had a gun on me,

That 's like bragging that u don 't have a spare tire in your trunk,
or that u don 't carry insurance.

Quote:

but I most certainly would have done something to protect myself.
Maybe stab his hand with a knife - that hurts enough for him to stop...Or
maybe bite it, if you could manage that...but primarily
I would be rolling up the window.

Such weak responses don 't ofen work.
Self-defense is serious business.

Additionally,
if the criminal survives the event,
u can expect the criminal to sue u for attacking him,
and it just cud be that the criminal will not be entirely truthful,
in testifying against u in court. Even if u WIN, u 'll still have to pay your lawyer a few $1000s for his services.

Quote:

I've never even seen a real gun, much less carry one in my pocket.
That's what I find a little mind-blowing - imagine walking around with a gun on you. And he was only 22.

When I arrived in Phoenix, Arizona,
a few decades ago, I won my first gun
in a poker game, when I was 8 years old; a 2" .38 caliber revolver.

I did not carry it in my pocket:
I sewed some leather holsters for it
and was never ( or very seldom ) without it ( until I upgraded to a .44 )

Fortunately, I never needed to fire it in anger,
but I enjoyed working out with it at gunnery ranges,
or out on the desert.
David

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Intrepid wrote:

Mame wrote:
If someone was trying to steal from me or hurt my loved ones, I'd do something if I could. I probably would have rolled the window up and squeezed his arm until it hurt and he dropped my necklace.

I think 5 shots is excessive, and I probably would have aimed at his shoulder so as NOT to kill him (I wouldn't like to take a life). That's not even realistic for me since I wouldn't have had a gun on me, but I most certainly would have done something to protect myself. Maybe stab his hand with a knife - that hurts enough for him to stop...Or maybe bite it, if you could manage that...but primarily I would be rolling up the window.

I've never even seen a real gun, much less carry one in my pocket. That's what I find a little mind-blowing - imagine walking around with a gun on you. And he was only 22.

You make more sense than the big tough men who wouldn't be without their guns.

Whether a man is big n tuff
or
small n soft, he shud be prepared to defend his property
and his existence from criminals or predatory animals.

Man is a tool using species; that 's how we rose to the top of the food chain.
Almost all jobs that we do require tools;
that includes self defense.

David

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It seems that the only predatory animal is you. You must surely live in a very dangerous and scarey place.

Self defence is something that is not on my mind 24 hours a day. Me, or nobody I know has ever been a victim and the chances of ever being one are very slight.

Perhaps you should move to a safe place.

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Please take notice
that the use of colored or different sized fonts
in the following,
is to elucidate meaning n to facilitate;
it is not shouting.

Intrepid wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Shooting him 5 times and
leaving the scene is a little more than self defence.

So your rational train of thougt
is that if he had lingered around,
then what preceded was self defense ?
David

Quote:

I didn't say that, you did.

I must respectfully disagree with u, Intrepid.
U said: "Shooting him 5 times and
leaving the scene is a little more than self defence";
that means that u included his leaving the scene
in your calculations of whether he had defended himself
b4 he left the scene and u condemn MY "rational train of thougt".

Quote:

I don't consider 5 bullets self defence.

Upon what evidence
did u reach that conclusion ( that it was not self defense ) ?

Quote:

By your reasoning above,
you seem to be in agreement that it was not self defence.

What did I say
that leads u to believe that ?
It was a wonderful, successful self defense.

Quote:

Self defence is when you protect yourself and report it to the police.

How can anything after the event
( like reporting it to anyone ) determine
whether or not it was self defense before u reported it ?
If he forgets to report it,
then it changes, retroactively ??

Quote:

Aggravated

Aggravated how ??

Quote:

murder is when you shoot somebody five times

U realize that the criminal whom u so eagerly wish to protect
might still be alive and attacking after the 4 round,
or after the last round is fired ?

Quote:

and run like a rabbit.

How can whether or not u run
determine the innocent or the criminal quality
of what happened b4 u ran or b4 u remained hanging around there ??

If u DO hang around there,
or report it to the police, it can have the effect
of having u arrested and prosecuted both civilly n criminally,
and even if u WIN both civil n criminal litigation,
u 'll have many $$1000s to pay your own lawyers.
U 'll never recover that money.

David

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Intrepid wrote:

It seems that the only predatory animal is you.

If your civility collapses,
and u defend your position by employment of personal insolence
that proves the bankruptcy of your philosophical position;
i.e., when u cannot win by honest debate,
u choose to mindlessly sling mud.

I cannot be a predatory animal,
or a predatory anything,
unless I have committed a predatory act.
Do u have evidence that I have done so ??

Quote:

You must surely live in a very dangerous and scarey place.

However SURE u may be,
your assertion is incorrect.
All of my life, I have lived in good, quiet, elegant, peaceful neighborhoods.

Quote:

Self defence is something that is not on my mind 24 hours a day. Me, or nobody I know has ever been a victim and the chances of ever being one are very slight.

Perhaps you should move to a safe place.

As set forth above,
I am already there, and I have more than enuf firepower for self defense.

I do not seek this for myself, because I already have it;
I desire all of my fellow citizens
to be well armed.
David

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Please take note that I did not resort to the use of huge fonts and coloured text in order to elucidate my meaning. Laughing

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:

Upon what evidence
did u reach that conclusion ( that it was not self defense ) ?

Self defence is using enough force to stop your assailant. Has it been proven that the assailant kept coming as the slugs were being pumped into him?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:

How can anything after the event
( like reporting it to anyone ) determine
whether or not it was self defense before u reported it ?
If he forgets to report it,
then it changes, retroactively ??

Huh?? My point (as you should understand if you were really a trial lawyer as your profile says...and you should also understand being a mensa member) was that if it was self defence and not something else, then he would not have any qualms about contacting the authorities to report that he shot the perp of a crime in self defence. Of course, he would not want to stay around if it was not self defence. Again, how much self defence is deemed reasonable?

Also, I am somewhat amazed at your saying "if he forgets to report it". How the hell do you forget such a thing?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:

U realize that the criminal whom u so eagerly wish to protect
might still be alive and attacking after the 4 round,
or after the last round is fired ?

How do you come to the conclusion that I want to protect any criminal? I have addressed the second part above. You can only speculate, as can I.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:

If u DO hang around there,
or report it to the police, it can have the effect
of having u arrested and prosecuted both civilly n criminally,
and even if u WIN both civil n criminal litigation,
u 'll have many $$1000s to pay your own lawyers.
U 'll never recover that money.

This is your most telling paragraph yet.
You are saying that there will be an arrest is it is reported to the police. Don't you think that this is evidence in and of itself that it is not an acceptable course of action to shoot somebody?

Are you saying that it is better to kill somebody and leave the scene because it may cost you money if you report it?

Um, ya, sure....when you hit somebody with your car you should back over them again to be sure they are dead. No lawsuit that way. Shocked

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David, you're right in a way... I don't live by fear and we here in Canada are not allowed to 'bear arms' so the likelihood of us happening to have a gun on us (esp a loaded gun) is next to nil unless you're a criminal, so this likelihood would never happen. Either we'd be dead or our adrenaline would kick in and we'd fight with whatever was to hand. I was going by that scenario, since it's our way of life.

I might scratch his eyes out or do other damage, but he wouldn't get away with just nothing so that even if he killed me, hopefully the DNA would be enough to convict him.

This is such a gruesome topic, though, I'm surprised at how it's continued. I wish you all the best and hope you don't wind up in jail as a vigilante.

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Mame wrote:

David, you're right in a way... I don't live by fear

Americans don 't live by fear, either.
Its a question of good judgment:
being prepared to successfully address adverse circumstances
that might arise. Is it living by fear
to keep a fire extinguisher in your house or business ?

Quote:

and we here in Canada are not allowed to 'bear arms'

Since we threw out the King of England,
America has been a LIBERTARIAN country,
being very stingy in the political power
that we have granted to government.
( Government power and personal freedom are
inversely proportional. )

Quote:

so the likelihood of us happening to have a gun on us (esp a loaded gun) is next to nil unless you're a criminal, so this likelihood would never happen. Either we'd be dead or our adrenaline would kick in and we'd fight with whatever was to hand. I was going by that scenario, since it's our way of life.

Good Luck with that.

Quote:

I might scratch his eyes out or do other damage, but he wouldn't get away with just nothing so that even if he killed me, hopefully the DNA would be enough to convict him.

This is such a gruesome topic, though, I'm surprised at how it's continued.

Policically,
it is of PIVOTAL, and FUNDAMENTAL importance.
It is the basic question of whether the people
or the government will have the upper hand.

The American philosophy
is that the citizens are the OWNERS and
government is just our low-life hired real estate manager.

Quote:

I wish you all the best and hope you don't wind up in jail as a vigilante.

I am an ugly old man.
In my years, I have never had occasion
to be in any way personally involved in a crime,
so the "vigilante" issue has never arisen.

I cheer and respect those victims who have successfully defended themselves,
and ideally have ( as in the instant case ) abruptly ended the criminal careers
of the predators by whom they were confronted.
They made the world safer for the rest of us,
a valuable public service.
David

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And here I thought it was a democratic republic. :wink:

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