What sources from 'your own side' do you tend to ignore?

Re: What sources from 'your own side' do you tend to ignore?

Thomas wrote:

* All the authors who agree with me that the best approach to global warming is to do nothing -- but continue to insist, despite overwhelming evidence, that global warming is actually happening.

I meant "continue to deny", of course

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McGentrix wrote:

Iraq to take control of its troops
Monday, 28 August 2006

By Staff Sgt. James Sherrill
124th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government will officially take control of its major air, sea and land-based military commands beginning early next month by standing up the Iraqi Joint Headquarters......

McGentrix, that's already been quoted by Timber in his earlier attempt to cover for Sierra Song's content-free wailing, just as you are right now.

I asked for some evidence of a battle or skirmish where the Iraqi Army went up to a position held by insurgents/militia, enganged them without help from US or coalition forces, overran their position and took over.

Instead, you and Timber give us press releases about organizational changes. Sorry, that doesn't do it.

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sozobe wrote:

(I think they have an unsubscribe option).

Moveon ignores you when you excercise the option. I sent them some money during the 2004 campaign, "unsubscribed" immediately after the election, and they still spam me. (My spam filter deletes them before I see them, so I don't mind.)

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Well that's annoying.

I definitely have less affection for MoveOn than I used to...

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Re: What sources from 'your own side' do you tend to ignore?

Thomas wrote:

Thomas wrote:
* All the authors who agree with me that the best approach to global warming is to do nothing -- but continue to insist, despite overwhelming evidence, that global warming is actually happening.

I meant "continue to deny", of course

As my Freudian-soaked companion would say, "Sure...sure"

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sozobe wrote:

Well that's annoying.

I definitely have less affection for MoveOn than I used to...

Me too. But...

Do you recall an earlier conversation regarding the functional necessity (for lack of better wording) of some radicalism in new movements? I'd guess it is really just bell curve stuff actually. But as with the feminist movement or the civil rights movement or the environmental movement, the more radical folks seem to serve as something like the sharp end of a spear. Take Greenpeace, which began in my home town. Though sometimes over the edge, they deserve credit for a sea change in public awareness and activism.

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kelticwizard wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Iraq to take control of its troops
Monday, 28 August 2006

By Staff Sgt. James Sherrill
124th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government will officially take control of its major air, sea and land-based military commands beginning early next month by standing up the Iraqi Joint Headquarters......

McGentrix, that's already been quoted by Timber in his earlier attempt to cover for Sierra Song's content-free wailing, just as you are right now.

I asked for some evidence of a battle or skirmish where the Iraqi Army went up to a position held by insurgents/militia, enganged them without help from US or coalition forces, overran their position and took over.

Instead, you and Timber give us press releases about organizational changes. Sorry, that doesn't do it.

I must have missec that. Embarrassed

What's the hurry? Do you think that somehow the Iraqi Army will fail somehow? Progress is being made in Iraq and the Iraqi army is solidifying it's presence in the country. The story I posted shows that the Iraqi military is becoming independent and gaining the ability to stand on it's own. I am not quite sure what you are trying to prove or disprove with your continuing badgering of sierrasong, nor do I really care.

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I attended one MoveOn meeting and they asked me to move-on to a liberal group on the other side (Corrales) of town, I did so. Both the wine and the coffee served inproved.

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It wasn't badgering. SS began to badger KW because he asked for a link for a story showing the Iraqi Army acting alone to defeat an enemy. The badgering was all on SS's side, since she was constantly sneering at KW for the sources he said he consults--but she never did come up with a link to support something she claimed was not reported in the mainstream media.

Your view of the entire passage between SS and KW is warped if you think he was badgering her.

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Quote:

What's the hurry? Do you think that somehow the Iraqi Army will fail somehow?

Yes, I do. Without the US forces to back them up, they will have a pretty difficult time dealing with the terrorists, the Shiite militias, and the Sunni Insurgents, the PKK, Iran. They won't have any of the air support which makes our troops so superior.

They also have a lot of work to do to keep the army together and under control.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/24/AR2006082401917_pf.html

Quote:

The withdrawal sparked wide-scale looting at the base and then intense clashes late Thursday between Iraqi army forces guarding the camp and unknown attackers, a military intelligence official said. The volatile situation worsened when the 2nd Battalion of the Iraqi army's 4th Brigade mutinied and attacked a local military outpost, said the official, who spoke on condition that his name not be used.

Hard to see a whole battalion mutiny and claim that things are going well.

Cycloptichorn

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kelticwizard wrote:

Has the Iraqi Army won a single battle or skirmish on their own where, without assistance from US forces, they went up to a position held by mioitias or insurgents, engaged the enenmy and overran their position.

Quote:

Kidnapped Ramadi Police Employee Rescued by Iraqi Soldiers
Tuesday, 29 August 2006
Multi-National Corps - Iraq
Press Release
Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory
APO AE 09342

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Aug. 29, 2006

RELEASE No. 20060829-04

Kidnapped Ramadi Police Employee Rescued by Iraqi Soldiers

REGIMENTAL COMBAT TEAM-5 PUBLIC AFFAIRS

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq - An employee of the Ramadi police was discovered in the trunk of a Black Daewoo Prince in Fallujah by Iraqi soldiers from the 1st Iraqi Army Division during a cordon-and-search operation Sunday, Aug. 27.

"The rescue of the Iraqi citizen during Sunday's intelligence-driven counterinsurgency operation in Fallujah is a result of the dedication and professionalism of the soldiers of the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Brigade, 1st Division of the Iraqi Army," said Marine Lt. Col. James Teeples, the senior military transition team advisor to 3-2-1. "From conception through execution, this was solely an Iraqi Army effort." ...

Quote:

Iraqi Forces Conduct Two Raids in Central Iraq
Sunday, 27 August 2006
Multi-National Corps - Iraq
Press Release
Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory
APO AE 09342

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Aug. 27, 2006

Release No. 20060827-01

Iraqi Forces Conduct Two Raids in Central Iraq

BAGHDAD - Iraqi army and security forces, with coalition forces observing, conducted multiple early-morning raids on August 23, capturing three primary suspects associated with emplacing improvised explosive devices and participating in illegal armed groups.

The first raid captured a person suspected of emplacing IEDs and targeting U.S. military personnel in Ar Ramadi. The raid was conducted without incident and five other persons were detained for questioning.

The second raid captured two persons who allegedly belonged to a cell that engaged in promoting sectarian violence through kidnapping and murder in southern Baghdad. The raid, conducted as part of Operation Together Forward, occurred without further incident.

No civilian, Iraqi forces or coalition forces were injured during the operations

Quote:

IA soldiers rescue 3 kidnapped policemen after terrorist attack

Thursday, 17 August 2006
Multi-National Corps - Iraq

Press Release

Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory

APO AE 09342

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

RELEASE No. 20060817-03

August 17, 2006

IA soldiers rescue 3 kidnapped policemen after terrorist attack

Multi-National Division - Baghdad PAO

BAGHDAD - Soldiers from 4th Brigade, 6th Iraqi Army Division, rescued three kidnapped Iraqi policemen Wednesday during a small-arms engagement with terrorists in a rural area outside of Babil province.

The freed Iraqi policemen reported being kidnapped from another checkpoint only minutes away from where the gunfight took place.

The IA soldiers discovered the kidnap victims after they were attacked by small-arms fire from four vehicles passing by their checkpoint. They returned fire, capturing two of the vehicles ...

Quote:

IA soldiers detain 6 suspected terrorists, seize large weapons cache
Tuesday, 08 August 2006
Multi-National Corps - Iraq

Press Release

Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory

APO AE 09342

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Aug. 8, 2006

Release No. 20060808-02

IA soldiers detain 6 suspected terrorists, seize large weapons cache

Multi-National Division - Baghdad PAO

BAGHDAD - Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 1st Brigade, 6th Iraqi Army Division, detained six suspected terrorists and seized a large weapons cache during a raid of the Al Hassana'n Mosque in southwestern Baghdad at approximately 10:30 p.m. Sunday.

The weapons cache consisted of four PKC machineguns, 13 AK-47 assault rifles, two rocket-propelled grenade launchers, three RPGs, four RPG fuses, five 60mm mortar rounds, a 60mm mortar tube, a box of mortar cartridges, a flare gun, various bomb-making materials and terrorist propaganda.

The suspects were detained for questioning.

Iraqi Forces target 'DeathSquad' activities in four Baghdad operations

Iraqi National Police capture gang members[/i][/b]

Iraqi Forces raid takes down 'Death Squad' cell in Baghdad

Iraqi Forces capture two insurgents in raid near Fallujah

Iraqi Army soldiers capture IED manufacturers

Iraqi army soldiers kill 5 terrorists, wound 13, detain 47 during firefight

Two Iraqi Forces raids in Baghdad net four insurgents

Iraqi army soldiers detain 6 terrorists, capture multiple weapon caches

1st Mechanized Brigade, 9th Iraqi Army Division conducts large operation

Iraqi Army captures entire insurgent cell

Iraqi Forces raid nets 7 insurgents in Baghdad

Iraqi Forces capture High-Level Insurgent Leader

National police thwart attack on Salman Pak Mosque, NP headquarters

Iraqi Security Forces capture terrorist leader in Karbala

Iraqi security forces quell sectarian skirmishes, restore order

Iraqi Forces raid nets 2 cell leaders, kills insurgent financier

6th Iraqi Army detains 19 in morning raid

Iraqi Security Forces continue to take charge against terror

Iraqi Army Leads Operation; Weapons Cache Found, Destroyed

An ongoing, and expanding, independent Iraqi Army operation:

Quote:

Fierce fighting reported between Iraq Army, Iran-backed militia

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Tuesday, August 29, 2006

he Iraq Army has engaged in fierce clashes with the Iranian-sponsored Mahdi Army which is represented in the government of Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki.

Troops from the Iraqi Army's 8th Division fought street battles with forces from the increasingly powerfuly Iran-backed militia in the central Iraqi town of Diwaniyah. The fighting, which initially included police units, began on Aug. 27 and involved hundreds of soldiers and insurgents ...

... On Tuesday, military sources said a Mahdi commander reached agreement for a ceasefire on Tuesday. They said the militia has begun withdrawing from checkpoints established around town.

"We have also asked for more troops from other provinces because a large military operation has been planned," an Iraq Army officer said.

Now, of course, Coalition advisors were present, and in some instances, Coaltion Forces provided logistic support, and in some instances provided perimeter security, cordoning the operation area but taking no part in the raids and assaults, and in some cases provided air and/or heavy weapon support not operationally organic to the Iraqi Forces, so I suppose you could say the Iaqis weren't entirely on their own ... Rolling Eyes

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blatham wrote:

sozobe wrote:
Well that's annoying.

I definitely have less affection for MoveOn than I used to...

Me too. But...

Do you recall an earlier conversation regarding the functional necessity (for lack of better wording) of some radicalism in new movements? I'd guess it is really just bell curve stuff actually. But as with the feminist movement or the civil rights movement or the environmental movement, the more radical folks seem to serve as something like the sharp end of a spear. Take Greenpeace, which began in my home town. Though sometimes over the edge, they deserve credit for a sea change in public awareness and activism.

I know what you mean, but there is the leading edge in terms of speaking truth to power and all of that, and then there is the leading edge like having a fake "unsubscribe" option. That's just obnoxious and unnecessary and doesn't help anything.

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blatham wrote:

Do you recall an earlier conversation regarding the functional necessity (for lack of better wording) of some radicalism in new movements? I'd guess it is really just bell curve stuff actually. But as with the feminist movement or the civil rights movement or the environmental movement, the more radical folks seem to serve as something like the sharp end of a spear.

Two objections: (1) the current wave of Democrats aren't a new movement. It's run of the mill trade union talking points, environmentalist talking points, affirmative action talking point. Whether those talking points are good and bad, none of them strikes me as new. Even the rebranding effort for those old talking points, which I notice on Air America and in some blogs, consists of abandoning the term "liberal" for "progressive". A new movement where even the re-branding is early 20th century? Please.

(2) Generally, when I look at various movements, I don't see the radicals being ahead of the curve. Mary Wollestonecraft is much more reasonable than Betty Friednan, William Godwin much more reasonable than Peter Kropotkin, Martin Luther King much more reasonable than Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakhan.

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sozobe wrote:

blatham wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Well that's annoying.

I definitely have less affection for MoveOn than I used to...

Me too. But...

Do you recall an earlier conversation regarding the functional necessity (for lack of better wording) of some radicalism in new movements? I'd guess it is really just bell curve stuff actually. But as with the feminist movement or the civil rights movement or the environmental movement, the more radical folks seem to serve as something like the sharp end of a spear. Take Greenpeace, which began in my home town. Though sometimes over the edge, they deserve credit for a sea change in public awareness and activism.

I know what you mean, but there is the leading edge in terms of speaking truth to power and all of that, and then there is the leading edge like having a fake "unsubscribe" option. That's just obnoxious and unnecessary and doesn't help anything.

Yup and that's why the "me too"

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Yeah.

It gets at a larger part of what I remember of that discussion, though -- the whole "well they do it too" thing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some MoveOn people said, "Well, the [Republican equivalent of some sort] does it, we can't be all wimpy and miss getting any eyeballs."

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Thomas wrote:

blatham wrote:
Do you recall an earlier conversation regarding the functional necessity (for lack of better wording) of some radicalism in new movements? I'd guess it is really just bell curve stuff actually. But as with the feminist movement or the civil rights movement or the environmental movement, the more radical folks seem to serve as something like the sharp end of a spear.

Two objections: (1) the current wave of Democrats aren't a new movement. It's run of the mill trade union talking points, environmentalist talking points, affirmative action talking point. Whether those talking points are good and bad, none of them strikes me as new. Even the rebranding effort for those old talking points, which I notice on Air America and in some blogs, consists of abandoning the term "liberal" for "progressive". A new movement where even the re-branding is early 20th century? Please.

(2) Generally, when I look at various movements, I don't see the radicals being ahead of the curve. Mary Wollestonecraft is much more reasonable than Betty Friednan, William Godwin much more reasonable than Peter Kropotkin, Martin Luther King much more reasonable than Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakhan.

I didn't really mean to stipulate that "new" in my thesis. A good editor would have caught it. You did and you get NOTHING. It was really just that such examples are fairly easy to point to. A re-invigorated movement ought to function in much the same manner.

For a re-invigorated movement, we can point to the modern conservative movement, of course, with (we'll say) its leading edge of Limbaugh and the dominionists, it's large centre portion which we can refer to as the "compassionate fascists" and the other trailing edge with its ragged and demoralized moderates.

Being "ahead of the curve" or "more reasonable" was the sort of criterion I suggested (unclearly) might come (likely will come) to dominate a movement, but that leaves unmentioned the real contribution made by the extreme end.

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sozobe wrote:

Yeah.

It gets at a larger part of what I remember of that discussion, though -- the whole "well they do it too" thing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some MoveOn people said, "Well, the [Republican equivalent of some sort] does it, we can't be all wimpy and miss getting any eyeballs."

Sorry to digress into a medium you have no access to, but that's exactly what I observe on "Radio America". They're a new, liberal talk radio company who got started up during the 2004 campaign. At first, most of the hosts tried to be intelligent and thoughtful. Now, all they do is out-Rush-Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh. The one conspicuous exception is the Al Franken Show, whose host continues to be intelligent and thoughtful. I'm sure one major argument in this shift was "well, that's how they do it! What's your problem?"

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I wish this was an easier matter than it is in reality. The analogy of the boxing ring versus the street fight may be quite imperfect here, but it ain't totally imperfect.

For example, with the recent SC ruling on re-districting, the example set in Texas seems likely to gain in popularity. It's repugnant, without question, and democracy can and will suffer the more it goes on. So what ought Dems to do if more jurisdictions controlled by Republicans ramp up their computers and start redrawing more lines?

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I found RadioAmerica quite boring. It is preaching to the converted in a very patronizing way. I can't imagine it is very effective in changing minds (but I can't imagine Rush Limbaugh is either).

MoveOn never clicked for me although I also read it during 2004. I never signed up for email from them and I haven't checked for a while.

I like DailyKos because it has a well defined purpose that it does well. It focuses on strategy and makes a convincing argument that progressives are most effective when they stay in the Democratic party (and make sure it wins) instead of working from outside.

Of course DailyKos is not an unbiased source for news and it doesn't pretend to be. It is strategy and framing (and a bit of caustic humor) by progressives for progressives.

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Thomas,

The reason we liberals are using the word "progressive" so much is because Republicans have successfully changed the meaning of the word "liberal" into something that doesn't describe us.

You are right that the ideas havent changed very much (although they are certainly needed more than ever). Government that serves people, economic fairness, civil rights... these are all things that need to be championed strongly. I believe that when they are, they are winning ideas.

I want the Democratic party to champion these ideas.

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What sources from 'your own side' do you tend to ignore?

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