Why is any criticism of a culture considered racist?

Really... I didn't know that. That particular chain market with the burned potato chips was lower priced than some other similar sized but a little further away markets. Well, hey, west los angeles is quite the varied place, though gang killings keep happening. The number of blocks one has to go to a regular market is not so many in contrast to south LA, where my husband grew up, a white boy, but still in a place with extremely low services and goods.

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Andrew Young quoted:

Quote:

Instead, people who have known Mr. Young for decades seem rather satisfied that his comment that Jewish, Arab and Korean store owners had "ripped off" black neighborhoods, "selling us stale bread and bad meat and wilted vegetables" had severed his link with his most high-profile client, Wal-Mart Stores, in whose defense he made the remark.

The problem I have with Andrew Young's comments is that they could be interpreted to mean that all Jewish, Korean and Arab store owners have ripped off black shoppers in black neighborhoods.

Had he objected to the exploitation without suggesting that all Jews, Koreans and Arabs are venial, I don't think that such a ruckus would have been started.

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I agree with you on that, Noddy. In my time, the store owners were Korean, and the one we knew in particular wasn't a venal fellow and whatever his produce wasn't much but was ok.

In contrast to one of my now local markets where the produce makes me wonder.

But I'm remember back to the (....) store, across from our studio. Slimos there, in many ways. True slime.

And I lived in an edge part of town, not deep inner city.

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ossobuco wrote:

Most small grocery stores, wherever they are, charge more, by necessity, having to do with volume purchased, etc. Still, I'm inclined to agree with a frowning view of some neighborhood stores and their produce. But my experience is no smart survey, and that could be done, these places still exist.

While it is true that economies of scale govern the prices which small store owners pay, and therefore what they charge, it is also undeniable that stores in poor neighborhoods habitually charge more than those in affluent neighborhoods. I used to shop at a national chain (which i will not name for obvious reasons), and would stop at the branch of the store in the poor neighborhood where i worked. I didn't pay much attention, but i remembered buying a pound of coffee (which is to say, 11 1/2 ounces in a one pound can--they all do it), and thinking that the price was a little steep. That weekend, i went to the same chain's branch in Upper Arlington (Ohio), which is an affluent neighborhood. The same can of coffee was selling for $0.89 less than at the other store. Over a period of weeks, i just went into the Linden store to compare prices--they ran 25% to 35% higher the price for the same product at the Upper Arlington store. How can they get away with this? In poor neighborhoods, many people lack basic transportation. They can ride a bus to work, but they can't buy perishable food and carry it very far on a bus without it spoiling. In fact, they might often shop by walking to the store and walking home, saving bus fare in that manner. Basically, stores in poor neighborhoods know that they have a largely "captive" clientele. I had often been told this was true, but didn't really pay any attention. But that really opened my eyes.

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Not directly answering Set, who on quick glance I don't disagree with anyway,

I was about to post this -

I agree with you on that, Noddy. In my time, the store owners were Korean, and the one we knew in particular wasn't a venal fellow and whatever his produce wasn't much but was ok. Some apples, some onions, not much.

In contrast to one of my now local markets where the produce makes me wonder. Land o'dreck.

But I'm remembering back to the (....) store, across from our studio. Slimos there, in many ways. True slime, I since learned purveyors of this and that. I don't remember exactly what these guys were, re heritage.

And I lived in an edge part of town, not deep inner city, especially right there, it was at the top of an area that had been rehabbed disconsolately for decades.

How to ascribe blame? Banks redlined.... people without an expansive culture of business acumen and no money didn't make some jumps.

I disagree with Andrew Young on WalMart, but see how he got there.

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Oh, yes, agree on captive clientele.

Still, many stores do this other places.

F/king vile in a city where much else is available within few miles if one had transportation.
Which is to say I have picked up a certain f/you aspect to marketing, re area.

So, now I live in west Albuquerque.

Whole Foods is, guessing, eight miles away. Trader Joes's is implanting itself (don't get me started) nearby to what they figure is the yup part of town, near Whole Foods. Wild Oats is about five miles away.
Sunflower is about five miles away.

Me, I get Brooks, of the previously mentioned lame produce section.

I'd be happy enough if the local coop weren't so dull when I visited.

It's too far for me to try to go over and volunteer.

I would like my qualms to be answered by new and wonderful markets.
Seems unlikely.

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OK, no, I don't disagree with Set, at all.

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Going back to the ethnic criticism - I remember when I first came to
the United States, everyone made fun of the Polish and the Italians (particularly true in NYC). My favorite show then was "Barney Miller"
where even the Chinese guy (or was he Korean?) got his quota.
They also had the stereotypical black shows, and even though it was
all in good fun, the implication of a less educated culture was prevalent.

Today, these shows would generate a small revolution.

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BubbaGumbo wrote:

"Hey Bubba, can you throw us an example to work with?"

Sure. The other day I was discussing the continued plight of African Americans with my friends. At one point in the debate, I began putting some of the blame on the immature/regressive culture of African American youths. Specifically, the culture is extremely materialistic, mysoginistic, and violent.My friends immediately jumped on me and called me racist and ignorant which is absurd. Obviously, this is a personal anecdote but I've witnessed similar events in public venues and on TV.

Sweet Jesus on the Cross, and the dominant white culture isn't?

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edit

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my edit was re myself's posting.

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kuvasz wrote:

BubbaGumbo wrote:
"Hey Bubba, can you throw us an example to work with?"

Sure. The other day I was discussing the continued plight of African Americans with my friends. At one point in the debate, I began putting some of the blame on the immature/regressive culture of African American youths. Specifically, the culture is extremely materialistic, mysoginistic, and violent.My friends immediately jumped on me and called me racist and ignorant which is absurd. Obviously, this is a personal anecdote but I've witnessed similar events in public venues and on TV.

Sweet Jesus on the Cross, and the dominant white culture isn't?

Bless you, Kuvasz.

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Quote:

an illustrative example, i think, is the wearing of veils by muslim women. if the women themselves do not find such a requirement oppressive, then it's nobody's business what they wear. of course it could be argued that coercion is coercion, even if the coerced agree with the practice that's being imposed on them.

I have very strong opinions on the wearing of the veil, particularly as we live in the 21st Centaury. I don't like my granddaughter to see it, it flies in the face of all the things that women have achieved (and died for).

I see many veiled woman in my job (full veil, not just a veil that leaves the face free) I know that their chances of gaining employment (rightly or wrongly) are virtually nil - many will not attend an interview with me without a male presence!?!?

And yet they still receive tax payers money while they 'look for work'.

I had a long and sustained issue with one woman who would not take the bus into the town centre for work, due to 'the calibre of the men on it'! This was a direct attack on MY culture - but her case was upheld on religious/human rights grounds, and we continue to pay her.

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An interesting question intelligently discussed (for the most part). It seems to me that we can make a distinction between things we dislike because of our personality configuration and things we formally disapprove of because of our culture's moral code.
I personally detest the practice of female clitorectemy and would gladly take actions to see it banned even if, hypothetically, all the women of a society practicing it contended that it was a culturally sacrosanct practice. If this were the case I could be accused of intercultural repression. The fact, however, if that young girls in such societies would undoubtedlly prefer that their culture gave up the practice--especially before it became their turn to undergo it.
It seems we can distinguish between EGOcentric projection--the projection of our individual values as we interpret the moral significance of another individual's actions--and ETHNOcentric projection--the projection of our society's values onto the customary actions of other societies. I favor a non-absolute version of cultural relativism, given that values tend to come from the socialization of individuals within their societies. How else do we normally judge other societies' customary actions except from the frame of reference of our cultural values (and how can the other societies avoid projecting their values onto their perception of our actions)?
Nevertheless, despite this "intellectual" position (i.e., cultural relativism), I am not personally tolerant of all of the customary actions of other societies (or of my socieety for that matter). I reject many actions for highly personal reasons, and this suggests that I (and others) am not totally shaped by my culture.

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smorgs wrote:

I see many veiled woman in my job (full veil, not just a veil that leaves the face free) I know that their chances of gaining employment (rightly or wrongly) are virtually nil - many will not attend an interview with me without a male presence!?!?

And yet they still receive tax payers money while they 'look for work'.

I had a long and sustained issue with one woman who would not take the bus into the town centre for work, due to 'the calibre of the men on it'! This was a direct attack on MY culture - but her case was upheld on religious/human rights grounds, and we continue to pay her.

hm, sounds like your job involves helping people find work? i can understand your frustration, but don't have any easy answers for how to deal with people whose religion prevents them from taking up most occupations. on the other hand, unless muslim women never ride the bus, the outcome of the last case seems unreasonable.

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I feel almost a revulsion for hip-hop culture. It seems to prevent its young practicioners from growing into the people they can become; it seems so escapist and retarded. But this has nothing to do with racism. I detest it equally when it is practiced by whites. Indeed, I experience a painful intercultural repulsion when it comes to virtually all of the entertainment styles of the youth generation.
I lived much of my youth in predominantly black south Los Angeles (the area of Adams and Vermont--USC was my playground). Most of my playmates were black. Years later many of my most comfortable relations were with black fellow employees in the post office. But the black youth culture of today is totally alien. I am very comfortable still with blacks of my generation. I find that many of them are also uncomfortable with hip-hop values. I suppose it's mainly an inter-generational thing.
By the way, "racism" is a purely SOCIAL phenomenon. Anthropology has long conclulded that there are no such things as biological races. As I said elsewhere genes exist, but they do not organize into biologically discreet phenomena called races. The term "social race" is sometimes used to indicate the use of the "concept of race" as a label in intergroup deprecations.

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I think it's much more acceptable to denigrate customs of cultures that are presumed to be socially above your own.

For example, Native Americans criticism of white European culture is acceptable and not the least bit "racist", while the reverse case is.

I think it looks like resistance to oppression in one direction, and bullying in the other direction.

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Well-put Eorl.

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Yes, VERY well-put (and observed), Eori. It seems to be a matter of political power, doesn't it? Racism is the use of mytho-biological inequalities to justify the economic and political exploitation of weaker ethnic communities. When it is used in retaliation, it is not considered "racism" because it serves only defensive rather than exploitative functions.

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eorl wrote:

I think it's much more acceptable to denigrate customs of cultures that are presumed to be socially above your own.

JL Nobody wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, VERY well-put (and observed), Eori. It seems to be a matter of political power, doesn't it? Racism is the use of mytho-biological inequalities to justify the economic and political exploitation of weaker ethnic communities. When it is used in retaliation, it is not considered "racism" because it serves only defensive rather than exploitative functions.
end of quote:

Is "denigration of customs of cultures" now equivalent to "The use of mytho-biological inequalities to justify the economic and political exploitation of weaker ethnic communities"

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Why is any criticism of a culture considered racist?

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