Trinity?

AM, Dok is not the only member of this forum to use the word bobble to show their disdain for scripture. One has only to look at the posts by believers on this forum to understand that, indeed, bobble is exactly what is taking place.

We say that we take things on faith and, in some way, God has allowed us to understand something others cannot. That being the case, I can't see how berating someone for lack of faith has any rhetorical merit.

It is up to us to find the words to help them understand.

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neologist wrote:

I could be wrong on this Scott. But any response I give would have to be in harmony with these two verses. (And a few more I'm sure I could find)

Job 14:12-15:
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
[14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
[15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."

Ecclesiastes 9:10:
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (See John 5:28)

Oh, that was 3. Did I say 2?
See. I was wrong.
Well you know us Witnesses, Scott.

Neo this will be the frist time I won't reply to your post in a negative way.
Reason?

Is because you at least SAID that.
I could be wrong too.
Shoot everyone could be wrong at that, and no church is right. LOL Now wouldn't that be something?
See Neo MOST and I MEAN LIKE 99.9% of ALL JW's I have met will not say

neologist wrote:

I could be wrong on this

and that JUST ERKS the crap out of me.
YOU as a JW have earned my respect which NO OTHER JW has ever gotten from me.
Very nice post too, and yes I know the JW doctrine.
They just like ALL CHURCHES indoctrinate you, they do not educate you on the word of god. That is one of the reasons I church hopped so much I wanted to be SURE that I was being told the TRUTH.

I do not deny those verses that you quoted.
But neither can I just throw away the verses I quoted.

So what does it mean that God is the GOd of the Living while at the same time when a person is dead they are doing nothing?

Well in BAPTIST doctrine there is no problem there.
The soul, spirit and body are seperate.
The body dies and does nothing no more till the resurrection while the spirit sleeps in heaven. And yes I believe everyone who has trusted in God goes to heaven not JUST 144,000.

Well till next time NEO I REALLY LIKE YOUR POST. Because of what you admitted. Have a wonderful day bud. Sense you have said that I will try my best not to be so snide with you no more either.

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Well, Scott, when two verses of the Bible seem to contradict, the first place I refer to for clarity is the Bible.

One can not be dead and alive at the same time, conscious and unconscious at the same time.

Can one have a soul and be a soul at the same time? Can one lose his life as if it were a tangible thing that could be possessed, lost or found? If the soul is who you are as a person, what is the spirit?

I contend the Bible has the answers.

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I can't bring myself to read this thread, but the title moves me to comment as follows: If the discussion has dealt with the age-old paradox of the unity of the three separate or distinguishable aspects of god (father, son and holy ghost), we should realize that we are discussing "ideas" in our heads not "objects" in external reality.

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neologist wrote:

AM, Dok is not the only member of this forum to use the word bobble to show their disdain for scripture. One has only to look at the posts by believers on this forum to understand that, indeed, bobble is exactly what is taking place.

We say that we take things on faith and, in some way, God has allowed us to understand something others cannot. That being the case, I can't see how berating someone for lack of faith has any rhetorical merit.

It is up to us to find the words to help them understand.

I realize he isn't the only one to do it, Neo. I've called at least one other person on it before. I just find it rude and disrespectful. I don't mock Doktor S for what he follows or doesn't and don't think anyone should do it to anyone.

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As discussed some time ago, "the Trinity" is another example of "the magic number three" common to many cultural traditions. (e.g. the three Gunas in Eastern religions, or "the Law of Three"). Hegel's dialectic "thesis, antithesis, synthesis could be considered a non-religious format. On the premise raised by JLN above, it easy to see that "transcendence" as an "idea" is psychologically well fitted to "three-ness" and the biblical details are cultural variants.

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neologist wrote:

Well, Scott, when two verses of the Bible seem to contradict, the first place I refer to for clarity is the Bible.

One can not be dead and alive at the same time, conscious and unconscious at the same time.

Can one have a soul and be a soul at the same time? Can one lose his life as if it were a tangible thing that could be possessed, lost or found? If the soul is who you are as a person, what is the spirit?

I contend the Bible has the answers.

One can not be dead and alive at the same time, conscious and unconscious at the same time.

Yes we can according to the bible.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

These four verses are not talking about PHYSICAL DEATH.
They are talking about spiritual death.
Those who are not of GOD are spiritually dead.
So yes you can be alive physically and be dead at the same time.

Can one have a soul and be a soul at the same time?
Yes

Can one lose his life as if it were a tangible thing that could be possessed, lost or found?

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The soul is not the spirit if it can be divided.
And there is another verse can't remember now where that seperates the soul and body.
So with those two verses you have a seperation of body soul and spirit and a creation (mankind) that is like unto God (father son holyspirit) they are 3 but one ( we are three but one).

If the soul is who you are as a person, what is the spirit?
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

That is an AWSOME ending question though NEO.

WHAT IS THE SPIRIT?
you are also asking at the same time
WHAT IS GOD?

Nice. All i can say is God is a Spirit. LOL I don't think the bible says he is anything more than that.

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Ok found the verses that seperate the body from the soul.

Here they are.

Laughingly there is three of them.
Trinity again anyone?

Isa 10:18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Body Soul Spirit

We are three.
Just like God

Father Son Holy Ghost.

Darn it Neo. Your going to make me post my Trinity speech arn't you dang it. LOL O well I work from 7 am to 7 pm est so I wont be able to get that posted till like close to around 9pm est today, but i will try. Talk to you later.

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Arella Mae wrote:

neologist wrote:
AM, Dok is not the only member of this forum to use the word bobble to show their disdain for scripture. One has only to look at the posts by believers on this forum to understand that, indeed, bobble is exactly what is taking place.

We say that we take things on faith and, in some way, God has allowed us to understand something others cannot. That being the case, I can't see how berating someone for lack of faith has any rhetorical merit.

It is up to us to find the words to help them understand.

I realize he isn't the only one to do it, Neo. I've called at least one other person on it before. I just find it rude and disrespectful. I don't mock Doktor S for what he follows or doesn't and don't think anyone should do it to anyone.

Some use this nonsense to evoke emotions in other posters. Some are very good at it. We all know who they are. As difficult as it may sometimes be, we should try to ignore these louts.

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Gotcha Intrepid. Thanx!

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JLNobody wrote:

I can't bring myself to read this thread, but the title moves me to comment as follows: If the discussion has dealt with the age-old paradox of the unity of the three separate or distinguishable aspects of god (father, son and holy ghost), we should realize that we are discussing "ideas" in our heads not "objects" in external reality.

I dont think the trinity has anything to do with anything. You can say Jesus is gods son and god all you what (i dont believe it but thats not what im debating here), But from where does it say the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. It just seams as if someone thought a Biune god was complete and this thoery of the trinity just arose caliming the Holy Spirit to be the completing part. It just doesnt make a lick of sense.

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EpiNirvana wrote:

JLNobody wrote:
I can't bring myself to read this thread, but the title moves me to comment as follows: If the discussion has dealt with the age-old paradox of the unity of the three separate or distinguishable aspects of god (father, son and holy ghost), we should realize that we are discussing "ideas" in our heads not "objects" in external reality.

I dont think the trinity has anything to do with anything. You can say Jesus is gods son and god all you what (i dont believe it but thats not what im debating here), But from where does it say the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. It just seams as if someone thought a Biune god was complete and this thoery of the trinity just arose caliming the Holy Spirit to be the completing part. It just doesnt make a lick of sense.

On page 5 of this thread I gave several instances where the New Testament refers to the Holy Spirit as a person, not an impersonal force, and that He is God.

Since the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible, it cannot technically be said that 'in X place the Bible states "the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity" '.

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I think where we go wrong is in the identity of the persons.
Consider this from John 17: 20-26:
"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one[/b], just as you, Father, are in union[/b] with me and I am in union[/b] with you, that they also may be in union[/b] with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one[/b] just as we are one[/b]. 23 I in union[/b] with them and you in union[/b] with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union[/b] with them."

HMM. Father, son and holy spirit; or father, son and congregation.

Or, perhaps father, son, holy spirit, and congregation.

A Quadrinity! Rolling Eyes

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Let's not overinterpret those written words.

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Exactly

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neologist wrote:

I think where we go wrong is in the identity of the persons.
Consider this from John 17: 20-26:
"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one[/b], just as you, Father, are in union[/b] with me and I am in union[/b] with you, that they also may be in union[/b] with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one[/b] just as we are one[/b]. 23 I in union[/b] with them and you in union[/b] with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union[/b] with them."

HMM. Father, son and holy spirit; or father, son and congregation.

Or, perhaps father, son, holy spirit, and congregation.

A Quadrinity!

PLEASE STOP USING AN INFERIOR TRANSLATION.

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

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Scott777ab wrote:

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

You can rightfully replace the (in's) with the word's (in, by, with).
KJV translations of the word used for (in)
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count
in 1902,
by 163,
with 140,
among 117,
at 113,
on 62,
through 39

So this verse could rightly be translated like the following
KJV Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] with me, and I iwith thee, that they also may be one with us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] among me, and I among thee, that they also may be one among us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] by me, and I iby thee, that they also may be one iby us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] through me, and I through thee, that they also may be one ithrough us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

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O yeah by the way neo i hate the word trinity it is so not what i believe the bible teaches I believe the bible teaches one god that is a TRIUNITY.
Thanks for bringing that to light.

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i dont think a single word can overthrough an entire belief system. So what if it says might or unity or us. Find some sold verses one way or anyother, even random speculation. Come on ppl!

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