Trinity?

Well, that settles it.

A few posts back Scott claimed you were using an inferior translation, Neo. Out of interest, what translations were you guys using?

I generally use the New World Translation, published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I suspect it is the publisher Scott takes issue with.

However, I also use the King James version and the Revised Standard version in my posts. There are currently 15 bookmarks in my religion folder and a scad of citations downloaded; so I take from everywhere.

Epinirvana does this help

1john 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

First off very well done! Finally some1 found a verse loud and clear.

But it actually goes:

Also this book was writen much after it had been etablished that Jesus was the Son and god in one, this is to far down the line to really give us a true thing of jesus rather a "widely believed fact".

Epi check out the greek.......
For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

agreement (in this verse)Greek Word: Ei|ß
Transliterated Word: heis
definition: ONE

If you want some verses that are super super old try genesis

Ge 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Ge 1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

It goes from plural to singular......One definition of Eloyhim(God) which is the hebrew used in these verses is (plural intensive - singular meaning) GOD

I heard a christian speaker the other day say the key to the entire bible is that god inspired it. If you believe that it is done, if you dont its a bit hard b/c you question its validiblity. BLIND FAITH, loud and clear.

Now Kate (if that is your real name) i hate this verse for the plain reason it is the old testament, a Jewish book....they dont have thier christ yet and this verse means nothing. Also he could be speaking to the angels. He created them after his own image and therefore same with us.

Next go never promised to sacrifice himslef, he just saida messiah, a savior. And the holy spirit was (in the bible) a real thing, but was made part of god after it was established the Jesus was god and the holy spirit completed that thoery.

Ok and for your greek here i go..... The Spirit, the water, and the blood. All part of Jesus' death, this inst show a truine god but reather that Jesus died in full. His blood separted from the water and he gave up his spirt. Both Body and Spirit were given up.

Im intrested in what youll respond.

Epi first off i dont see how you can discount the ot...Jews at that time ....(bf Christ came) Believed in the Messiah ...they believed he was God...there are so many verses written by prophets and one king (david) that speak of Christ....and i know many people say "well jews now and during Christ's time rejected" Yes, the ot even prophecied that would happen...and we know its not angels, bc nowhere in the bible does it say we are created in an angels image it always says Gods image....and it also says in (co 1:15,16) that Christ created all things...so those verses i gave are clear..... and the holy spirit in the ot has the same attributes as God. omnipresence( ps 139:7-10)...omniscience (is 40:13,14) he is called God (jer 31:31-34, with hebrews 10:15-17)
now there are also many more verses in the nt i can give if you would like them....

EpiNirvana wrote

Epi i think that you are taking this verse wrong....john is combatting two sets of people 1. those that don't believe Christ is the Messiah and 2. those that believe the "Christ spirit" departed from the man Jesus just prior to his death on the cross.
the water here is talking of his baptism. John is writing to show that God has given testimony to the deity of Christ throught his baptism and death.. the spirit is the HOly SPirit ..at Christ' baptism the Father and the HOly spirit testified to the son (Matt 3:16,17)
the blood is talking of the death of Christ it also testifies of who he was
(matt 27:54, Heb 9:14)

Exactly!

The Jews never thaugh there messiah was to be god himself, they may not have thought an angel but i dont think it really maters. God promised a savior, he never promised himself.

Ok, lets say the bible is true and Jesus is god and all that.... Does god really need three parts? It seams like a pointless concept to make god more comprehendable to humans. Jesus talks to god, but we know that cant be two seprate gods, so they put them together, and then the holy spirit became part of god, the part of god that is always with us. Its just man trying to explain god.

sorry epi that i didnt respond.....was out of town...........
EpiNirvana wrote

Well it's biblical and Im one of those people that believe all scripture is given by God.......

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Heres some scripture thats god breathed.....Clearly states there is no afterlife.

I could quote the scripture where the people, trying to flatter the king, shout It is the voice of a god, not a man!

Does that mean the Bible clearly teaches he had the voice of a god?

Cmon Epi. Pulling something like that out of context is really lame.

I was playing devils advocate. I could get a better arguemnt for this but this is waht i chose.