God= divine Ogre analogy.

this is what i said...

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as for isaiah 14:12...Jesus use of verse 12 to describe satans fall (luke 10:18) has led bible scholars to view this verse in reference to satan.

My whole point is that its a general christian view that Lucifer is satan in this verse...(I even said i didnt know and would have to look up more on the name lucifer in other places)....this verse is reference to satan...even one of the sites you gave me to "disprove me" says that its the view of most christians...
Wolf O DOnnell said

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When I have to make a scholarly argument, I provide evidence for both sides to show I'm not biased and then if the evidence for one side is overwhelmingly in favour of that side, then I say that that is more true than the other.

lol you did not give those sites to show both sides you gave me those sites to prove me wrong...but you erred when you didnt search those sites well enough...and are now backtracking...
you said

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Isaiah is a literal prophecy against Babylon. I've shown you the verses that prove it, yet you don't want to believe it as a literal prophecy against Babylon. No, you want to believe it as being about Satan, even though no mention of Satan is made. Shall I direct you to a Christian site that talks of the passage as being one directed against the King of Babylon? Not Satan?

So what is your point...you are even proving my point by giving me sites that say this verse most likely is reference to satan... I gave you several commentaries to look up but you wont...yet expect me to search your sites...? i even said that i acknowledge that some christians may not see this as a reference to satan...oh and btw if you would have read the commentaries they explain how this verse is about the king of babylon being used by satan and how that one verse is reference to satan...also they give other verses in the ot that show this...I stand by my original statement...Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to satan...sure i will concede that some scholars may not see this, but i have yet to read of an accredited bible scholar or christian that says this verse in no way references satan....
and this is a literal interpretation....bc the king of babylon was literally being used by satan...and satan literally fell from heaven..(if you believe the commom consensus of main stream christians)...

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Remember how I told you to put ="name" right after the

kate4christ03 wrote:

this discussion, but I see you've forgotten my advice already.

kate4christ03 wrote:
My whole point is that its a general christian view that Lucifer is satan in this verse... (I even said i didnt know and would have to look up more on the name lucifer in other places)....this verse is reference to satan...even one of the sites you gave me to "disprove me" says that its the view of most christians...

Where? I've read through the sites and nowhere in any of the sites does it state that most Christians believe that Isaiah 14:12 is a reference to Satan. Go on. Quote it.

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lol you did not give those sites to show both sides you gave me those sites to prove me wrong...but you erred when you didnt search those sites well enough...and are now backtracking...

You didn't read what I said, did you? I said I provide evidence for both sides and the one that has the overwhelming evidence is the one that is more right. Didn't those sites overwhelmingly state that the King of Babylon reference is more correct?

It's you that's backtracking here, trying to defend a "majority of Christians" viewpoint when nothing supports it. First you stated, all, now you state most, but in both cases, you fail to prove it.

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So what is your point...you are even proving my point by giving me sites that say this verse most likely is reference to satan...

You didn't read the sites, did you? You only just read the one. Only one of the sites stated this.

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I gave you several commentaries to look up but you wont...

No, you didn't. You gave me names. If you were to give me commentaries, you'd have to give me more than just the author's names. You have to give me the name of the commentary (what is the name of the book etc. etc.), what page it is on and a lot more information than just the names.

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yet expect me to search your sites...?

I gave you direct links to my evidence. You did not. You didn't even give me the names of your sites. So unlike you, I have to search for your sites before searching through the sites to read your evidence.

Now I thought you mentioned it here, but apparently you didn't. There's a verse in Ezekiel which would be far more suited to your Satan is a fallen angel hypothesis. Isaiah 14:12, though? Nope. It's not it. It doesn't, Oh you who is like the Morning Star. It states directly calls the King of Babylon, the Morning Star, which...

...which would make a lot of sense in the term of Rastafarianism. If you interpret that passage as referring to Satan, you are in effect stating that the King of Babylon is Satan. That would explain why Rastafarians think of Babylon as a sort of Hell that opposes Zion and Ja.

Hm, interesting... I never thought about Rastafarianism that way.

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Wolf O DOnnell wrote

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Isaiah is a literal prophecy against Babylon. I've shown you the verses that prove it, yet you don't want to believe it as a literal prophecy against Babylon. No, you want to believe it as being about Satan, even though no mention of Satan is made. Shall I direct you to a Christian site that talks of the passage as being one directed against the King of Babylon? Not Satan?

first off i never said this wasnt a literal prophecy about the king of babylon. It's evident that it is. I just said that bible scholars believe verse 12 is a reference to satan.
I even conceded that maybe not all scholars and christians believe this exogesis about this text...and those sites you gave show that general christian belief is that this verse is a reference to satan....i pasted from those sites go back and read em..........You can disagree but i stand by what i said that this verse is a reference to satan....even Christ points out that satan is a fallen angel....read the verse slowly.. if you believe this is a literal prophecy how could a human king fall from the sky

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I have been following this conversation and I guess I'm a bit confused. In the King James Version of the Bible, it actually says Lucifer. Wolfie, what is your problem with that? Sorry to interject but I would like to keep following the conversation and not get lost.

Thanx!

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lol arella mae ...the topic has changed so much im getting confused also....

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Quote:

I gave you direct links to my evidence. You did not. You didn't even give me the names of your sites. So unlike you, I have to search for your sites before searching through the sites to read your evidence.

sorry i should have been more clear...Matthew Henry and John macarthur are the names of their commentaries...i dont have sites for them just the books themselves...but you can probably look online for matthew henry' commentary or john macarthur's commentary and it may help you....

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Matthew Henry Commentary:

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC00000.HTM

John MacArthur Commentary:

http://www.freebiblesoftware.com/library.asp?library=64 (Looks like you have to pay for that one.)

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It seems almost universally accepted that when one speaks of Lucifer, one speaks of Satan.

Lucifer proper, also known as...

Abaddon (Revelation 9:11).
Accuser of our brethren (Revelation 12:10).
Adversary (1 Peter 5:8).
Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:14).
Angel of the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11).
Antichrist (1 John 4:3).
Apollyon (Revelation 9:11).
Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24).
Belial (2 Corinthians 6:15).
Crooked serpent (Isaiah 27:1).
Devil (Matthew 4:1).
Dragon (Isaiah 27:1; Revelation 12:3; 20:2).
Enemy (Matthew 13:39).
Father of lies (John 8:44).
God of this World (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1).
Liar (John 8:44).
Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12).
Lying spirit (1 Kings 22:22).
Murderer (John 8:44).
Old serpent (Revelation 12:9; 20:2).
Piercing serpent (Isaiah 27:1).
Power of darkness (Colossians 1:13).
Prince of the devils (Matthew 12:24).
Prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2).
Prince of this world (John 14:30).
Roaring lion (1 Peter 5:8).
Ruler of this world (John 12:31; 16:11).
Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1:6; John 13:27; Acts 5:3; 26:18; Romans 16:20).
Serpent (Genesis 3:4, 14; 2 Corinthians 11:3).
Son of the Morning (Isaiah 14:12).
Spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).
Swine (Matthew 7:6).
Tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5).
Unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43).
Wicked one (Matthew 13:19, 38).

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yes intrepid...some of those verses you posted are ones that i have given.... Very Happy

thank you

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Arella Mae wrote:

I have been following this conversation and I guess I'm a bit confused. In the King James Version of the Bible, it actually says Lucifer. Wolfie, what is your problem with that? Sorry to interject but I would like to keep following the conversation and not get lost.

Thanx!

Ah, the King James Version. Some people debate that it isn't as accurate the NIV because the KJV translates from a later text. In fact, since Lucifer is a Latin word, the KJV is probably wrong in that aspect. I've given the original Hebrew in a previous post and you'll see that the original does not translate directly to Lucifer.

I also have a problem with NIV's translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9, where it states homosexual offenders. As the word is a modern one coined in in the last two centuries, NIV is inaccurate in stating homosexual. In fact the variations between Bibles of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is astounding compared to other verses...

You get homosexuals, homosexual offenders, abusers of their own kind and even effeminate (which kinda suggests that women shouldn't be so effeminate or that women will never go to Heaven, which I find a rather bizarre translation).

That is why I always advocate searching for things in more than one version of the Bible, which I admittedly failed to do this time round. It could explain some of the mistakes I made, now that I think about it.

There is one curious thing, though.

I came here to disprove Kate's contention that all people believed that Isaiah 14:12 was a reference to Satan or something along those lines.

Thing is, this topic isn't about Satan. It's about God being an ogre. How on Earth did we get so side-tracked? I can figure out how we got side-tracked into the discussion about Isaiah 14:12, but how did we get side-tracked into the discussion on Satan in the first place?

Did someone get tired of trying to defend or accuse God of something?

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WOLF if ya want the most accurate translation of the hebrew/ greek i suggest the new american standard bible........its pretty much verbatim

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kate4christ03 wrote:

WOLF if ya want the most accurate translation of the hebrew/ greek i suggest the new american standard bible........its pretty much verbatim

True, but even it has its flaws...

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Ver6.htm

Now, shall we get back to the original topic, before this thing gets locked for going off-topic?

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Speaking of which...what happened to Pork, the originator of this thread who disappeared after 3 posts?

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Suuueee! Suuueee!
Here Pork Pork Pork!

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Are you being an ogre, neo?

Laughing

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No place to hide. . .

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/theyareontome.gif

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WOLF...just waiting for your response Very Happy

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kate4christ03 wrote:

WOLF...just waiting for your response

To what? You want me to say, I'm wrong and you're right? Is that it?

No. Not until you admit that you were wrong in stating that all Christians believe that Lucifer = Satan and that you were wrong in saying Isaiah 14:12 is a direct reference to Satan.

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Quote:

Not until you admit that you were wrong in stating that all Christians believe that Lucifer = Satan and that you were wrong in saying Isaiah 14:12 is a direct reference to Satan.

ok have you not read any posts i've written...lol....let me state one more time then im moving on.......i conceded and said sure maybe not all christians believe that ....but i've yet to meet any that dont Laughing

.......also you have not given any accredited christian scholars exogesis on isaiah 14:12 saying this isnt a reference to satan.... and dont use those sites you posted earlier, bc as i posted from them, they said that its common consensus of christians that satan is lucifer and that this verse is a reference to satan....even if its subtle...and also others on this discussion have given you references and verses on this belief.........

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You all realize that the words lucifer, satan, and devil, are all titles, do you not? Just the same as god, lord, senator and dweeb.

That we have chosen to personify the title Satan (rebel, opposer) with the individual who became the Devil (slanderer) does not change their generic meaning.

We do not know and may never know the true name of the creature we refer to as Satan. No doubt his name will be stricken from the cosmic memory as his very life will likewise be destroyed in the lake of fire.

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God= divine Ogre analogy.

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