God= divine Ogre analogy.

i posted that twice my bad.... Embarrassed

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Jesus teachings are most important, weather you believ he is messiah or not everyone should learn to treat on another....He didnt die for our sins he died b/c of the pharisses have there thunder taken by someone else. And them being as powerful as they were they got the ppl to join in the riot

um have ya read the bible??? its pretty clear he came to die for our sins...

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Yes i have cover to cover.... and from kindergarnten till high school private school christ education via my parents, many many years of church, i know what im talking about.

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The scripture does not present the Genesis serpent as Satan. That interpretation doesn't even make sense on face value. Why would all the snakes on Earth be punished for what Satan done? Furthermore, in order to say that the serpent is Satan one must call all modern snakes Satan's offspring because it those snakes that were to strike at the heals of mankind from that day forward. To think snakes are the spawn of Satan is to be a victim of snakephobia and possibly psychosis also.

Even further, God curses all of the wild animals and the curse given to the serpent is the greatest--this clearly implies that the serpent was also a wild animal but received the greatest curse because it had immediate involvement in the transgression. One might ask, what was the curse on all the wild animals? The Book of Jubilees, which isn't included in the Bible because it is essentially just a smaller form of Genesis but is purported to be the revelation of history from God to Moses, and at 3:28 says "And on that day was closed the mouth of all beasts, and of cattle, and of birds, and of whatever walketh, and of whatever moveth, so that they could no longer speak: for they had all spoken one with another with one lip and with one tongue."

The verse in Revelations 12:9 does not talk about the serpent in Genesis. Revelations 12 makes it blatantly clear that Satan is a huge dragon. The dragon is so large that it could swipe its tail and make one-third of the stars in the sky fall to the Earth. Satan, the ancient serpent that had limbs that allowed it to fly and was extremely large, was not the same little serpent mentioned in Genesis that had its limbs removed.

The "Genesis serpent is Satan" interpretation is extremely flawed. The idea collapses under even the smallest amount of scrutiny.

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The dragon is so large that it could swipe its tail and make one-third of the stars in the sky fall to the Earth

um many parts of revelation are symbolic......the third of the stars that fell bc of the dragon(satan) are the angels that followed satan when he rebelled...and i dont believe the book of jubilee(mormon right?) noone has to believe the serpent is satan but scripture shows it is...

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megamanXplosion wrote:

The scripture does not present the Genesis serpent as Satan. That interpretation doesn't even make sense on face value. Why would all the snakes on Earth be punished for what Satan done? Furthermore, in order to say that the serpent is Satan one must call all modern snakes Satan's offspring because it those snakes that were to strike at the heals of mankind from that day forward. To think snakes are the spawn of Satan is to be a victim of snakephobia and possibly psychosis also...

I think its ophidiophobia, mega. I would think you would find it evident that Satan used some ruse to make it appear that the serpent spoke. The condemnation to crawl and eat dust must contain some symbloism since it appears in context with the messianic prophecy and the heel wound.

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EpiNirvana wrote:

Yes i have cover to cover.... and from kindergarnten till high school private school christ education via my parents, many many years of church, i know what im talking about.

You may not get total agreement on that.

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Firstly, let me teach you something so I don't have to edit your quotes so much.

After you put in the quote tags [ quote ] (but without the spaces) type in ="name" immediately after

kate4christ03 wrote:

have to type in "name wrote:" before every quote. Hope you find that useful.

kate4christ03 wrote:
even if you dont believe its prophetic or that satan is the serpent, scripture shows it and i believe scripture...

No, your interpretation of scripture shows it. I read the same passage and don't see any prophesy whatsoever and can sincerely not see any prophesy in it. I'm no less intelligent than you, yet we don't get the same information from the same text.

That clearly shows that the Scripture can be reinterpreted many ways. You believe it's right, but you've got nothing to prove it right. Same goes for my assertion that the Genesis passage isn't prophetic.

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Satab in hebrew is !tX which means superhuman adversary...even the old testament shows that satan was a fallen angel who rebelled against God and tempted ppl to sin etc....Job 1, Isa 14:12, Zech 3:1-2....
Christ even taught on satan and warned us about him......Mt 12:26, Luke 10:18, luke 22:31...and many more

Job 1? That proves nothing.

Look. Go to Biblegateway. It's very useful Bible source.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201&version=31

Look at the bottom of the page. You'll find that Satan means accuser. If Satan really was God's adversary, do you think they'd be talking so chummily to each other? No. Satan is obviously being portrayed as one of God's angels, and the title of accuser possibly means he's like some kind of prosecutor.

Oh and Isaiah 14 is talking about the King of Babylon. It clearly states that in the passages before Isa 14:12. Did you know that Babylon is a perversion of the actual Babylonian name, Babilum, which means Gate of God? It's very clear when you know this that Isa 14:12 is actually talking about Babylon's King. I mean come on! The city is named Gate of God for crying out loud!

Also, read through Zechariah 3 again. Yes, the Lord rebukes Satan but for acting too hastily.

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The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! he LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
Zechariah 3:2.

The idea of Satan as the Devil is a Christian invention, as evidenced by the fact that only the New Testament portray Satan as some kind of anti-God force.

It takes a big stretch of imagination to believe that the Old Testament portrays him as anything other than one of God's servants.

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um that is what Christ taught ......he himself taught that he had to die for our sins and that only by his death and resurrection could we live...i understand that you dont feel its important but Christ surely did bc he talked on it quite a bit and even died for us.

And he talked quite a lot about how we should treat one another.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

. . .Look at the bottom of the page. You'll find that Satan means accuser. If Satan really was God's adversary, do you think they'd be talking so chummily to each other? No. Satan is obviously being portrayed as one of God's angels, and the title of accuser possibly means he's like some kind of prosecutor. . .

Yes, but the ones he is prosecuting are God's loyal ones. His accusation goes all the way back to his words in Eden where he accused God of being a liar withholding something desirable from Adam and Eve. He further insinuated that humans (and, by extension, the entire universe) would be better off doing things on their own and that folks serve God only out of selfishness.

This is the fundamental issue raised in the Garden of Eden: Does God have the right to exercise sovereignty over intelligent creation?

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ok wolf ty for the quote instructions Very Happy

alright first off satan is an adversary or accuser I dont disagree with you...he is called the accuser of the brethren...and i guess we will have to agree to disagree on that verse in genesis being prophetic.

I dont see your point on Job 1....Satan was a fallen angel...God is sovereign. Why wouldnt God allow satan to come to him for the purpose of seeing if one man of God could fall..God knew the outcome and was proving a point to satan that the "elect of God" wouldnt fall away...
as for isaiah 14:12...Jesus use of verse 12 to describe satans fall (luke 10:18) has led bible scholars to view this verse in reference to satan.also look at verse 13 what human king can possibly put a throne above God in the heavens...its talking about satan (fallen angel)..I dont see how you think satan is a worker of GOd... if you would like more references of christian teaching on this...check out some commentaries...ie Matthew henry, John Macarthur....

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neologist wrote:

Yes, but the ones he is prosecuting are God's loyal ones.

And the people being prosecuted in our courts are our own citizens. Your point being?

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His accusation goes all the way back to his words in Eden where he accused God of being a liar withholding something desirable from Adam and Eve. He further insinuated that humans (and, by extension, the entire universe) would be better off doing things on their own and that folks serve God only out of selfishness.

Now you're reading a lot from Genesis. As far as I'm concerned there is no mention of Satan there, or at least not an adversary that used to be an angel anyway.

kate4christ03 wrote:

I dont see your point on Job 1....Satan was a fallen angel...

Says you, but Job 1 says nothing of the sort. It just has him in the role of a prosecutor. There is nothing there to say that he was fallen. You ask any Jew and they'll reject the idea that Satan is God's adversary.

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God is sovereign.

And Job 1 makes it seem as if Satan is acting like God's Crown Prosecutor, a servant of God, not God's enemy.

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Why wouldnt God allow satan to come to him for the purpose of seeing if one man of God could fall... God knew the outcome and was proving a point to satan that the "elect of God" wouldnt fall away...

Because it's unnecessary.

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as for isaiah 14:12...Jesus use of verse 12 to describe satans fall (luke 10:18) has led bible scholars to view this verse in reference to satan.

That is taking the verse of 14:12 out of context, however. When you take things out of context, you can make them mean anything you want.

For example, I remember someone on these forums managed to take all sorts of quotes from the Bible out of context and managed to prove that Jesus = Lucifer.

The entire part of Isaiah 14 is a statement on the King of Babylon. If you read Isaiah 14:12 in the context of the rest of the passage, then there is no denying the fact that it is referring to the King of Babylon.

If Isaiah 14:12 really is about Satan, then it's out of place. Because Isaiah 13 talks about a prophecy against Babylon. Isaiah 14 is a continuation of that prophecy and continues talking about the King of Babylon. Isaiah 14:13-23 is still talking about the King of Babylon, because it clearly refers to a man that overthrew cities and that of all the kings of the nations, he would not lie in state.

The entire section of the Bible of Isaiah 14:3-23 is a taunt to the King of Babylon. It even states it clearly in Isaiah 14:3-4...

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On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!

Isaiah 14:3-4

And the taunt continues without break up until 14:24.

Isaiah 13 to Isaiah 14:23 is a prophecy against Babylon, not Satan. Babylon. It even states clearly at the start of Isaiah 13, "A Prophecy against Babylon". Only at 14:24 does the title change to "A Prophecy against Assyria".

It's in black and white, written there as clear as day. If you believe in the Bible as being literal, you can't deny the fact that Isaiah 13 to Isaiah 14:23 is a literal prophecy against the nation of Babylon, because it literally states it is a prophecy against Babylon in black and white.

The fact that in Luke 10:18, Jesus uses similar language to describe Satan is irrelevant.

The Bible is full of varying accounts of people or things being thrown down from on high, from the Tower of Babel (which is actually a perversion of the name, Babilu, and therefore the Tower of Babel is once again another reference to Babylon), to the King of Babylon, to Satan and even the Romans.

Just because he uses similar language means nothing.

Lots of people in the Bible are accounted as having ascended to Heaven, but that doesn't mean they're all Jesus Christ.

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I dont see how you think satan is a worker of GOd... if you would like more references of christian teaching on this...check out some commentaries...ie Matthew henry, John Macarthur....

It's very simple.

God is the most powerful being in the Universe. He is omnipotent and omniscient. A being that is omnipotent and omniscient, that could do anyting, clearly wouldn't let Satan exist as anything other than his servant.

To claim otherwise is to acknowledge the fact that Satan is a god, equal but opposite to God. That would make Christianity a dual theistic religion with two gods. And I don't know about you, but I can't accept the idea of Satan being a god.

Heck, if I were to rank God and Satan on a scale of disbelief with 1 being believable and 10 being unbelievable God would be an 8, but Satan would be a 10.

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When I was an elementary school student, I asked my mother how the Crucifixion could have benefitted people on other planets and she answered that maybe they were so good that they didn't need to be Redeemed. I then asked the nun who taught my class and she suggested that perhaps Christ died again and again. Another student wondered whether the crucifixion was a simultaneous event throughout the universe.

We have to keep in mind that the history of mankind is full of human sacrifice and that the crucifixion is something of an historical response.

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Wolf... Christ taught that satan fell from heaven...Christ taught satan was an accuser and adversary....those are his words...that is why people take chp 14:12 to be a reference to satan bc Christ said it......jews may not believe...but they also dont believe Christ is the Messiah or son of God...Christians believe satan is a fallen angel........and Christ himself states it in the verse i gave in the previous post..
also Christ said this: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: mt25:41...you said you are familiar with Christ's teachings...get a concordance type in satan or devil and see how Christ portrays him...He isnt a servant of God...he is a fallen angel who is doomed for destruction......
you can disagree bc that is your choice, but no christian or bible scholar denies that satan was portrayed as a fallen angel...who is wicked....

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I have to remind folks that snakes have been attached to gods and demi-gods world-wide for a long time. Part of the fascination with snakes is their ability to burrow in the earth which makes them closely related to the divine earth as mother.

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Another consideration: the opposition of Lucifer -- the Light Bearer -- to Michael -- the archangel who is mysteriously worshiped as a saint (human) across Europe from vantage points and isolated mounds.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Wolf... Christ taught that satan fell from heaven...

In reference to Satan, I don't care what he taught. Isaiah 14:12 is not a reference to Satan and never has been. It's not about a question of belief when it comes to this particular passage. Isaiah 13-14:23 very clearly states it's about the Babylon and its King, in black and white. It clearly has nothing to do with Satan and is clearly not a reference to Satan.

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Christ taught satan was an accuser and adversary. Those are his words. That is why people take chp 14:12 to be a reference to satan bc Christ said it.... and Christ himself states it in the verse I gave in the previous post..

Jesus said nothing of the sort. He stated that he saw Satan fall. That's about it. He didn't state Isaiah 14:12 is about Satan, because everybody around him knew that it wasn't.

Isaiah clearly talks about the destruction of Babylon, Assyria, the Philistines, Tyre, Eboam (wherever the Heck that might be), Egypt etc. Any talk of Satan is clearly out of place and would be nonsensical in a section of the book dedicated to the destruction of the mortal enemies of the Jews and Jesus, being a devout Jew, would have known that.

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also Christ said this: Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: mt25:41...

Yes, and the the entire section was talking about the rewards of helping those in need. You focused on the devil and the angel, when you should have focused on what the King felt. He was clearly angry. "Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels," he said. That is his expression of rage.

The entire story in that section wasn't about the Devil (note, it doesn't state Satan). It was a story about being kind to strangers, about doing unto others as you wish them to do unto you.

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you can disagree bc that is your choice, but no christian or bible scholar denies that satan was portrayed as a fallen angel...who is wicked....

True, no one could state that Satan wasn't portrayed as a fallen angel and be telling the truth. But it is also true that Satan has also been portrayed as a servant of God.

And here I shall tie this back to the original thread, because I've realised we've gone horribly off topic.

He has been portrayed as a Servant of God, and if his reward is to be defeated and punished (not actually destroyed. The Bible never says anything about his destruction, as far as I can remember. Defeated and imprisoned yes, but not destroyed), then that is a unjust reward which just goes to prove that the God = ogre analogy is very apt.

(Yeah, sorry, I couldn't think up of a better way to tie all this back into the original topic).

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

. . .
Now you're reading a lot from Genesis. As far as I'm concerned there is no mention of Satan there, or at least not an adversary that used to be an angel anyway. . .
God is the most powerful being in the Universe. He is omnipotent and omniscient. A being that is omnipotent and omniscient, that could do anyting, clearly wouldn't let Satan exist as anything other than his servant.

To claim otherwise is to acknowledge the fact that Satan is a god, equal but opposite to God. That would make Christianity a dual theistic religion with two gods. And I don't know about you, but I can't accept the idea of Satan being a god.

Heck, if I were to rank God and Satan on a scale of disbelief with 1 being believable and 10 being unbelievable God would be an 8, but Satan would be a 10.

I should point out that Revelation 12:9 refers to Satan as ". . . the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth." Truly, Satan exists now only as a servant or object lesson, that his allegations may be proved false. The book of Revelation also includes the foretelling of Satan's demise.

Also, you should not confuse God's power of foreknowledge, which includes his free will, with the necessity often implied in the term omniscience.

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That's right, because if you do, Neo's exegetical house of cards begins to shake, rattle and roll . . .

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Setanta wrote:

That's right, because if you do, Neo's exegetical house of cards begins to shake, rattle and roll . . .

And we may be sure that Setanta's atheism comes, not from his analytical rejection of organized religion, but by an ancient confluence of the stars.

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WOLF O DONNELL WROTE

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In reference to Satan, I don't care what he taught

I find it ironic that you have said in previous posts that Jesus was a good teacher and we need to heed his teachings yet reject the one that refutes what you believe. Jesus is clear that the devil is going to everlasting fire. Jesus also teaches that the devil(satan) is wicked. You will find no verse in the bible that says satan is a servant of God.

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Isaiah 14:12 is not a reference to Satan and never has been. It's not about a question of belief when it comes to this particular passage

all christians and bible scholars and messianic jews beleive this is a reference to satan. I choose to agree with them.

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Yes, and the the entire section was talking about the rewards of helping those in need. You focused on the devil and the angel, when you should have focused on what the King felt. He was clearly angry. "Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels," he said. That is his expression of rage. The entire story in that section wasn't about the Devil (note, it doesn't state Satan). It was a story about being kind to strangers, about doing unto others as you wish them to do unto you.

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!lol....we arent talking about rewards or good works the subject was about satan......i used that verse to show that satan is portrayed by Christ himself as a wicked individual......also another verse i gave earlier in revelation that neo again posted states that satan is the ancient serpent....and there are more verses in revelation that show satan is wicked and goes to everlasting punishment....

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God= divine Ogre analogy.

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