Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

It is not the conscience that is of issue but what the conscience represents. It represents a virtue that is in heaven that is eternal and created in the image of God. If it were the conscience that held the importance then it would be the ego that would seek it's own glory. But if it is the spirit that holds the virtue then it is God that is given the glory. It is the glory bestowed upon the true God that receives a just reward.

also
1Co 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The angels were created "before" Eden...

But God created his own "image" in Adam/humans, this image is "spirit" also. Theoretically, the angels were spiritual but not created in the image of God.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven [angels] and the earth.

Comment:
That was when the spiritual angels were created, In heaven in the verse Genesis 1:1, the human spirit was not "created" until:

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image [spirit], in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Comment: God's image is spirit because God is Spirit. The spirit in humans was created after God began reckoning time in days, not eons.


To "create" something is to bring into existence something that has never been before.

So this shows a second creation of spiritual beings (angel's spirit first/human's spirit second). This image/spirit conditionally in humans was lost by Adam and Eve and regained in a deeper way by Jesus Christ and made available secondly as seed to humans.

Humans are spiritual like the angels but humans differ from the angels in that humans are born and created in the image of God.

Thus the human spirit is incorruptible and contains the righteousness of God. Yet it is only an image but not the actual thing that the image represents.

Nonetheless, it is still the image of God.

Ro 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Ro 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Comment:
The spirit is an image of God's righteousness it is our personal guide it is visionary.

jesus was a homo

agreed he was pretty gay

Because the ego brings suffering upon itself, it is conflicted. Awareness of this is what we call our conscience.

Maybe he was a homo, but there is nothing in the Bible that actually backs up that claim.

Jesus Christ was, let's say tolerant of certain law breakers. But he was not tolerant of simply unbridled sex with various partners.

You are welcome to your opinion but this thread requires chapter and verse to substantiate a position not just accusations.

If you don't have a chapter and verse that you can direct us to to back that opinion up then it will reside with all of the other far fetched unsupported opinions that have no "Biblical" support.

The conscience is devoid of God it is a psychological word that is limited by the same limits of science. Thus it is still part of the ego.

Only when the ego is confronted by humility toward God is the conscience served in it's full capacity.

God is required for the conscience to be fully actualized.

One must become humble before God before one can humble themselves before their own ego and before others.

Without this humility of God the conscience only operates by layers of guilt and hidden motivations.

God is required to lift the burdens of the ego to truly free the ego. It is in this process that the conscience is liberated from it's own manipulative cycles.

Judge not lest ye be judged...

The definition may be limited by science, but in what sense is one's experience of conscience limited by science?

Oh? So, do you think your conscience is bigger than mine?

I disagree. The ego manipulates, not the conscience. The conscience is in conflict with the ego... or, it may be more accurate to say that the conscience is that part of the ego that is in conflict with itself.

So, why is anyone arguing with Rexred? Do you think it will be useful?

Rex has a habit of ignoring my questions, preferring to answer the ones he thinks I should have asked, instead. But, he's got a pretty good hold on his temper. . . As long as you're willing to endure his scriptural tangents you can just keep asking, and eventually he'll answer (most of the time).

What question is it that you perceive that I have avoided?

Easy, RexRed. You haven't avoided anything. You just like to give very long, multi-part answers. . . that's all.

This took me a few hours to write. I hope I haven't made too many typos. I think my logic is sound and representative of what the Bible is actually trying to say. It may seem a bit repetitive but it is exhaustive.

When you break down the components of what we are you come to three parts. One part is the body, one is the soul, and the other is the spirit. Everyone has one of each that is alive. Everyone has a body, everyone has a soul and everyone has spirit. The quality and character of each becomes the issue.

The body: is it whole, is it healthy, is it physically strong and robust?

The soul: is it joyful or is it subdued?

The spirit: is it good or is it evil?

This is rather complex but if you just keep body, soul and spirit in mind it will become simpler to grasp.

When we are born into this world we receive the spirit of the world. This spirit is inherently evil and corrupt. All people are born with it. The only way to change this spirit is for someone who is spiritually learned enough to have received the good spirit to "sanctify you".

This does not mean you have received the good spirit it just means you have spirit through this other person until you are spiritually mature enough to make a choice as to which spirit you want to have born within. The mind learns these ideas from others the same way it eventually does by the spirit itself once born inside.

This is sanctification, a circle of protection. This sanctification is usually given to a child by either or both parents depending on if the parents have received the holy spirit. So right from the start of life the spirit is playing a role in the development of a person's mind. This spirit can be bestowed by any caretaker of a spiritual child. This person becomes a conduit to the spirit. Taken that we are all born with the "evil" spirit we see differences in people. Some come to live a quality existence and some are drawn into many trials and tribulations.

Sometimes we see good people die and sometimes bad people win. The question is why? The theists have no answer, this quandary has left the world in spiritual desolation. But there is an answer. We have to want to desire to learn it because it takes dedication to thought and understanding. We need to break every element down to it's simplest denominator then scrutinize them until the truth appears.

Somewhere within the natural body and soul there is a worldly consciousness. This word consciousness is where we derive the word conscience. This consciousness involves the mind and what is referred to as the heart. The reason why I have loved the Bible for so long is because it is a book that teaches you how the mind really works. The psychology of the Bible is almost exactly opposite to what the psychology of science is today. Besides the psychology of science is incomplete and lacking vital parts namely the spirit and God.

For me to express this to you so plainly should indicate how much thought I have put into this subject to not only understand it myself but to explain it in a "conscious" manner. So you could call me a sort of psychologist or therapist.

Back to the mind...

The Bible teaches that "the heart" is the inner most part of the mind. Thus this would imply there are two parts to the mind the outermost part and the innermost part. Psychologically and Biblically the heart is not the physical organ pumping blood through your body, the heart is in the brain. When you feel something in your chest, a various feeling, this feeling is due to a thought that you have placed in your mind. So you place a thought in your mind (heart) and your chest only responds to the thought in the heart of your mind. Your heart is a slave to your mind. If you place a sad thought in your head your heart will respond. So controlling the mind becomes the next issue. So the mind having these two places the outer and inner becomes an expanse where issues can be decided. This is thinking. Some thinking is simply mental assent like, please hand me that thing over there, mundane and the mediocre issues of the mind. Yet the inner part of the mind has issues like, I love you and, please don't hurt me.

Here is where we start to break things down further.

The mind also remembers and learns and is multi-dimensional. The mind is though seemingly limited by only the five senses. The supposition is that what we know we have observed through these five senses. So we observe things and learn through these abilities of the body. Thus we through this memory become creatures of habit. What the mind learns and the motions of life become solidified and difficult to change. We become set in our ways and we develop doctrines that we put into practice.

I told you this stuff gets complex. It is hard to conceptualize that God wants us all to learn these matters and be conscious or our spiritual existence. This is why God wrote them in the Bible. This verse should demonstrate how psychological the Bible is trying to be.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Comment: Do we have eyes in our understanding?

We will get to them later.

The Bible defines "the will". Something that I have never heard psychology or theists do very well. The will has three parts. The loins, heart and feet. These are still parts of the persona of the mind. It is how the mind works. The loins are the first part of the will. The loins of the mind are where commitments are made or the commitment center of the will. The heart of the mind is where commitments are believed or the believing center of the will. The feet of the will are where commitments are acted upon or the action center of the will. All three of these are what we call consciousness. They are all needed for the mind to fully function. We are born first physically with the persona of the world.

This is where we start putting some of this stuff together.

The sanctification, the mind, the habits, the will and how it relates to the spirit and the conscience.

The conscience most all reasoning creatures and some animals possess (or it possesses them).

The worldly conscience is not an equal thing because it is created by the external stimuli of the mind in the physical sense.

It is created by conditions of physical birth, trial and error for the most part and it is learned from experience and our frames of reference. For the most part the world teaches us this, the school of hard knocks. This is why the conscience varies from person to person. For example, one person is conscientious over abortion while another is not. Thus, is the spirit giving conflicting directives? This is where most people draw a blank. Even the greatest spiritual thinkers have been stumped by this one.

Here is where the word "nature" comes into the equation.

We are drawn by the nature of our minds. By what we have experienced and the way our minds categorize things and the way our mind is ordered. We see things in black and white and wrong and right, good and evil. We see things as absolutes so that we can detect contrast and subtle shades of gray. Without contrast of ideas we would have no way of reasoning. So the worldly mind compiled by the senses is what decides the absolutes. The mind weighs these things through it's own experience and attributes values to these ideologies. These values we call standards and place them deep in the persona.

But since we all have different standards this would mean that if we were all listening to the spirit the spirit is telling us all different things. Thus our standards are what we use to gauge our worldly conscience.

Since we all have slightly to vastly varying standards this would suggest that the mind has crafted these standards out of an arbitrary and varying array of experiences. These experiences are crafted by the spiritual forces that be. Nearly all human interaction with other humans and the physical world is spiritual. Everything gives something off. Even a city sidewalk gives something off. It reflects the mood and craftsmanship of the person that designed and made it. Everything is innately spiritual to humans. Thus the mind is not only fed upon a physical diet but it is affected by the underlying spiritual nature of things. Thus we are all spiritual and learning is spiritual.

We have the mind to categorize these learnings in it's own way. The mind has a nature to discriminate the truth. There is even an order to chaos and confusion.

This is where the holy spirit becomes important. Since people have varying standards the whole idea of relying solely upon these "standards" is relatively flawed. To each their own. So then how can people find unity when they are so divided? When this person finds their standards in the writings of Aristotle another in Plato and another the Bible, Jung or Niche and so on.

Unity comes in understanding how the spirit works. Knowing the basic rules of the spirit and the way of the spirit. For the spirit can often stand in direct opposition to the mind and it's "conscience".

In fact the spirit is often a liberator of the worldly conscience where the mind is more often the prison of the worldly conscience. Yet the worldly conscience is still a natural part of the mind. This is what the Bible refers to as the natural man, the man of only body, soul and worldly spirit.
It is who you identify yourself with. This can change your conscience. The mind has it's worldly conscience and this can exist completely autonomous from the holy spirit consciousness. So the conscience in general cannot be broadly defined as the holy spirit because the conscience can exist without the presence of the holy spirit. The worldly conscience is dead without the holy spirit(creation). The holy spirit is the essence of unconditional love. The spirit of the world is only capable of human love or love with conditions. The worldly conscience is powered by fear and the holy spirit is powered by faith. Thus they are in complete opposition.

Depending on if a person as a child was sanctified or not can have much to do with how they succeed later in spiritual life.

For the spirit of the world leads into corruption and this corruption causes habits that the mind can place deep within the heart and the will can find difficult to defeat. This defeat is cause by weaknesses in commitments, believing or action. If you are not acting it is because you are not believing if you are not believing it is because you have not made a commitment.

But the holy spirit cannot be born into a person until they by their will accept it. So they can either keep the spirit they were born with which is corrupt or they can receive a newly created spirit as seed. This seed can never be removed though it can be ignored.

But here is where the mind comes in to the picture. The mind still has retained the nature and habits of the old spirit.

Some people never receive the new spirit they just slowly or sometimes quickly slip into decay and their mind with them. Some receive the new spirit but they keep their old mind. Some keep the old spirit but learn traits of the new spirit but inside they still have the old one.

The holy spirit is fluid, it works dynamically with us to help us grow toward our own goals in life. God wants us to have unity within diversity. This unity is the holy spirit, it unifies us with God unconditionally. One need but only but ask God for the holy spirit and believe and it is freely given. The purpose is for the holy spirit to aid the believer in the emancipation from the worldly mind. The holy spirit is not for people who think they are perfect already. The holy spirit is received with meekness, retained with conviction and released with boldness.

Yet the mind habitually obscures this new life more often. The mind applies it's own standards rather than allowing the will of the spirit to guide the mind. The old conscience tries to exert it's supremacy.

The mind is limited but the spirit is unlimited.

The conscience is limited by the standards deeply rooted within the mind. Only the spirit can liberate the mind from the limited conscience of the minds own senses deficit.

Here is where the psychology takes a supernatural turn.

The spirit mimics creation itself.

The spirit is a creation of creation. Thus the moment a person has spirit created within them they "become" that spirit. It is as if God foreknew you. I know that is a hard one to understand. But that is the nature of "creation" and God's mind. It would not be called creation if it was not something new and never existing before.

The spirit represents the creation of a completely new being each time it is created within a new believer. This is why it is "created" in each person and not just put there.

So we at that moment transcend our body, soul and old mind existence and become part of a heavenly citizenship. A high calling. So one could say that what was once the consciousness of the mind becomes the consciousness of the spirit. But the mind still has it's memories, commitments, believing and actions to contend with. It still has it's standards that it has learned from the world and the spirits of the world. Yet the holy spirit is now aware and able to discern the worldly spirits and standing in total contrast to this nature of the mind.

The holy spirit is saying listen to me and the mind is saying listen to me. So it becomes a wrestling between the standards of the mind and the standards of the spirit.

Before the holy spirit there was only the spirit of the world mind and it's conscience. But suddenly there is another spirit. This spirit is our own true person now created in glory. So do we now measure ourselves by the standards created by our minds and actions or do we measure ourselves by the perfect spirit newly born within? Does our conscience exist by the standards set by the mind or the spirit? Do we live by the nature of our feelings or the reasonings and resulting feelings set forth by the standards of the spirit? Do we superimpose our view of life over the spirit or the dismal perspective of the the five senses world around us? Do we limit our understanding by only what we can experience in the five senses or do we supersede the senses and our animalistic fleshly natures for the illusive gifts of divine providence. Do we live by the minds view or the holy spirit's view.

Each view has it's own conscience because each view is a consciousness. We first receive the power then we manifest the power.

There is the consciousness of the mind before the spirit and the consciousness of the mind after the spirit. The consciousness of the mind is not much different the moment after the spirit is created but the mind now has a new internal means with which to learn and operate outside of the five senses.

This operation is an altered consciousness or super consciousness. Both war against each other and it is the new more aware person that can now control the outcome.

So as a child we learn the motions of both consciousnesses, although we may only be driven by a worldly consciousness. Once we receive the holy spiritual consciousness then we have a holy spiritual conscience. You have a second commitment center, a second heart and a second action center and entirely new thinking apparatus only it is still in the same brain.

You have a new person all together inside. This new person inside is the real you. Now you just have to convince your old person within to surrender to it.

The old person who is dead and was ruled by a different code. The new person is fluid, dynamic and living. The new person is free from the conscience of the old person through remission of sins.

Thus they have escaped the bitterness that has grown from sin consciousness and sin itself. The mind records sins and holds them up to taunt as if it was actually the person's own fault that they have committed them. But it was not, it was the perception that the mind created for them. So this perception is not you it is a perception, reflection and image of the world, a conscience that kills.

But the holy spiritual perception is that the true spirit cannot be corrupted and it can never be taken back. Once it is created it is everlasting. The body and soul are only an illusion of who we really are spiritually.

There is the worldly illusion and the spiritual truth. The spiritual truth is that we are created with the righteousness of God. How righteous is God? Very righteous.

So we can walk by the "flesh" (five senses) and live by those standards that our mind has devised or we can live with an image of the mind of Christ. The holy spirit birth made this possible.

The innermost part of your being being the holy spirit. Your heart is the heart of God, your very breath is the breath of the divine in you. The spirit is living and the law is a static and lifeless divisive shell. Just like the mind and it's limited reality. The mind is spiritually lifeless because it is limited by the five senses it cannot know the diversity and infinity of God without the holy spirit, thus it's consciousness and reasons are errant. It takes spirit to know spirit.

The spirit is not only a consciousness but it is an energy source.

It is another mind apart from the old mind. This mind is a person that thinks on it's own that has a will of it's own it has a nature of it's own and it has an action center to mobilize it's thoughts into deeds. Yet this consciousness must still take place in the same head. Thus thought by thought the ideology of the mind has to be changed. This is how Christian character and virtue is achieved by this renewing process of the mind. By internal reality and presence of the spirit and by the energy of the convictions of the will of this holy spirit. This all obedient to to the will of God

This spirit is the mind of Christ and so it has his thoughts. It has his heart, his faith it has his grace and mercy it has his commitment and his name. This spirit is a representative of Christ himself living on earth today.

This spirit has the power and authority of Christ it has the ministry of Christ. It has the love of God and it has all eternity to fulfill the will of God.

It has the prayer of Christ and the prophecy of Christ the healing of Christ it has the word of God and the wisdom of God.

Compare this to the reality the mind has made for you and you will then know the contrast of the reality of the spirit.

The fruit of the spirit is a sound mind and that the mind will become filled to overflowing with all love, joy, peace, meekness, kindness, goodness, faith and patience.

Only the holy spirit born within a believer has the conscience of Christ Jesus.

Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Comment:
Put on the new person "in the mind"... that the eyes of your understanding become enlightened.

Peace with God

(Jesus, Rex ...I said "Easy", not "Essay"!)

RexRed:
"The worldly conscience is not an equal thing because it is created by the external stimuli of the mind in the physical sense. It is created by conditions of physical birth, trial and error for the most part and it is learned from experience and our frames of reference. For the most part the world teaches us this, the school of hard knocks. This is why the conscience varies from person to person."
Everyone has the same conscience but, like you suggest, some have learned to respect it more than others.

"Everything is innately spiritual to humans. Thus the mind is not only fed upon a physical diet but it is affected by the underlying spiritual nature of things. Thus we are all spiritual and learning is spiritual."
"Spiritual", in this sense, is just a more subtle form of what we call "physical".

"We have the mind to categorize these learnings in it's own way. The mind has a nature to discriminate the truth. There is even an order to chaos and confusion."
The mind categorizes information in the same way the water categorizes a wave.
If a person believes that his true identity is his mind, and believes his mind to be separate from the world, then he will see chaos and confusion in the world and in his mind. To know the mind as an essential part of the world, is to transcend the mind altogether ...to learn that the nature of the world is the nature of the mind. Then, there is no chaos and no order.

"The mind has it's worldly conscience and this can exist completely autonomous from the holy spirit consciousness. So the conscience in general cannot be broadly defined as the holy spirit because the conscience can exist without the presence of the holy spirit."
If your worldly conscience is corrupt, how can your mind ever extend an honest invitation to the holy spirit?
The holy spirit, as you describe, is a sort of lesson ...an operating system for the mind to better run the conscience (the 'worldly' conscience, as you say).

"The worldly conscience is dead without the holy spirit(creation). The holy spirit is the essence of unconditional love."
The holy spirit is the lesson of unconditional love.

"The spirit of the world is only capable of human love or love with conditions. The worldly conscience is powered by fear and the holy spirit is powered by faith."
Faith can either be reasoned or blind. Reasoned faith is honest and finds the honest "truth".

So, who is more likely to not have a conscience, people who deny global warming and do what they please, wasting the environment, or people who live their lives so as not to hurt anything else?

1Co 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Comment:
This body of Christ is in the mind.

It is the new "person" in the mind.

Ro 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Comment:
The spirit has the righteousness of God.

Ro 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Comment:
This righteousness of God is the holy spirit.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise,

1Th 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy spirit.

Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his spirit in the inner man;

Comment:
The NEW inner "person" that God has "created", strengthened within the MIND.

2Co 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Comment:
That word "changed" is the Greek transliterated word "metamorphoo"

1. to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
a. Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration

Comment:
I have had this "metamorphoo" explained to me as being like a worm (the inner person) when it is "transformed" into a butterfly.

Ro 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Comment:
The word Christian comes from the two words "christ" and "in"...

Ro 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Comment:
"Christ in" you...

RexRed,

Do you see anything in your last post that you think might conflict with what I think?
I can't find anything.

So, did Unabomber and dedicated environmentalist Ted Kaczynski have a conscience?

He was living in Montana , not driving an SUV and using little or no fossil fuel or products derived from same.

Sounds like he's the model citizen you wish we all were, right?

You may be confusing the "false" consciousness of the old person (in the mind) with the "true" consciousness/conscience of the new person.

Ephesians 6:13-15
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour [equipment/gear] of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins [commitment center of the will] girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness [heart/believing center of the will]; 15 And your feet [action center of the will] shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Comment:
The loins of the mind are to be, girt (clothed) with "truth" (the law of liberty).

Ephesians 6:
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Comment:
The "helmet of salvation" or mindset is the living word, Christ Jesus...
The sword of the inner person in the mind is the word of God, not a physical implement of war.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Co 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.