The Holy Spirit is the Angel Gibreal (PBUH), he's Allah's "right hand" Angel. He was sent down in many instances, he revealed the Quran to Muhammad (PBUH) and he's the one who revealed to Mary (PBUH) that she would have a son. The reason the Holy Spirit is pure is because Angels are pure, they know nothing but to worship, praise and obey Allah. They are made of light, devils/jinn are made of fire and we of earth. That's why we have both urges, and which is why a person who obey Allah is better than an Angel in Allah's "eyes". Trust me on this, the Holy Spirit is Gibrael (PBUH).
(Quran 5:110).
And the reason Jesus (PBUH) was sinless is because-
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."
Thus he was not vunerable like all of us are to Satan's constant whispers.
Do you mind giving me your email or PMing, I would like to talk to you more often.
Raul-7 wrote:The Holy Spirit is the Angel Gibreal (PBUH), he's Allah's "right hand" Angel. He was sent down in many instances, he revealed the Quran to Muhammad (PBUH) and he's the one who revealed to Mary (PBUH) that she would have a son. The reason the Holy Spirit is pure is because Angels are pure, they know nothing but to worship, praise and obey Allah. They are made of light, devils/jinn are made of fire and we of earth. That's why we have both urges, and which is why a person who obey Allah is better than an Angel in Allah's "eyes". Trust me on this, the Holy Spirit is Gibrael (PBUH).
(Quran 5:110).
And the reason Jesus (PBUH) was sinless is because-
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."
Thus he was not vunerable like all of us are to Satan's constant whispers.
Do you mind giving me your email or PMing, I would like to talk to you more often.
Raul,
The Devil is also an "unholy" spirit/jinn. The devil was cast out of heaven but when God created man in his image this was not talking about man's physical body this was talking about God making man in his own "spiritual" image. When God told Adam he would die the day he ate of the apple this was not talking about a physical death this was talking about a "spiritual" death. So this is how the devil made it back into heaven as "a God above our level"... Not because of the original power that he fell from "before Eden", but because of the spiritual power given to him as a result of the original sin .
God said on that very day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day they ate the apple so either God lied or they died spiritually.
They died spiritually... and they in high treason toward God conferred the dominion of the "image" of God to the devil. So this devil ruled over the earth as a God, as Adam was supposed to.
The devil was the most beautiful of the three arc angels, Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer (the devil). Thus this beauty gave him special favor from God, "above" what Gabriel and Michael received from God.
When Jesus descended into hell and fought the devil and triumphed over him he led captivity captive and he assumed the throne of power that the Devil had usurped from God, thus he became the "image" of God.
RexRed wrote:
Raul,
The Devil is also an "unholy" spirit/jinn. The devil was cast out of heaven but when God created man in his image this was not talking about man's physical body this was talking about God making man in his own "spiritual" image. When God told Adam he would die the day he ate of the apple this was not talking about a physical death this was talking about a "spiritual" death. So this is how the devil made it back into heaven as "a God above our level"... Not because of the original power that he fell from "before Eden", but because of the spiritual power given to him as a result of the original sin .
God said on that very day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day they ate the apple so either God lied or they died spiritually.
They died spiritually... and they in high treason toward God conferred the dominion of the "image" of God to the devil. So this devil ruled over the earth as a God, as Adam was supposed to.
The devil was the most beautiful of the three arc angels, Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer (the devil). Thus this beauty gave him special favor from God, "above" what Gabriel and Michael received from God.
When Jesus descended into hell and fought the devil and triumphed over him he led captivity captive and he assumed the throne of power that the Devil had usurped from God, thus he became the "image" of God.
Iblis (Lucifer) was not an Angel, as I said Angel's cannot disobey God. They were made for one single purpose, to obey God's command. Iblis was a jinn, not an Angel - which is why he disobeyed Allah's command when he told him along with the rest of the Angels to prostrate to Adam. They all fell prostrate except for Iblis, he said I am better than Adam, you made him from mud and me from fire. Thus Allah banished him from the Heavens for disobeying His command; Iblis vowed to make the believers stray off the Path of Guidance. In which Allah promised to fill Hell with him (Iblis) and all those who follow him from both mankind and jinn.
Jinn are likes us Humans, except they are made of fire and we cannot see them. But they they too will be raised on Judgement Day like us. That's why Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last Prophet sent down to both the human and jinn.
Since when did Jesus (PBUH) go to Hell? No one has ever entered Hell yet (not even Iblis), but many will in the future. And how could one of God's creations (Devil) seize the Throne of the All-Mighty? That's unheard of.
May Allah guide you onto the Straight Path.
Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:
Raul,
The Devil is also an "unholy" spirit/jinn. The devil was cast out of heaven but when God created man in his image this was not talking about man's physical body this was talking about God making man in his own "spiritual" image. When God told Adam he would die the day he ate of the apple this was not talking about a physical death this was talking about a "spiritual" death. So this is how the devil made it back into heaven as "a God above our level"... Not because of the original power that he fell from "before Eden", but because of the spiritual power given to him as a result of the original sin .
God said on that very day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam and Eve did not die physically the day they ate the apple so either God lied or they died spiritually.
They died spiritually... and they in high treason toward God conferred the dominion of the "image" of God to the devil. So this devil ruled over the earth as a God, as Adam was supposed to.
The devil was the most beautiful of the three arc angels, Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer (the devil). Thus this beauty gave him special favor from God, "above" what Gabriel and Michael received from God.
When Jesus descended into hell and fought the devil and triumphed over him he led captivity captive and he assumed the throne of power that the Devil had usurped from God, thus he became the "image" of God.
Iblis (Lucifer) was not an Angel, as I said Angel's cannot disobey God. They were made for one single purpose, to obey God's command. Iblis was a jinn, not an Angel - which is why he disobeyed Allah's command when he told him along with the rest of the Angels to prostrate to Adam. They all fell prostrate except for Iblis, he said I am better than Adam, you made him from mud and me from fire. Thus Allah banished him from the Heavens for disobeying His command; Iblis vowed to make the believers stray off the Path of Guidance. In which Allah promised to fill Hell with him (Iblis) and all those who follow him from both mankind and jinn.
Jinn are likes us Humans, except they are made of fire and we cannot see them. But they they too will be raised on Judgement Day like us. That's why Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last Prophet sent down to both the human and jinn.
Since when did Jesus (PBUH) go to Hell? No one has ever entered Hell yet (not even Iblis), but many will in the future. And how could one of God's creations (Devil) seize the Throne of the All-Mighty? That's unheard of.
May Allah guide you onto the Straight Path.
These are things that the Bible revealed before the latter books of the Quran was written. Mohammed [PBUH] teaches also not to contradict earlier prophets of God. The Book of Genesis teaches that Lucifer becomes a spirit image of God through the sin of Adam and Eve. It also foretells that the messiah recaptures this image of God. It only stands to reason that the messiah would have to descend into hell to recapture this image if it is in possession of the devil. This is what the Bible says. In order to be "raised" from death one would have to conquer the grave. Clerics assume that the "raised" part of Jesus will be future. That would assume Jesus is dead now then. The messiah is alive. The only way he could be alive now is if he transcended death.
The jinn considered himself above the angels because he was favored above them by God. The jinn even considered himself above God at one point. In the beginning God "created" the heaven (angels) and the earth (humans), the jinn had to consist of either heaven or earth. Since Adam was earth with a bit of heaven the jinn must have been heaven or earth also. But God gave Adam a touch of heaven (spirit) and this is what the jinn stole in Eden from Adam and Eve.
The original sin is right there in the story I don't see how one can miss it.
So it is not that the original sin did not exist but clerics are not interpreting the words of Mohammed [PBUH] and the prophets correctly.
The messiah conquers the power from the jinn that the jinn tricked Adam and Eve out of in Eden. The jinn comes in the form of smoke just as the spirit is depicted as smoke or the wind. The smoke of burnt offerings and incense, the smoke from the oil in a lamp...
RexRed wrote:
These are things that the Bible revealed before the latter books of the Quran was written. Mohammed [PBUH] teaches also not to contradict earlier prophets of God. The Book of Genesis teaches that Lucifer becomes a spirit image of God through the sin of Adam and Eve. It also foretells that the messiah recaptures this image of God. It only stands to reason that the messiah would have to descend into hell to recapture this image if it is in possession of the devil. This is what the Bible says. In order to be "raised" from death one would have to conquer the grave. Clerics assume that the "raised" part of Jesus will be future. That would assume Jesus is dead now then. The messiah is alive. The only way he could be alive now is if he transcended death.
The jinn considered himself above the angels because he was favored above them by God. The jinn even considered himself above God at one point. In the beginning God "created" the heaven (angels) and the earth (humans), the jinn had to consist of either heaven or earth. Since Adam was earth with a bit of heaven the jinn must have been heaven or earth also. But God gave Adam a touch of heaven (spirit) and this is what the jinn stole in Eden from Adam and Eve.
The original sin is right there in the story I don't see how one can miss it.
So it is not that the original sin did not exist but clerics are not interpreting the words of Mohammed [PBUH] and the prophets correctly.
The messiah conquers the power from the jinn that the jinn tricked Adam and Eve out of in Eden. The jinn comes in the form of smoke just as the spirit is depicted as smoke or the wind. The smoke of burnt offerings and incense, the smoke from the oil in a lamp...
Peace be upon you Rex.
We're taught not to differ amongst the Prophets, we do not differentiate between them. However, we are taught to stick the Quran for our source of knowledge. The Quran encompases of from all the three monotheistic religions, it corrects the contradicitions and misconceptions in the Torah and Gospel by the hypocrites who decided to change them. Thus Allah has vowed that His last Revelation would never be changed.
The Words of your Lord are perfect in truthfulness and justice. No one can change His Words. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. (Surat al-An'am: 115)
Honestly, how do you know what Bible to trust when most are full of contradiction and error? I do not mean it in arrogance or malicously, but just logically - from a neutral standpoint.
Here's the answer to original sin:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/original_sin_in_islam.htm
Please read it, they have more knowledge than I do about the matter.
In essence, a child is born innocent untill he reaches the age of puberty. At that time he/she reaches puberty the account with their Creator is now opened. Which is why children who die before they reach puberty automatically go to Paradise.
Quote:Jinn are likes us Humans, except they are made of fire and we cannot see them. But they they too will be raised on Judgement Day like us. That's why Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last Prophet sent down to both the human and jinn.
Since when did Jesus (PBUH) go to Hell? No one has ever entered Hell yet (not even Iblis), but many will in the future. And how could one of God's creations (Devil) seize the Throne of the All-Mighty? That's unheard of.
I must admit to not having followed this thread, but reading this extract I know why. It appears you have quite literally taken leave of your senses. If you seriously believe this guff I question your sanity.
Quote: The Apostles' Creed (as usually recited today)
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell;[/i] the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen
Jesus went to hell but only for a short time. A weekend break in Hell. A bit like many other cheap week end breaks actually.
Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:
These are things that the Bible revealed before the latter books of the Quran was written. Mohammed [PBUH] teaches also not to contradict earlier prophets of God. The Book of Genesis teaches that Lucifer becomes a spirit image of God through the sin of Adam and Eve. It also foretells that the messiah recaptures this image of God. It only stands to reason that the messiah would have to descend into hell to recapture this image if it is in possession of the devil. This is what the Bible says. In order to be "raised" from death one would have to conquer the grave. Clerics assume that the "raised" part of Jesus will be future. That would assume Jesus is dead now then. The messiah is alive. The only way he could be alive now is if he transcended death.
The jinn considered himself above the angels because he was favored above them by God. The jinn even considered himself above God at one point. In the beginning God "created" the heaven (angels) and the earth (humans), the jinn had to consist of either heaven or earth. Since Adam was earth with a bit of heaven the jinn must have been heaven or earth also. But God gave Adam a touch of heaven (spirit) and this is what the jinn stole in Eden from Adam and Eve.
The original sin is right there in the story I don't see how one can miss it.
So it is not that the original sin did not exist but clerics are not interpreting the words of Mohammed [PBUH] and the prophets correctly.
The messiah conquers the power from the jinn that the jinn tricked Adam and Eve out of in Eden. The jinn comes in the form of smoke just as the spirit is depicted as smoke or the wind. The smoke of burnt offerings and incense, the smoke from the oil in a lamp...
Peace be upon you Rex.
We're taught not to differ amongst the Prophets, we do not differentiate between them. However, we are taught to stick the Quran for our source of knowledge. The Quran encompasses of from all the three monotheistic religions, it corrects the contradictions and misconceptions in the Torah and Gospel by the hypocrites who decided to change them. Thus Allah has vowed that His last Revelation would never be changed.
The Words of your Lord are perfect in truthfulness and justice. No one can change His Words. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. (Surat al-An'am: 115)
Honestly, how do you know what Bible to trust when most are full of contradiction and error? I do not mean it in arrogance or malicously, but just logically - from a neutral standpoint.
Here's the answer to original sin:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/original_sin_in_islam.htm
Please read it, they have more knowledge than I do about the matter.
In essence, a child is born innocent untill he reaches the age of puberty. At that time he/she reaches puberty the account with their Creator is now opened. Which is why children who die before they reach puberty automatically go to Paradise.
Raul,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess I believe the Bible because it has the same books as the Quran. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
My understanding of the spirit comes from these books not necessarily the books that are not in common to Islam and Christianity. It is the book of Genesis that teaches body soul and spirit.
I don't see the Quran as changing or different than what the Bible says I see it as exemplifying and expanding upon what the Bible says. I see it as sheading light upon the Bible. I do not see contradictions in the Bible or the Quran I see contradictions in the way people understand the books. I don't see Mohammed as contradicting the Apostles. I see clerics and theists contradicting the Apostles. I think that wherever there is a seeming contradiction there is an opportunity to unravel further truth. Sometimes it seems easier to see things as a contradiction rather than to exhort the extra effort to find the truth.
When we reason that all of creation comes in one or a combination of either of three forms body, soul and spirit. The jinn, devils, satan, gabriel and Jesus all must fall within one or a combination of all three... body soul and spirit. The spiritual reality is often overlooked for misinterpretation and this misinterpretation breaks the holy words and creates contradictions.
When body, soul and spirit is overlooked then the truth is broken.
The body can be born innocent and the soul can be born in sin. I am sure Mohammed understood this, but do modern clerics and theists understand this?
RexRed wrote:
Raul,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess I believe the Bible because it has the same books as the Quran. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
My understanding of the spirit comes from these books not necessarily the books that are not in common to Islam and Christianity. It is the book of Genesis that teaches body soul and spirit.
I don't see the Quran as changing or different than what the Bible says I see it as exemplifying and expanding upon what the Bible says. I see it as sheading light upon the Bible. I do not see contradictions in the Bible or the Quran I see contradictions in the way people understand the books. I don't see Mohammed as contradicting the Apostles. I see clerics and theists contradicting the Apostles. I think that wherever there is a seeming contradiction there is an opportunity to unravel further truth. Sometimes it seems easier to see things as a contradiction rather than to exhort the extra effort to find the truth.
When we reason that all of creation comes in one or a combination of either of three forms body, soul and spirit. The jinn, devils, satan, gabriel and Jesus all must fall within one or a combination of all three... body soul and spirit. The spiritual reality is often overlooked for misinterpretation and this misinterpretation breaks the holy words and creates contradictions.
When body, soul and spirit is overlooked then the truth is broken.
The body can be born innocent and the soul can be born in sin. I am sure Mohammed understood this, but do modern clerics and theists understand this?
Peace be upon you Rex.
They understood this well. Muslims do not base their opinions on their own knowledge as they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment for misguiding people, thus every ruling is based simply of the Quran and Sunnah (words of Prophet). There is a whole sector of scholars who are simply dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh
But please understand the Quran is not the word of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - he was illeterate and the Quran is of beautiful poetic nature. Nor was the Law of the Gospel the word of Jesus, nor was the Torah the word of Moses. However, the only difference is that the Quran remained preserved as this part of Allah's plan.
Thus Allah has even warned us-
Say: "If both men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up." (Surat al-Isra: 88)
Would you be willing to listen to a short verse in Arabic? You will understand what I mean.
Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:
Raul,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess I believe the Bible because it has the same books as the Quran. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
My understanding of the spirit comes from these books not necessarily the books that are not in common to Islam and Christianity. It is the book of Genesis that teaches body soul and spirit.
I don't see the Quran as changing or different than what the Bible says I see it as exemplifying and expanding upon what the Bible says. I see it as shedding light upon the Bible. I do not see contradictions in the Bible or the Quran I see contradictions in the way people understand the books. I don't see Mohammed as contradicting the Apostles. I see clerics and theists contradicting the Apostles. I think that wherever there is a seeming contradiction there is an opportunity to unravel further truth. Sometimes it seems easier to see things as a contradiction rather than to exhort the extra effort to find the truth.
When we reason that all of creation comes in one or a combination of either of three forms body, soul and spirit. The jinn, devils, satan, gabriel and Jesus all must fall within one or a combination of all three... body soul and spirit. The spiritual reality is often overlooked for misinterpretation and this misinterpretation breaks the holy words and creates contradictions.
When body, soul and spirit is overlooked then the truth is broken.
The body can be born innocent and the soul can be born in sin. I am sure Mohammed understood this, but do modern clerics and theists understand this?
Peace be upon you Rex.
They understood this well. Muslims do not base their opinions on their own knowledge as they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment for misguiding people, thus every ruling is based simply of the Quran and Sunnah (words of Prophet). There is a whole sector of scholars who are simply dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh
But please understand the Quran is not the word of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - he was illeterate and the Quran is of beautiful poetic nature. Nor was the Law of the Gospel the word of Jesus, nor was the Torah the word of Moses. However, the only difference is that the Quran remained preserved as this part of Allah's plan.
Thus Allah has even warned us-
Say: "If both men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up." (Surat al-Isra: 88)
Would you be willing to listen to a short verse in Arabic? You will understand what I mean.
Thanks Raul,
Very interesting your verses of the Qur'an...
Men and jinn can only attempt to counterfeit the masterpiece of God's body, soul and holy spirit which is formed, made and created in us.
I would love to hear verses in Arabic I am sure they are very beautiful.
It is the earthly part of us that shall have an earthly inheritance and it is the heavenly in us that shall find a heavenly inheritance.
Both the Bible and the Qur'an speak of a holy spirit and an unholy (jinn) spirit.
One is of the true God [PBUH] and the other spirit is of this world and men. It is the holy spirit of the Qur'an and Bible that is the right spirit. The spirit of love and liberty...
Peace be with you Raul
RexRed wrote:Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:
Raul,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess I believe the Bible because it has the same books as the Quran. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
My understanding of the spirit comes from these books not necessarily the books that are not in common to Islam and Christianity. It is the book of Genesis that teaches body soul and spirit.
I don't see the Quran as changing or different than what the Bible says I see it as exemplifying and expanding upon what the Bible says. I see it as shedding light upon the Bible. I do not see contradictions in the Bible or the Quran I see contradictions in the way people understand the books. I don't see Mohammed as contradicting the Apostles. I see clerics and theists contradicting the Apostles. I think that wherever there is a seeming contradiction there is an opportunity to unravel further truth. Sometimes it seems easier to see things as a contradiction rather than to exhort the extra effort to find the truth.
When we reason that all of creation comes in one or a combination of either of three forms body, soul and spirit. The jinn, devils, satan, gabriel and Jesus all must fall within one or a combination of all three... body soul and spirit. The spiritual reality is often overlooked for misinterpretation and this misinterpretation breaks the holy words and creates contradictions.
When body, soul and spirit is overlooked then the truth is broken.
The body can be born innocent and the soul can be born in sin. I am sure Mohammed understood this, but do modern clerics and theists understand this?
Peace be upon you Rex.
They understood this well. Muslims do not base their opinions on their own knowledge as they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment for misguiding people, thus every ruling is based simply of the Quran and Sunnah (words of Prophet). There is a whole sector of scholars who are simply dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh
But please understand the Quran is not the word of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - he was illeterate and the Quran is of beautiful poetic nature. Nor was the Law of the Gospel the word of Jesus, nor was the Torah the word of Moses. However, the only difference is that the Quran remained preserved as this part of Allah's plan.
Thus Allah has even warned us-
Say: "If both men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up." (Surat al-Isra: 88)
Would you be willing to listen to a short verse in Arabic? You will understand what I mean.
Thanks Raul,
Very interesting your verses of the Qur'an...
Men and jinn can only attempt to counterfeit the masterpiece of God's body, soul and holy spirit which is formed, made and created in us.
I would love to hear verses in Arabic I am sure they are very beautiful.
It is the earthly part of us that shall have an earthly inheritance and it is the heavenly in us that shall find a heavenly inheritance.
Both the Bible and the Qur'an speak of a holy spirit and an unholy (jinn) spirit.
One is of the true God [PBUH] and the other spirit is of this world and men. It is the holy spirit of the Qur'an and Bible that is the right spirit. The spirit of love and liberty...
Peace be with you Raul
Thanks Rex.
Here is the whole of Surah Al-Thariyat (The Winnowing Winds):
http://rapidshare.com/files/8106896/Sh_Saood_Ash-Shuraim_-_Track_07.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/8107228/Sh_Saood_Ash-Shuraim_-_Track_08.mp3
Don't worry, it's less than 5 minutes long all together.
May Allah bless you and make you from the winners in the Hereafter. Amen.
Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:Raul-7 wrote:RexRed wrote:
Raul,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess I believe the Bible because it has the same books as the Quran. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
My understanding of the spirit comes from these books not necessarily the books that are not in common to Islam and Christianity. It is the book of Genesis that teaches body soul and spirit.
I don't see the Quran as changing or different than what the Bible says I see it as exemplifying and expanding upon what the Bible says. I see it as shedding light upon the Bible. I do not see contradictions in the Bible or the Quran I see contradictions in the way people understand the books. I don't see Mohammed as contradicting the Apostles. I see clerics and theists contradicting the Apostles. I think that wherever there is a seeming contradiction there is an opportunity to unravel further truth. Sometimes it seems easier to see things as a contradiction rather than to exhort the extra effort to find the truth.
When we reason that all of creation comes in one or a combination of either of three forms body, soul and spirit. The jinn, devils, satan, gabriel and Jesus all must fall within one or a combination of all three... body soul and spirit. The spiritual reality is often overlooked for misinterpretation and this misinterpretation breaks the holy words and creates contradictions.
When body, soul and spirit is overlooked then the truth is broken.
The body can be born innocent and the soul can be born in sin. I am sure Mohammed understood this, but do modern clerics and theists understand this?
Peace be upon you Rex.
They understood this well. Muslims do not base their opinions on their own knowledge as they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment for misguiding people, thus every ruling is based simply of the Quran and Sunnah (words of Prophet). There is a whole sector of scholars who are simply dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh
But please understand the Quran is not the word of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - he was illeterate and the Quran is of beautiful poetic nature. Nor was the Law of the Gospel the word of Jesus, nor was the Torah the word of Moses. However, the only difference is that the Quran remained preserved as this part of Allah's plan.
Thus Allah has even warned us-
Say: "If both men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up." (Surat al-Isra: 88)
Would you be willing to listen to a short verse in Arabic? You will understand what I mean.
Thanks Raul,
Very interesting your verses of the Qur'an...
Men and jinn can only attempt to counterfeit the masterpiece of God's body, soul and holy spirit which is formed, made and created in us.
I would love to hear verses in Arabic I am sure they are very beautiful.
It is the earthly part of us that shall have an earthly inheritance and it is the heavenly in us that shall find a heavenly inheritance.
Both the Bible and the Qur'an speak of a holy spirit and an unholy (jinn) spirit.
One is of the true God [PBUH] and the other spirit is of this world and men. It is the holy spirit of the Qur'an and Bible that is the right spirit. The spirit of love and liberty...
Peace be with you Raul
Thanks Rex.
Here is the whole of Surah Al-Thariyat (The Winnowing Winds):
http://rapidshare.com/files/8106896/Sh_Saood_Ash-Shuraim_-_Track_07.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/8107228/Sh_Saood_Ash-Shuraim_-_Track_08.mp3
Don't worry, it's less than 5 minutes long all together.
May Allah bless you and make you from the winners in the Hereafter. Amen.
Very beautiful music Raul,
I have listened and enjoyed many times thank-you.
I surely treasure the hereafter just as the here and now is also a treasure from God/Allah. We have this treasure in an earthen vessel.
RexRed wrote:
Very beautiful music Raul,
I have listened and enjoyed many times thank-you.
I surely treasure the hereafter just as the here and now is also a treasure from God/Allah. We have this treasure in an earthen vessel.
You mean beautiful Quran recitation.
True, this life is also a blessing - but don't let it get the best of you by causing you to forget God in your daily life for the Hereafter is better and everlasting.
The life of this world is nothing but a game and a diversion. The abode of the Hereafter-that is truly life if they only knew. (Qur'an, 29:64)
Peace be upon you Rex.
Hi Rex,
I got the tafseer (Quranic literal meaning, not interpretation) of the verse about Jesus's crucifiction.
4:157 And their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; [171] and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him!
Note 171 (Quran Ref: 4:157 )Thus, the Qur'an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur'an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur'anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur'anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it - albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500). (Quran Ref: 4:157 )
May Allah guides us all to His Straight Path.
Raul-7 wrote:Hi Rex,
I got the tafseer (Quranic literal meaning, not interpretation) of the verse about Jesus's crucifiction.
4:157 And their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; [171] and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him!
Note 171 (Quran Ref: 4:157 )Thus, the Qur'an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur'an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur'anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur'anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it - albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500). (Quran Ref: 4:157 )
May Allah guides us all to His Straight Path.
May God's blessing supply your life with spiritual fruit Raul,
Here is a literal translation with some helping words of my own in red...
4:157 And their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary,
[who was] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them
[Because they did not understand his soul and eternal incorruptible spirit which could not be slain and thought as if it had been] so; [171] and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof
[of the spirit], and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him!
[For, Christ Jesus still lives, we are his body.]
Comment:
It only seemed like they crucified him?
What would make the people "think" in their minds that they crucified Jesus Christ? Was it maybe the fact that they saw him nailed to a tree? This would make the people "think" he was dead... But they were ignorant and had no real knowledge of the "spiritual" Christ Jesus whom God raised from the dead.
Hi Rex,
One piece of information provided about Jesus' (pbuh) ascension is that God will purify him of the unbelievers. The Qur'an reveals:
raise you up [wa raafi'uka] to Me and purify [mutahhiruka] you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection
(Qur'an, 3:55)
The root of mutahhiruka is tahara, meaning "being clean." Islamic scholars regard this word as one proof that Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to God. According to them, the interpretation of the verse is: "I am taking you, raising you to Me, and removing you from this environment polluted by unbelievers and sinners."52 Thus, God purified Jesus (pbuh) from the unbelievers, the unbelievers' plot to kill him was foiled and they failed to achieve their goal. (God knows best.)
Moreover, this verse also shows that Jesus (pbuh) was purified by his physical separation from an environment containing unbelievers. (God knows best.) Thus, the assertion that Jesus (pbuh) died and that only his soul was raised to God is proven false. A spirit-only ascent would mean that he was not purified.
In order for Jesus (pbuh) to have been purified in the manner revealed in the verse, he would have to have departed from his surrounding environment in both body and soul. Furthermore, a spirit-only purification cannot apply to a prophet with superior moral values, one who is honored in God's presence and has deep faith, such as Jesus (pbuh). Another verse reveals his superior moral values: "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive" (Qur'an, 19:33). As a devout believer and a messenger of God, Jesus' (pbuh) soul is immaculate. However, his environment was not immaculate, due to the unbelievers' irreligious behavior and corrupt moral values. Indeed, our Lord reveals that they were unclean because of their moral corruption:
O you who believe! The idolaters are unclean, so after this year they should not come near the Sacred Mosque [Masjid al-Haram] ... (Qur'an, 9:28)
Therefore, purifying Jesus (pbuh) means his physical removal from their presence. Thus, God purified and protected him by raising Jesus (pbuh) to Himself. (God knows best.)
To further prove the point, Allah explains this further. The word rafa'a is also used in other contexts. When these verses are examined, however, it can be seen that, in general, what is being referred to is a physical ascension, and that when a spiritual ascension or an ascension in degree is being referred to, the word ascension is used together with the words in rank. (God knows best.)
Physical Ascension
God raised up the heavens without any support - you can see that - and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the Sun and the Moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the signs clear so that, hopefully, you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord. (Qur'an, 13:2)
Spiritual Ascension
This is the argument We gave to Abraham against his people. We raise in rank anyone We will. Your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 6:83)
Hope this helps. As for questioning their interepretations, this is not the main issue as Islamic scholars must base their teachings on evidence and not by mere opinions. The Prophet (PBUH) warned us of using our own opinions to interepret the Quran, even if they were correct (they may enter Hell if doing so). All must be based on logic and conclusions to avoid any confusion.
May Allah guide and bless you. Ameen.
RexRed wrote:Hi Raul,
I thank you for sharing these verses of the Qu'ran and your thoughtful reasonings. My response will be in the color green.
Raul-7 wrote:Hi Rex,
One piece of information provided about Jesus' (pbuh) ascension is that God will purify him of the unbelievers. The Qur'an reveals:
Yes this is true, but let's rephrase that, that God will purify the faith itself. This "faith" (that unbelievers don't get right) has been on earth since Adam and Eve. This faith was perfected as the actual faith within/of Jesus Christ the messiah as he walked this earth.
raise you up [wa raafi'uka] to Me and purify [mutahhiruka] you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection
(Qur'an, 3:55)
The believers who follow Jesus Christ (with the same faith that was within Jesus Christ) who has been (past tense) raised up will be above those who do not have this faith.
The root of mutahhiruka is tahara, meaning "being clean." Islamic scholars regard this word as one proof that Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to God. According to them, the interpretation of the verse is: "I am taking you, raising you to Me, and removing you from this environment polluted by unbelievers and sinners."52 Thus, God purified Jesus (pbuh) from the unbelievers, the unbelievers' plot to kill him was foiled and they failed to achieve their goal. (God knows best.)
The "unbelievers" were actually people who many believed in the wrong God, so to speak. They were worldly and not yolked to the true God/Allah of all creation [PBUH]. They could not link to the true God before the faith had arrived.
Ga 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Comment:
What was before "faith" came? A lesser faith, thus a lesser believer...
Many within religion do not really know what religion is about they just follow along. This plot rightfully was foiled of the ungodly and the true God's purpose was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Yet the issues of body, soul and spirit still need to be understood and resolved in light of the Messiah's "being raised"...
You have to be technically dead from something to need to be raised up. Death is a bridge that all that share a body, soul and spirit must cross my friend. I am tending to believe that the Holy Bible (rightly divided) is the only means to shed light on the actual meaning of the Qu'ran.
Moreover, this verse also shows that Jesus (pbuh) was purified by his physical separation from an environment containing unbelievers. (God knows best.) Thus, the assertion that Jesus (pbuh) died and that only his soul was raised to God is proven false. A spirit-only ascent would mean that he was not purified.
The Christian Bible addresses this but most Christian theists do not know of this part of the Bible it is overlooked and rarely taught let alone understood. The part where the stone is rolled away and Mary Madeline witnesses Christ Jesus reappear in a "new body". The written record of her recollection of the event states that she was not afraid so Jesus must have changed his appearance or not have suffered any physical affliction. Had he still been beaten "beyond recognition as a human" as the Bible says then he would have not been recognizable to Mary. Thus the Bible then goes on to document several other eye witness accounts where Jesus [PBUH] appears after he has revealed himself from the tomb. Within these stories we see a pattern emerge. One pattern is that he does have a "new body". This new body is unlike his other body. The only time his other body seemed to take any particular unique essence was the mount of transfiguration [When he was closest to God's presence]. Other than that Jesus' old body was relatively human. This pattern of thought is quite remarkable in that Jesus' new body is actually like a superman. He can fly without wings, he can morph his appearance right in front of you, so I guess he is a man of every possible physical form he embodies the physical plane itself.
Jesus transforms right in front of some believers and scars miraculously appear in his hands and body for another. One moment Jesus is down in hell battling the adversary then he is calmly walking on the road to Emmaus with some wonderful believers. Jesus lastly appears to the apostles and is raised clear up into the firmament right in front of their eyes. Jesus Christ can be anywhere there is light. So the Qu'ran is right, Jesus was raised, the faith was purified and we are his "new body" as he is with the father.
In order for Jesus (pbuh) to have been purified in the manner revealed in the verse, he would have to have departed from his surrounding environment in both body and soul. Furthermore, a spirit-only purification cannot apply to a prophet with superior moral values, one who is honored in God's presence and has deep faith, such as Jesus (pbuh). Another verse reveals his superior moral values: "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive" (Qur'an, 19:33). As a devout believer and a messenger of God, Jesus' (pbuh) soul is immaculate. However, his environment was not immaculate, due to the unbelievers' irreligious behavior and corrupt moral values. Indeed, our Lord reveals that they were unclean because of their moral corruption:
O you who believe! The idolaters are unclean, so after this year they should not come near the Sacred Mosque [Masjid al-Haram] ... (Qur'an, 9:28)
The sacred mosque of God is within the human body the body is the temple and tabernacle that houses the holy spirit. We must all be raised from this body, by the new faith and we will receive the same new body by faith that Christ received and demonstrated when he rolled away the stone and emerged triumphant over death. We are raised when we receive Christ's measure of the new faith from God.
Therefore, purifying Jesus (pbuh) means his physical removal from their presence. Thus, God purified and protected him by raising Jesus (pbuh) to Himself. (God knows best.)
Burial and burning is purification also... this still indicates death but it also indicates the shedding of the body and our own emergence from our earthly tombs and bounds.
To further prove the point, Allah explains this further. The word rafa'a is also used in other contexts. When these verses are examined, however, it can be seen that, in general, what is being referred to is a physical ascension, and that when a spiritual ascension or an ascension in degree is being referred to, the word ascension is used together with the words in rank. (God knows best.)
Yes, it was a physical ascension, Mary Madeline saw Jesus, the apostles saw him, others saw him then they also saw him ascend "physically" and visually up into the heavens in the wink of an eye. Some also saw the signs of his crucifixion suddenly appear on his body when they failed to believe. This could not have been observed if he did not have a "new" physical body after the death and resurrection of his old body. This was his new body. This "new body" is a part of Christianity that is not understood or taught by Christian theists so it is no wonder it would cause a stumbling block to others outside the faith looking in. His old body was mortal and it was made immortal and spiritually, the corruptible became incorruptible.
Physical Ascension
God raised up the heavens without any support - you can see that - and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the Sun and the Moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the signs clear so that, hopefully, you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord. (Qur'an, 13:2)
Christ Jesus ascended to heaven in the new body not the old one. So the Qu'ran is correct again he only gained a better body and the plan of the worldly adversary and his crude faith failed. The new body of Christ was physical like angels have been depicted, heavenly and had the character, history and identity of the old body but it was dynamic in that it could morph and travel at least at or far beyond the speed of light.
Spiritual Ascension
This is the argument We gave to Abraham against his people. We raise in rank anyone We will. Your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 6:83)
This raise in rank, is the obtaining of the faith of Jesus Christ.
Hope this helps. As for questioning their interepretations, this is not the main issue as Islamic scholars must base their teachings on evidence and not by mere opinions. The Prophet (PBUH) warned us of using our own opinions to interepret the Quran, even if they were correct (they may enter Hell if doing so). All must be based on logic and conclusions to avoid any confusion.
The prophet was very wise [PBUH]...
May Allah guide and bless you. Ameen.
This faith that Jesus Christ [PBUH] demonstrated is a cleansing faith that purifies within and it does not just "cover" our sins (as the old faith/testament did) but it "cleanses/purifies" us from all unrighteousness. This faith is the gift of the holy spirit operating within as the love of God/Allah [PBUH].
Thank-you Raul, I pray in new faith, thanks and gladness for Allah/God to guide me in the liberty of his magnificent way through Christ Jesus. I am certainly blessed and I pray that Allah/God [PBUH] will bless others also in the unity of his grace..
But why would Allah mention that he will raise him up and then purify him of the unbelievers? Thus leading to the fact that he was raised both physically and spirtually. Although most people need to die before being raised up physically, Allah has the power to do whatever he wills. Thus we cannot account Jesus (pbuh) the way we do with normal human beings, he was a different case. We should put faith in God's word that he did infact raise him:
"They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did. God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise" (Quran 4:156-157) .
Thus those who plotted against him thought they did accomplish their plan. They believed they killed (spirtually) and crucified (physically) Jesus (pbuh), as for the 'they thought they did', in Arabic it literaly says 'but it was made to seem that way to them'. Thus Allah decieved them into thinking they did commit that attrocious crime against one of Allah's prophets. This is further defined in the verse where Allah mentions that the unbelievers plotted and Allah plotted too, but Allah is the best of planners.
Which is why Jesus (pbuh) is a Sign of Judgement Day. He will reappear in both the same body and soul, he will bring peace and justice to this World before finally passing away naturally after ruling for about a period of 40 years.
As for the Sacred Mosque, it is not the purification of the spirit - it implies what it says, the Sacred Mosque refers to Makkah (Masjid Al-Haram). Masjid Al-Haram means the Mosque of the Forbidden. It is forbidden to battle there.
Hybrid wrote:I heard god is gay
King Davis was a "man after God's own heart..."
RexRed wrote:Hybrid wrote:I heard god is gay
King Davis was a "man after God's own heart..."
2+2=5 for large values of 2.
