RexRed wrote:Hi Raul,
I thank you for sharing these verses of the Qu'ran and your thoughtful reasonings. My response will be in the color green.
Raul-7 wrote:Hi Rex,
One piece of information provided about Jesus' (pbuh) ascension is that God will purify him of the unbelievers. The Qur'an reveals:
Yes this is true, but let's rephrase that, that God will purify the faith itself. This "faith" (that unbelievers don't get right) has been on earth since Adam and Eve. This faith was perfected as the actual faith within/of Jesus Christ the messiah as he walked this earth.
raise you up [wa raafi'uka] to Me and purify [mutahhiruka] you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection (Qur'an, 3:55)
The believers who follow Jesus Christ (with the same faith that was within Jesus Christ) who has been (past tense) raised up will be above those who do not have this faith.
The root of mutahhiruka is tahara, meaning "being clean." Islamic scholars regard this word as one proof that Jesus (pbuh) was raised alive to God. According to them, the interpretation of the verse is: "I am taking you, raising you to Me, and removing you from this environment polluted by unbelievers and sinners."52 Thus, God purified Jesus (pbuh) from the unbelievers, the unbelievers' plot to kill him was foiled and they failed to achieve their goal. (God knows best.)
The "unbelievers" were actually people who many believed in the wrong God, so to speak. They were worldly and not yolked to the true God/Allah of all creation [PBUH]. They could not link to the true God before the faith had arrived.
Ga 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Comment:
What was before "faith" came? A lesser faith, thus a lesser believer...
Many within religion do not really know what religion is about they just follow along. This plot rightfully was foiled of the ungodly and the true God's purpose was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Yet the issues of body, soul and spirit still need to be understood and resolved in light of the Messiah's "being raised"...
You have to be technically dead from something to need to be raised up. Death is a bridge that all that share a body, soul and spirit must cross my friend. I am tending to believe that the Holy Bible (rightly divided) is the only means to shed light on the actual meaning of the Qu'ran.
Moreover, this verse also shows that Jesus (pbuh) was purified by his physical separation from an environment containing unbelievers. (God knows best.) Thus, the assertion that Jesus (pbuh) died and that only his soul was raised to God is proven false. A spirit-only ascent would mean that he was not purified.
The Christian Bible addresses this but most Christian theists do not know of this part of the Bible it is overlooked and rarely taught let alone understood. The part where the stone is rolled away and Mary Madeline witnesses Christ Jesus reappear in a "new body". The written record of her recollection of the event states that she was not afraid so Jesus must have changed his appearance or not have suffered any physical affliction. Had he still been beaten "beyond recognition as a human" as the Bible says then he would have not been recognizable to Mary. Thus the Bible then goes on to document several other eye witness accounts where Jesus [PBUH] appears after he has revealed himself from the tomb. Within these stories we see a pattern emerge. One pattern is that he does have a "new body". This new body is unlike his other body. The only time his other body seemed to take any particular unique essence was the mount of transfiguration [When he was closest to God's presence]. Other than that Jesus' old body was relatively human. This pattern of thought is quite remarkable in that Jesus' new body is actually like a superman. He can fly without wings, he can morph his appearance right in front of you, so I guess he is a man of every possible physical form he embodies the physical plane itself.
Jesus transforms right in front of some believers and scars miraculously appear in his hands and body for another. One moment Jesus is down in hell battling the adversary then he is calmly walking on the road to Emmaus with some wonderful believers. Jesus lastly appears to the apostles and is raised clear up into the firmament right in front of their eyes. Jesus Christ can be anywhere there is light. So the Qu'ran is right, Jesus was raised, the faith was purified and we are his "new body" as he is with the father.
In order for Jesus (pbuh) to have been purified in the manner revealed in the verse, he would have to have departed from his surrounding environment in both body and soul. Furthermore, a spirit-only purification cannot apply to a prophet with superior moral values, one who is honored in God's presence and has deep faith, such as Jesus (pbuh). Another verse reveals his superior moral values: "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive" (Qur'an, 19:33). As a devout believer and a messenger of God, Jesus' (pbuh) soul is immaculate. However, his environment was not immaculate, due to the unbelievers' irreligious behavior and corrupt moral values. Indeed, our Lord reveals that they were unclean because of their moral corruption:
O you who believe! The idolaters are unclean, so after this year they should not come near the Sacred Mosque [Masjid al-Haram] ... (Qur'an, 9:28)
The sacred mosque of God is within the human body the body is the temple and tabernacle that houses the holy spirit. We must all be raised from this body, by the new faith and we will receive the same new body by faith that Christ received and demonstrated when he rolled away the stone and emerged triumphant over death. We are raised when we receive Christ's measure of the new faith from God.
Therefore, purifying Jesus (pbuh) means his physical removal from their presence. Thus, God purified and protected him by raising Jesus (pbuh) to Himself. (God knows best.)
Burial and burning is purification also... this still indicates death but it also indicates the shedding of the body and our own emergence from our earthly tombs and bounds.
To further prove the point, Allah explains this further. The word rafa'a is also used in other contexts. When these verses are examined, however, it can be seen that, in general, what is being referred to is a physical ascension, and that when a spiritual ascension or an ascension in degree is being referred to, the word ascension is used together with the words in rank. (God knows best.)
Yes, it was a physical ascension, Mary Madeline saw Jesus, the apostles saw him, others saw him then they also saw him ascend "physically" and visually up into the heavens in the wink of an eye. Some also saw the signs of his crucifixion suddenly appear on his body when they failed to believe. This could not have been observed if he did not have a "new" physical body after the death and resurrection of his old body. This was his new body. This "new body" is a part of Christianity that is not understood or taught by Christian theists so it is no wonder it would cause a stumbling block to others outside the faith looking in. His old body was mortal and it was made immortal and spiritually, the corruptible became incorruptible.
Physical Ascension
God raised up the heavens without any support - you can see that - and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the Sun and the Moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the signs clear so that, hopefully, you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord. (Qur'an, 13:2)
Christ Jesus ascended to heaven in the new body not the old one. So the Qu'ran is correct again he only gained a better body and the plan of the worldly adversary and his crude faith failed. The new body of Christ was physical like angels have been depicted, heavenly and had the character, history and identity of the old body but it was dynamic in that it could morph and travel at least at or far beyond the speed of light.
Spiritual Ascension
This is the argument We gave to Abraham against his people. We raise in rank anyone We will. Your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 6:83)
This raise in rank, is the obtaining of the faith of Jesus Christ.
Hope this helps. As for questioning their interepretations, this is not the main issue as Islamic scholars must base their teachings on evidence and not by mere opinions. The Prophet (PBUH) warned us of using our own opinions to interepret the Quran, even if they were correct (they may enter Hell if doing so). All must be based on logic and conclusions to avoid any confusion.
The prophet was very wise [PBUH]...
May Allah guide and bless you. Ameen.
This faith that Jesus Christ [PBUH] demonstrated is a cleansing faith that purifies within and it does not just "cover" our sins (as the old faith/testament did) but it "cleanses/purifies" us from all unrighteousness. This faith is the gift of the holy spirit operating within as the love of God/Allah [PBUH].
Thank-you Raul, I pray in new faith, thanks and gladness for Allah/God to guide me in the liberty of his magnificent way through Christ Jesus. I am certainly blessed and I pray that Allah/God [PBUH] will bless others also in the unity of his grace..
But why would Allah mention that he will raise him up and then purify him of the unbelievers? Thus leading to the fact that he was raised both physically and spirtually. Although most people need to die before being raised up physically, Allah has the power to do whatever he wills. Thus we cannot account Jesus (pbuh) the way we do with normal human beings, he was a different case. We should put faith in God's word that he did infact raise him:
"They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did. God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise" (Quran 4:156-157) .
Thus those who plotted against him thought they did accomplish their plan. They believed they killed (spirtually) and crucified (physically) Jesus (pbuh), as for the 'they thought they did', in Arabic it literaly says 'but it was made to seem that way to them'. Thus Allah decieved them into thinking they did commit that attrocious crime against one of Allah's prophets. This is further defined in the verse where Allah mentions that the unbelievers plotted and Allah plotted too, but Allah is the best of planners.
Which is why Jesus (pbuh) is a Sign of Judgement Day. He will reappear in both the same body and soul, he will bring peace and justice to this World before finally passing away naturally after ruling for about a period of 40 years.
As for the Sacred Mosque, it is not the purification of the spirit - it implies what it says, the Sacred Mosque refers to Makkah (Masjid Al-Haram). Masjid Al-Haram means the Mosque of the Forbidden. It is forbidden to battle there.
Raul,
You and I are again I believe in agreement.
Raul you are saying the Jews did not kill Jesus' body but that later he succumbed to death in old age "like us all" so ultimately the devil took his body with that logic. So there is no change in the life and death of the Messiah?
That is not the purpose of the Messiah, the Messiah is to free us from the powers of death. This is why God/Allah raised him from the dead. Because the world had no power over Jesus' life. They could kill his body but his LIFE and spirit they could not touch. "It appeared like they did" because he died right in front of them but they did not because he was raised in his spiritual body that is greater than the physical body of this world.
Do we desire more the body of this world or the body of the spirit? Remember Raul, angels are spirits but they come in the form of a human when they manifest themselves in this world. The physical body is only a faint counterfeit for the true spiritual body within.
And thank you Raul for clarifying that about the Sacred Mosque. I think that wars should not be fought on any grounds but that is me. All land and real estate belongs to God [PBUH].
RexRed wrote:
Raul,
You and I are again I believe in agreement.
Raul you are saying the Jews did not kill Jesus' body but that later he succumbed to death in old age "like us all" so ultimately the devil took his body with that logic. So there is no change in the life and death of the Messiah?
That is not the purpose of the Messiah, the Messiah is to free us from the powers of death. This is why God/Allah raised him from the dead. Because the world had no power over Jesus' life. They could kill his body but his LIFE and spirit they could not touch. "It appeared like they did" because he died right in front of them but they did not because he was raised in his spiritual body that is greater than the physical body of this world.
Do we desire more the body of this world or the body of the spirit? Remember Raul, angels are spirits but they come in the form of a human when they manifest themselves in this world. The physical body is only a faint counterfeit for the true spiritual body within.
And thank you Raul for clarifying that about the Sacred Mosque. I think that wars should not be fought on any grounds but that is me. All land and real estate belongs to God [PBUH].
No, they did not kill him physically nor spirtually. No-one can be killed spiritually as that's the only part of you that remains alive in your grave while you await Judgement Day. You, I and everyone else on this Earth will either go to Heaven or Hell both in our spirtual sense and physical sense. Which is how the people in Hell will feel the torment and pain of the Fire; their physical skin and flesh will burn.
Jesus (PBUH) did not die, not even physically. God (not the Angel of Death) raised him into Heaven, where he currently awaits until he will return sometime in the future. In his second-coming, he will then die a humanly, natural death.
Narrated Malik bin Sasaa:
That the Prophet talked to them about the night of his Ascension to the Heavens. He said, "(Then Gabriel took me) and ascended up till he reached the second heaven where he asked for the gate to be opened, but it was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'I am Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' He replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' He said, 'Yes.' When we reached over the second heaven, I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and Jesus who were cousins. Gabriel said, 'These are John (Yahya) and Jesus, so greet them.' I greeted them and they returned the greeting saying, 'Welcome, O Pious Brother and Pious Prophet!' "
Thus from his account Muhammad (PBUH) met Jesus (PBUH) in Heaven.
As for the interpretation of the verse, I have relied on a well-respected scholar (Ibn Kathir) who is well-respected for his Quranic interpretation. We are not allowed to interpret the verses with our own opinion, thus we rely on scholars.
The Jews Plot to Kill `Isa
Allah states that the Children of Israel tried to kill `Isa by conspiring to defame him and crucify him. They complained about him to the king who was a disbeliever. They claimed that `Isa was a man who misguided people, discouraged them from obeying the king, caused division, and separated between man and his own son. They also said other lies about `Isa, which they will carry on their necks, including accusing him of being an illegitimate son. The king became furious and sent his men to capture `Isa to torture and crucify him. When they surrounded `Isa's home and he thought that they would surely capture him, Allah saved him from them, raising him up from the house to heaven. Allah put the image of `Isa on a man who was in the house; when the unjust people went in the house while it was still dark, they thought that he was `Isa. They captured that man, humiliated and crucified him. They also placed thorns on his head. However, Allah deceived these people. He saved and raised His Prophet from them, leaving them in disarray in the darkness of their transgression, thinking that they had successfully achieved their goal. Allah made their hearts hard, and defiant of the truth, disgracing them in such disgrace that it will remain with them until the Day of Resurrection. This is why Allah said,
(And they plotted, and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of those who plot.)
And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify [save] you from those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.'' (56. "As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.'') (57. And as for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, Allah will pay them their reward in full. And Allah does not like the wrongdoers.) (58. This is what We recite to you of the verses and the Wise Reminder.)
Hope that clarifies it.
Blessings and Peace to GOD
Raul,
This that I am about to write may seem different than what you have been taught but it is worth consideration...
There is only one heaven and one earth and one kingdom of God which encompasses all that is.
Where the Qu'ran says Mohamed met Jesus in the second heaven I believe he most assuredly did. I believe this because I have been to that very same heaven in the spirit and I have seen that Mohamed is there too.
But one thing that seems to be misunderstood is that this heaven is not in layers like two, five and seven heavens all stacked one on top of another but it is heavens ahead and back in time. Heaven has only one king at a time and nothing unclean will ever again enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus spirit will never again endure an earthly death for it has already been "raised" alive to heaven thus his body is already with God. Nothing un-pure could enter heaven and stand in the sight of God. Jesus is the king of the kingdom of heaven and God is the king of the kingdom of God. In the kingdom of God, God created the kingdom of heaven and the earth in the beginning. The kingdom of heaven is and will forever be in submission to the kingdom of God. So the judgment of Christ is ALWAYS in alignment with the supreme judgment of God. The kingdom of God is where God lives and the kingdoms of heaven is where we live all is within the kingdom of God. The future earth will be different just as the future heaven will see changes as the fullness of time is known by God alone.
The heaven Mohamed speaks of is the heaven that has come but it must still be fulfilled. We go there in the visions through our minds because we are already citizens of that place. Mohamed spoke of the future not his present.
The same heavens that John of the Bible speaks of. Also, John's heavens are not on top of each other like the theists and clerics have wrongly interpreted, but these heavens are, a heaven back with Adam and Eve, an old testament heaven and a new testament heaven today. (Only three heavens that I know of mentioned in the Bible)
These three heavens in the first century were understood to be three in a row (across) and the third one has arrived but it must still be fulfilled.
The fact that it has arrived is why we can go to it in visions and why we are already given a seat there. We are still tied to this earth by our heels yet we see the new heaven through a veil.
But the contemporary theists and clerics have erroneously stacked these heavens upon each other rather than seeing they are heavens aligned in a row in time. Mohamed did not travel "up" but he traveled "across" into the future this is the prophecy he saw because while he stood on earth he was already in this place as we are also.
We are already in heaven and we only need to use our mind to project the image of where we are. The gnostics took the third and second heavens and laid them on top of each other and and used them in a pantheistic way. It has stuck ever since and clerics and theists now impose this Gnostic inspired dogma of the heavens on the Bible and Qu'ran but it is inaccurate.
This next verse is speaking past tense "hath raised"...
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Comment; We are also raised and seated in heavenly places with Christ the messiah (so is Mohamed)...
Also, If the Qu'ran mentions a crown of thorns on Jesus head it is only a stones throw to a few nails. So did they put the thorns on his head then the Jews decided to let him go after he bled a little? Raul the logic doesn't follow through.
The miracle is not in how Jesus escaped death by cunning, slight of hand and imperial wisdom but how God "raised" him from the grave with pure raw creative powers. I am not certain that is the intention of these words in the Qu'ran you have not completely convinced me that what you are saying these words mean is what they mean.
I believe that the real wisdom and miracle was shown in how the world thought they could just kill the Messiah's body but they did not know he was not confined to the flesh. This is the wisdom of God, not a twin but the body of the second Adam a real miracle not a man letting another take the fall for him and not taking the responsibility for his own actions he had created by his own God. Did Jesus stand in delight while another man was brutalized in his place? Then I would what to know who this other man was and I would worship him as the messiah instead. No, I believe Jesus drank the worlds cup of poison in full measure and faced his own undoing because he believed only in the will and promise of the one true God.
None on this earth are free of the guilt of the sin of the Messiah's fate. As long as there are bullies in this world hell bent on forcing others into legalistic submission, the sins against Jesus will be there to judge their spirit. We all need to understand the nature of our own flesh and the evil that can possess the minds of even God's very own elect.
We all are guilty of the sins of our ancient forefathers too...
I certainly do not disagree with the words of the Qu'ran, I just do not exactly always see them the same way you do Raul. In time maybe we will agree somehow, I am sure if we keep our minds open (I certainly will keep mine open) to the truth which is not always tradition, the light of these Holy words will most certainly prevail.
Peace with God.
In the name of the Most-Gracious and Most-Merciful.
The narration I posted about Muhammad (PBUH) greeting Jesus (PBUH) in Paradise is not in the Quran, rather it's from the quotes of the Prophet. It's what the Prophet left behind for us, it's all the sayings and actions of the Prophet. For example, how to preform daily prayers or abulution.
But you have to trust me when I tell you this is not mearly a dream the Prophet had, this was a true ascension in both body and soul. Similary, to how Jesus was raised in both body and soul. Thus it was not mearly a dream or hallucination, this was just a miracle bestowed on him similarly to how all the Prophet's of God had their own special miracles.
As for the levels of Paradise, the Prophet described how they are layered.
The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH): "The people of Paradise will look at the people dwelling in the chambers above them in the same way that people look at a brilliant star shining far away on the horizon, in the East or West, because of their superiority [in reward] over them." The people asked, "O Messenger of Allâh, are these the dwellings of the Prophets which no one else can attain?" He replied, "No by the One in Whose Hand is my soul, they are for the men who believed in Allâh, and also in His Messengers."
Thus, they are layered one above the other, similarly to how we look up at the stars. That's how the people in the lower level of Heaven will look at the dwellings of the people in the level higher.
To further prove this, here's another saying of the Prophet: Paradise has one hundred levels which Allah has reserved for the mujahidin who fight in His Cause and the distance between each of the two grades is like the distance between the heavens and the earth. So when you ask Allah for something, ask for al-Firdaws which is the best and highest part of Paradise. Above it is the throne of the Most Merciful, and from it originate the rivers of Paradise".
Again, it mentions the distance between the two highest levels of Paradise are like the distance between this Earth and the Heaven above us. Not to mention, those in the higher levels will be closer to God.
I have a question to ask you, do you not believe in Jesus's second-coming?
He [Jesus] is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (Quran 43:61)
Then in the Chapter of Maryam (Mary) also mentions Jesus' death in the following verse:
[Jesus said,] "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive." (Surah Maryam, 19:33)
When this verse is considered in conjunction with Surah Al `Imran 55, an important reality emerges: While Surah Al `Imran states that Jesus was raised up to God's presence and does not mention that he died or was killed, Surah Maryam speaks of the day on which he will die. This second death can only be possible after he returns and lives on Earth for a period of time.
Thus he [Jesus PBUH] will come back in both spirit and body, he's going to be a just ruler; bring prosperity and peace to this Earth. Then he will finally die naturally as all the Prophets did. Thus he is the only Prophet who is still alive till this day, however he is currently in Heaven along with the rest of the Prophets. Until God finally decides it's time for his second-coming.
May God keep you on this Earth long enough to meet him and may God bless you with the Paradise of Al-Firdaws [Firr-Dow-SS] to enjoy the company of all the Prophets and ultimately be nearer to God. Amen.
Thus, they are layered one above the other, similarly to how we look up at the stars. That's how the people in the lower level of Heaven will look at the dwellings of the people in the level higher.
more so, was´t his meaning that if you wear a blue hat, a turtle grows antennas?
