Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

RexRed wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:
However, I have to say that Jesus was not killed (soul) nor was he crucified (physical). Thus leaving the fact that Allah (God) infact raised both his soul and body to purify him of all the hypocriptes trying to kill him.

In the ayah you posted earlier: ""They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." (Quran 4:156)

"They killed him not" - this is the spiritual aspect. If they did not kill the prophet, then it is safe to assert that his soul was not collected by Azrael (the Angel of Death) (PBUH).

"Nor crucifiy him" - this is the physical aspect. This means exactly as it is read, they did not crucify his body either.

For example, in this verse. Jesus directly says: "So peace is on me theday I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:33)

Implying he has yet to die both physically and spiritually.

Then in another verse, Allah himself speaks on behalf of Yahya (John), who had died. "So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:15)

So the messiah will die at some point you are saying? When? How do you know this did not happen already? Who is going to kill him? Jesus is not here physically and Mohammed did not speak of meeting him did he? An immortal is not crucified... Yet he does not live in the flesh but in the spirit.

To crucify someone is to imply that they have been confined to the grave (spiritually). So the logic is that Jesus was not confined to the grave so he was not really crucified then. But did he suffer death at the hands of the world. If not then where is he now I surely want to meet him. But was he killed in his flesh? If Jesus was not crucified in the flesh then he would have gone on to spread the gospel even further. Surely clerics have not considered this...

So the only thing that can be surmised is the Quran means that his spirit was not confined by the grave and that Jesus [PBUH] was raised to a new body.

The book of Genesis says the devil shall bruise the messiah's heel. Well that is the flesh, the heal of any human is the flesh. The flesh is where we are vulnerable but the soul and spirit are the real person. Though the world could take Jesus' flesh they could not crucify his spirit.

Those who live for the flesh will die in the flesh. Those who die for the flesh will live in the spirit.

Again technically the Quran is correct, Jesus was not crucified like any other person because the grave could not hold him down... but that does not mean that the devil did not bruise the messiah's heel (flesh). If the world did not bruise Jesus' heel then he would not be the true messiah.

He [Jesus] is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (Qur'an, 43:61)

He is going to die somewhere in the future, Jesus (PBUH) is one of the major signs of the nearing of Judgment Day. He's going to come back on Fajr (dawn) prayer in a Mosque in Damascus to help the believers slay the Dajjal (anti-Christ) and they believe he will live for 40 years before finally dieing, he will be burried next to the Prophet (PBUH) in Medina.

He is still alive in both flesh and spirit, God has already raised him up.

Qur'an 3:55 informs believers that God will "take back" Jesus (pbuh), protect him from the unbelievers, and raise him to His presence. Many great Islamic scholars and commentators have interpreted this verse to mean that Jesus (pbuh) did not die. As the verse states:

[God said:] "Jesus, I will take you back [mutawaffeeka] and raise you up [wa raafi`uka] to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection..." (Qur'an, 3:55)

If you want to know all the details of his second-coming, you can flip through this article. It will tell you everything you need to know.
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/gladtidings/gladtidings05.php

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plainoldme wrote:

Does anyone consider the tossing about of Bible quotes an argument? A discussion?

Not all discussions are arguments but all arguments are discussions.

When a discussion becomes an argument it is because there is a vital piece of information that is missing to either or both parties involved.

There are disagreements and there are misunderstandings.

A disagreement is usually caused by a misunderstanding where one person knows something that the other person has not learned to grasp yet.

One must know what each other thinks in order to find where both opinions agree within reason.

One person prefers red drapes hanging in the window and another person likes blue ones hanging in the window.

That is a matter of personal taste, and taste should be taken as that. But truth as to say, only red drapes look good in the window and blue do not is simply being prejudiced to the color blue or that blue simply doesn't match the decor.

That is either smart decorating or liking something to the exclusion of all other considerations, this last option is being closed minded and incapable of reasoning. Yet the objective decision of what matches the decor can be subjected to a person's particular taste and ability to perceive color.

Only when reasonable dialogues are exchanged then the willingness to compromise on personal taste occurs. Some people are simply color blind and will never see the color blue even if it were hanging in the window. But all colors are surely of the same visible spectrum of light.

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You missed the point. Why rely on the Bible? Quoting it makes you sound like you can not think for yourself.

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plainoldme wrote:

You missed the point. Why rely on the Bible? Quoting it makes you sound like you can not think for yourself.

I think Rex was implying that message for my 'color blinded' point of view? :wink: But I must ask, why do you doubt that our God could raise Jesus (PBUH) in both his flesh and soul?

Even Jesus (PBUH) confirms that he was not killed.

[Jesus said,] "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive." (Qur'an, 19:33)

Why quote, it's like a citation. It only proves the point you're trying to prove.

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Raul-7 wrote:

plainoldme wrote:
You missed the point. Why rely on the Bible? Quoting it makes you sound like you can not think for yourself.

I think Rex was implying that message for my 'color blinded' point of view? :wink: But I must ask, why do you doubt that our God could raise Jesus (PBUH) in both his flesh and soul?

Even Jesus (PBUH) confirms that he was not killed.

[Jesus said,] "Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised up again alive." (Qur'an, 19:33)

Why quote, it's like a citation. It only proves the point you're trying to prove.

Raul, I do not doubt God of anything, I totally surrender to God's will. But what exactly is God's will? God can do anything but did he have to do everything.

The Quran stated that Jesus says he will die. Who will kill him? Ultimately it is the devil who kills people, and it is God who redeems their spirits.

For when the body dies it goes back to the earth, when the soul dies it goes back to the air and when spirit transcends death it goes back to the creator. It is this spirit that cannot be crucified.

Jesus lived in the gospels, he died in the gospels and he rose again from the grave in the gospels and epistles, I don't see a contradiction between them and the Quran.

I seem them both harmonizing in the subject. I see the contradiction as clerics [PBUT] not understanding the Quran and the way the Quran is always cleverly referring to the spirit, not the flesh. The Quran meaning that piercing the flesh in Jesus could not pierce his spirit.

The flesh took the place of the spirit.

No persons of the old testament lives now in heaven. For all others that were raised died again only to succumb to the grave. They await judgment day. The reason why Jesus could not be held in the grave was because of his holy blood. This life of the blood part was immune to attack also. It was his flesh that they attacked. That is the only way he could "die"... even so he still returned with a new body and showed himself alive again.

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Actually, it is not the devil who kills people. The Angel of Death, Malik (PBUH), takes people's lives by the command of God. The devils fear Allah, but they do not obey him and they can't kill people, only cause them to go astray. That's their sole purpose.

As for Jesus, no one will kill him, he will die naturally. He will live for around 40 years; he will return and raise Islam from it's ranks and he will become a just ruler for all. He will then slay the Dajjal near Jerusalem.

The physical body they killed and crucified was actually one of his 12 apostales, I just heard the hadith on it just a couple of minutes ago. It is in Arabic and I did by best to translate it-

The Hadith narrates, from Ibn-Abbas. To the extent that: "When Allah wanted to raise Jesus (PBUH) up onto Him, Jesus came out to his 12 disciples (followers) at his home after he had just finished washing up, and asked them who from you is willing to sacrifice himself for me? Allah will change his apperance to look like me and he will join me in Heaven, who among you? The youngest amongst them said 'I' and then Jesus said 'You're too young, sit down' and then re-asked the same question to the rest of them. Everyone else was too hesistant, except for the youngest. He again said 'I' and Jesus agreed; then before their eyes, Allah changed his appearance to make him look like Jesus. Meanwhile, again before their eyes they saw Jesus being lifted up through the sky-light in his house up to heavens. Finally, the Jews came to his house and asked for them to bring Jesus out, they took the look-alike and proceeded to kill and then crucify him."

Thus why in the verse of the Quran it said, ""They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." Jesus is still alive in both flesh and spirit, and he will return that way.

When you die, your spirit and body remain in the grave untill Judgment Day. As soon as you die, you will be shown your destiny of whether you are going to Hell or Heaven. Your Hereafter starts in the grave, if you're a pious believer you will find yourself at ease and peace awaiting your second coming. While the nonbelievers will find himself constricted within his grave and miserable, only to await his further punishment. Only after Judgement Day will you rise to the All-Mighty.

BTW, have you even looked at the link I posted? :wink: Really, it will tell you all about Jesus's second coming and even how near it is to taking place. It even rely's on the Bible to compare how the Quran and Bible agree on this issue.

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Raul-7 wrote:

Actually, it is not the devil who kills people. The Angel of Death, Malik (PBUH), takes people's lives by the command of God. The devils fear Allah, but they do not obey him and they can't kill people, only cause them to go astray. That's their sole purpose.

As for Jesus, no one will kill him, he will die naturally. He will live for around 40 years; he will return and raise Islam from it's ranks and he will become a just ruler for all. He will then slay the Dajjal near Jerusalem.

The physical body they killed and crucified was actually one of his 12 apostales, I just heard the hadith on it just a couple of minutes ago. It is in Arabic and I did by best to translate it-

The Hadith narrates, from Ibn-Abbas. To the extent that: "When Allah wanted to raise Jesus (PBUH) up onto Him, Jesus came out to his 12 disciples (followers) at his home after he had just finished washing up, and asked them who from you is willing to sacrifice himself for me? Allah will change his apperance to look like me and he will join me in Heaven, who among you? The youngest amongst them said 'I' and then Jesus said 'You're too young, sit down' and then re-asked the same question to the rest of them. Everyone else was too hesistant, except for the youngest. He again said 'I' and Jesus agreed; then before their eyes, Allah changed his appearance to make him look like Jesus. Meanwhile, again before their eyes they saw Jesus being lifted up through the sky-light in his house up to heavens. Finally, the Jews came to his house and asked for them to bring Jesus out, they took the look-alike and proceeded to kill and then crucify him."

Thus why in the verse of the Quran it said, ""They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." Jesus is still alive in both flesh and spirit, and he will return that way.

When you die, your spirit and body remain in the grave untill Judgment Day. As soon as you die, you will be shown your destiny of whether you are going to Hell or Heaven. Your Hereafter starts in the grave, if you're a pious believer you will find yourself at ease and peace awaiting your second coming. While the nonbelievers will find himself constricted within his grave and miserable, only to await his further punishment. Only after Judgement Day will you rise to the All-Mighty.

BTW, have you even looked at the link I posted? :wink: Really, it will tell you all about Jesus's second coming and even how near it is to taking place. It even rely's on the Bible to compare how the Quran and Bible agree on this issue.

Raul,

We must see the distinctions between body, soul and spirit and not just see them as static things.

Each part is an image.

The body is an image of the earth, the soul is an image of the air and the spirit is an image of God.

But each of these command the authority of that which the image reflects.

These images, body soul and spirit, are not only images but they are persons.

There is the person of the flesh, there is a person of the soul and there is a person of the spirit.

Each of these persons have their own objective and it is a wrestling in the mind over which one will gain supremacy..

The person of the flesh is the human that lives by survival, the person of the soul lives by science, the person of the spirit lives eternally through faith with God.

Each of the three persons within are independent beings of each other. Each of these persons are apostles of God, three forms that make up one total image. They each speak of their own image. So it was the apostle of the flesh and soul rather than the apostles of the spirit that died.

This is where ancient misunderstandings are vague and often errant interpretations arise.

It was the person of the flesh of Jesus that was wounded and died. th prophecies of the messiah was that he was to be bruised for our iniquities (dies for our sins).

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Comment:
Yet Jesus' death was unlike others. He did not suffer the grave, when he was down in the grave he was raised from the dead (just as the Quran says.) Jesus had a war with the devil and his armies and he freed the spiritual realms to establish the law of liberty.

[Jesus said,] "Peace be upon me the day I was born (body), the day I die (soul), and the day I am raised up again alive (spirit)." (Qur'an, 19:33)

Comment: Of course Jesus was talking future, but his future(in the flesh)... is our past. The believers represent his flesh upon the earth today. The spirit cannot be understood until it is considered intensely in every way of life.

The spirit is an inner person as the flesh is an outer person. The apostles were not bold spiritually because the spirit of Christ had not come within them yet. This change in courage of the apostles did not come until after the death and resurrection of Jesus. I submit that Jesus is the only person who has defeated the grave (This is the meaning of the word "raised"...)

And the only reason why we have defeated the grave is because of the spirit of Christ within us. For it is the flesh that dies so the spirit can live just as the butterfly loses it' fleshly shell and is raised up into the heavens.

Raul, I know you have a genuine desire to learn, maybe if you were to look a bit less into how things on the surface disagree rather than to try and glean exactly what was intended by Mohammed and the truth that underlies the surface.

Mohammed [PBUH] certainly would not have contradicted earlier prophets so his meaning must be misunderstood by today's clerics. Clerics are too quick to assume that Mohammed is saying the apostles were wrong... we mustn't forget the apostles were not Jews they were highly regarded Christians and they were eye witnesses of the crucifixion.

I say that Mohammed's meaning does not contradict, but it is a brilliant place where people have to stop and think. When they stop and think this is when they learn about body, soul and spirit and the three persons within, and the spiritual wit of Mohammed.

Peace with God.

Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

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It seems we're at odds. You believe your side of the story and I believe my side of the story.

You believe he was resseructed and that they killed the lifeless body of Jesus (PBUH). But I already showed you the verses that deny that? Don't you believe in his second-coming?

How can you trust the versions of the Bible that weren't sent down to Jesus (PBUH) himself? I mean Jesus (PBUH) was sent down with the Law of the Gospel, however the hypocrites ended up changing them to their liking which is why there are a lot of misconceptions and contradictions. Similarly to how Jesus told his tribe to not take him as a God besides Allah, however this was changed to making him the Son.

Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (Quran 2:79)

Further,

Lo! those who hide aught of the Scripture which Allah hath revealed and purchase a small gain therewith, they eat into their bellies nothing else than fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom. (Quran 2:174)

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To whom it may concern:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/12/1/105021.shtml?s=al&promo_code=2A03-1

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Raul-7 wrote:

It seems we're at odds. You believe your side of the story and I believe my side of the story.

You believe he was resseructed and that they killed the lifeless body of Jesus (PBUH). But I already showed you the verses that deny that? Don't you believe in his second-coming?

How can you trust the versions of the Bible that weren't sent down to Jesus (PBUH) himself? I mean Jesus (PBUH) was sent down with the Law of the Gospel, however the hypocrites ended up changing them to their liking which is why there are a lot of misconceptions and contradictions. Similarly to how Jesus told his tribe to not take him as a God besides Allah, however this was changed to making him the Son.

Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (Quran 2:79)

Further,

Lo! those who hide aught of the Scripture which Allah hath revealed and purchase a small gain therewith, they eat into their bellies nothing else than fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom. (Quran 2:174)

I am not saying I don't believe your side of the story.
I just have reasoned the messiah as being the saviour of mankind. That is actually the meaning of messiah, to right the spiritual wrongs of Adam. The Quran is a book of the spirit so it should reflect that truth.

The clerics interpretation of the Quran has Jesus escaping death by making someone else suffer death for him. This turns the story into one of zero profit for the believer and makes Jesus look like a coward. Thus the life (and afterlife) of Jesus is made void by such an interpretation of the holy Quran.

I do not for one moment think that was Mohammed's purpose.

For the words of a prophet must bring "spiritual" profit to the world.

Spiritual salvation is profit, liberty over law is profit, but confusing what is clear in the Bible only steals "the word".

Also there are many "apostles" after the time of Jesus.. these were errant gnostics as Mohammed points out. Mohammed was also an apostle, for apostles teach new light.

Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Comment: Raul we are only in disagreement because we have not understood the words true meanings.

If we are to trust Mohammed we must also assume that he would not have contradicted himself. He would not have meant that Jesus died but no one could kill him. For ultimately death itself would have still killed him and become victor over him. So then was Mohammed wrong and Jesus was not the messiah or Jesus died and was not raised? So one verse from the Quran has to be "interpreted" (by clerics) wrong or the Quran contradicts itself. The Quran cannot contradict itself or it is not the word of God the same goes for the Bible. God is not the author of confusion.

See the logic?

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Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

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True, the Messiah is the savior, but no in the sense that he will forgive all those who believed in him. He is a savior like all other Prophets, who guide people from the ignorance and disbelife into the light and guidance of Allah. However, of course Jesus is a Sign of the Hour and he will return as a saviour to the believers on Earth, who along with the Mahdi, will slay the Dajjal and defeat the anarchists and nonbelievers. At that time he will be a just ruler. However, nor he or will any of the Prophets (PBUT) become everyone is accountable for their own deeds.

Whosoever does right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he does right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. (Al-Israa' 17: 15)

Your only true saviour is Allah Himself. Not Muhammad, nor Jesus, nor Moses, nor Abraham, etc. (PBUT) - everyone will have to face their own account with God. Thus-

"O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Do not despair of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Turn to your Lord (in repentance) and bow to His Will, before the Penalty comes upon you: after that you shall not be helped. (Az-Zumar, 53-54)

BTW, just to clarify, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, he did not write the Quran himself. It was sent down to him via the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabreil from Allah. Similar to all the Holy Scriptures, the only difference is that Allah vowed that the Quran would not change untill the Day of Judgement and thus he has kept his promise.

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Raul, It is a blessing and a privilege to talk with you on this subject.

Whosoever does right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he does right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. (Al-Israa' 17: 15)

Comment:
Remember our discussion Raul...

Jesus was not a laden soul because his "soul" came from God not a man. His body came from Mary but his soul (breath life) part came from his father God... Jesus soul was sinless where our souls are not sinless because of the sins of Adam and our souls derive from Adam's soul life. So it was this mystery of this sinless self sacrifice that saved the souls of the believers of the world. It was through the holy blood of the lamb that God made atonement for the souls of the world.

The Quran is very true, no "laden soul" can make atonement but Jesus Christ was not a laden "soul"...

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Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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Raul-7 wrote:

... the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, he did not write the Quran himself. It was sent down to him via the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabreil from Allah. Similar to all the Holy Scriptures, the only difference is that Allah vowed that the Quran would not change untill the Day of Judgement and thus he has kept his promise.

Its changed in the past as the earliest relics of the Koran found at the Great Mosque at Sana'a demonstrate. How can you be sure it wont change in the future, between now and judgement day?

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RexRed wrote:

Raul, It is a blessing and a privilege to talk with you on this subject.

Whosoever does right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he does right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. (Al-Israa' 17: 15)

Comment:
Remember our discussion Raul...

Jesus was not a laden soul because his "soul" came from God not a man. His body came from Mary but his soul (breath life) part came from his father God... Jesus soul was sinless where our souls are not sinless because of the sins of Adam and our souls derive from Adam's soul life. So it was this mystery of this sinless self sacrifice that saved the souls of the believers of the world. It was through the holy blood of the lamb that God made atonement for the souls of the world.

The Quran is very true, no "laden soul" can make atonement but Jesus Christ was not a laden "soul"...

Yes, I too enjoy learning from you. I look forward to your replies.

But there's a difference. You believe in the concept of original sin. However, Adam's sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Quran (for the Quranic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Quran: 2: 30-39; 7: 19-25; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-122, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence, there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

As there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Every child is born into a state of fitrah (natural state of innocence.)" Furthermore, "Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns." (Al-Baqarah 2: 286)

That's God tells you to pray to him alone, we do not need an intermediary to talk to God. God wants to forgive you, that's why mankind is by nature sinful if his soul and piety are not kept in check. We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. (Qaf 50: 16)

All you need to do is ask God, Himself to forgive you and He will if it is in sincere repentance. Trust me and trust your Lord. That's the essence of submission to God's will (Islam) that all the Prophets brought down with them.

When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am near, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may walk in the right way. (Al-Baqarah: 186)

Thus, the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God's message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life.

Which then is best? He that lays his foundation on piety to God and His good pleasure? Or he that lays his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? And it does crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of hell. And God does not guide people that do wrong. (Surat at-Tawba, 109)

It would be dangerous and risky to put all your faith in that Jesus (PBUH) will forgive you, afterall God said he put Jesus's followers above those who didn't. Meaning the ones who followed the religion he was sent with strictly, thus abstaining from eating pork and fornication; praying regularly and paying alms, all what Jesus (PBUH) ordered to do. I have yet to find a Christian is in complete submission to Allah? I think you're the closest one I've known that actually believes in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

May God bless and guides us both onto the Straight Path. Ameen.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:
... the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, he did not write the Quran himself. It was sent down to him via the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabreil from Allah. Similar to all the Holy Scriptures, the only difference is that Allah vowed that the Quran would not change untill the Day of Judgement and thus he has kept his promise.
Its changed in the past as the earliest relics of the Koran found at the Great Mosque at Sana'a demonstrate. How can you be sure it wont change in the future, between now and judgement day?

I do not have reason to doubt the authenticity of the Quran or the truth of Mohammed so I won't doubt them until I have reason. Even If I have reason I am not necessarily going to doubt the Quran, I will just re-examine my reasons.

It is not necessarily the Quran but the reasons we attach to it. I believe the Bible helps in understanding both the Quran and Judaism.
I consider the Bible though pertinent to understanding the spirit as it relates to Islam and Judaism. The Bible spells the truth out rather than talking in many parables and dreams.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:
... the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, he did not write the Quran himself. It was sent down to him via the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabreil from Allah. Similar to all the Holy Scriptures, the only difference is that Allah vowed that the Quran would not change untill the Day of Judgement and thus he has kept his promise.
Its changed in the past as the earliest relics of the Koran found at the Great Mosque at Sana'a demonstrate. How can you be sure it wont change in the future, between now and judgement day?

Steve,

Here's your answer, although I doubt you will accept it and find some loophole in it to make you seem correct-

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/mosque_of_sanaa.htm

One of the first original compiled Quranic book (there were 4, only 2 remain, the other is in Russia), which can be found in Istanbul. If I take my Quran and compare it to that one, it will be the same word-for-word.

May Allah guide you.

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Raul-7 wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Raul, It is a blessing and a privilege to talk with you on this subject.

Whosoever does right, it is only for (the good of) his own soul that he does right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. (Al-Israa' 17: 15)

Comment:
Remember our discussion Raul...

Jesus was not a laden soul because his "soul" came from God not a man. His body came from Mary but his soul (breath life) part came from his father God... Jesus soul was sinless where our souls are not sinless because of the sins of Adam and our souls derive from Adam's soul life. So it was this mystery of this sinless self sacrifice that saved the souls of the believers of the world. It was through the holy blood of the lamb that God made atonement for the souls of the world.

The Quran is very true, no "laden soul" can make atonement but Jesus Christ was not a laden "soul"...

Yes, I too enjoy learning from you. I look forward to your replies.

But there's a difference. You believe in the concept of original sin. However, Adam's sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Quran (for the Quranic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Quran: 2: 30-39; 7: 19-25; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-122, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence, there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

As there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Every child is born into a state of fitrah (natural state of innocence.)" Furthermore, "Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns." (Al-Baqarah 2: 286)

That's God tells you to pray to him alone, we do not need an intermediary to talk to God. God wants to forgive you, that's why mankind is by nature sinful if his soul and piety are not kept in check. We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. (Qaf 50: 16)

All you need to do is ask God, Himself to forgive you and He will if it is in sincere repentance. Trust me and trust your Lord. That's the essence of submission to God's will (Islam) that all the Prophets brought down with them.

When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am near, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may walk in the right way. (Al-Baqarah: 186)

Thus, the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God's message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life.

Which then is best? He that lays his foundation on piety to God and His good pleasure? Or he that lays his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? And it does crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of hell. And God does not guide people that do wrong. (Surat at-Tawba, 109)

It would be dangerous and risky to put all your faith in that Jesus (PBUH) will forgive you, afterall God said he put Jesus's followers above those who didn't. Meaning the ones who followed the religion he was sent with strictly, thus abstaining from eating pork and fornication; praying regularly and paying alms, all what Jesus (PBUH) ordered to do. I have yet to find a Christian is in complete submission to Allah? I think you're the closest one I've known that actually believes in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

May God bless and guides us both onto the Straight Path. Ameen.

Raul, thank-you

The Bible does not (at least from my knowledge) teach us that Jesus forgives us our sins. This only occurred when he was present on the earth forgiving sins in on God's behalf.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Comment::
The Bible says that God is just, and if we ask him with an honest heart he will forgive us our sins. He does not forgive us from disobeying the old testament laws he forgives us for disobeying his law of liberty.

There is a fundamental difference between remission of sins and forgiveness of sins.

Remission of sins comes only once in a lifetime and it comes when the spirit is created within. This remission comes when a believer accepts the spirit of God through the works of Christ Jesus.

Did Mohammed ever mention "remission" of sins? There is a difference. remission of sins comes after a person receives the seed of the spirit, forgiveness of sins is after that event so as to maintain holiness and the balanced walk of liberty and love.

Also I do believe the Quran is right that God does not guide us into wrong he leads into the law of liberty. God does not "test" us and cause bad things to happen to us to teach us "lessons", God only has good to give us.

Also to acknowledge that the original sin brought death into the world this death is still here and even though we are innocent of our own sins we still have the curses in the blood of from our ancestors. Many of these curses are in the flesh (DNA). We will all suffer this death of the flesh but we will not suffer death spiritually as Adam and Eve did.

The holy spirit is exactly that, holy. It cannot be corrupted. The heart/mind can eclipse the the spirit. For this we need forgiveness from prejudice and inhumanity, thought by thought.

A messiah is a "deliverer", what did Jesus deliver if it was not the holy spirit?

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Follow-up

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/12/6/163139.shtml?s=al&promo_code=2A43-1

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Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

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