Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

What Light Wizard does not know, or will not admit, is that ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES, such as gay scoutmasters or gay teachers can, indeed, tip a genetically "prepared" person into the gay life style.

That is why the right wing bigots are so up tight about Gay scoutmasters, Gay teachers and any other gay influences found in the environment.

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BernardR wrote:

What Light Wizard does not know, or will not admit, is that ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES, such as gay scoutmasters or gay teachers can, indeed, tip a genetically "prepared" person into the gay life style.

But he does know that and he has admitted that. Let me submit to you this quote in which he acknowledges that homosexuality is not 100% genetic and that environmental influences can tip a genetically "prepared" person into the gay life style.

Lightwizard wrote:

BTW, the genetic study did not claim that 50% of all homosexuals are entirely the result of genetic lines and 50% is the result entirely of environment. A curious interpretation twisted to suit one's own bias. It's pointing toward the idea that in each individual who is gay, 50% of the cause is genetic and 50% is environment. This is, of course, an arbitrary conclusion based on one inconclusive study, focusing on a single gay gene rather than a combination of genes.

Realizing, of course, that if someone is born in an isolated town in the Mid-west and is not meeting any other gay people who are overtly out, they have no stimulus for coming out. This is Ennis in "Brokeback Mountain," who in addition to not meeting someone else until Jack is actually homophobic himself, and feeling remains throughout their twenty-year relationship depicted in the film. In other words, he will only do it with Jack because he's in love with Jack. In the final scenes, he may have given up his homophobia but it could also be he will not seek out any other man and remain single as he's also rejected a heterosexual relationship. I'm writing for those who have actually seen the film, not to those who have not and prejudicially judged it because their rightwing blogs, et al, have proclaimed it a bad movie with bad morals.

Also...

[qupte=snood]Lightwizard how do you figure that if a straight man goes gay, he's been in denial of his gayness, but if a gay man goes straight, he's still in denial of his gayness? Does that seem to follow logically to you, or is that just 'the way it is'?[/quote]

It's very logical. The pressure to be straight is greater than the pressure to be gay. Many homosexuals are afraid of coming out of the closet for fear of retribution or rejection by friends, family and the community. Denial of heterosexuality is practically non-existent because of these social pressures.

This leads to a situation of closet homosexuals and those that go back into the closet out of fear.

There is, of course, the existence of bisexuals and varying degrees of bisexuality that complicate the picture. However, these people are still not changing their sexuality. They are still bisexual.

It is possible that those gay men that turn straight are in denial or bisexuals with a larger preference for women that are in denial of their bisexuality.

Sexuality is insanely difficult to change, more so than the conversion organisations would have you believe as it is not a 100% environmental cause.

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No one here that I've seen has posited that it's 100% environmental. If it's partially environmental and not 100% biological, the possibility exists for someone to change from gay to straight, just as other possibilities you readily acknowledge.

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snood wrote:

No one here that I've seen has posited that it's 100% environmental. If it's partially environmental and not 100% biological, the possibility exists for someone to change from gay to straight, just as other possibilities you readily acknowledge.

Nope. If they're gay they're either 100% gay or gay with a minor preference to women.

Let's say sexuality is on the Kinsey scale of 1 to 10 (I'm not sure if that's his actual scale or not, but let's say it is).

1 is 100% gay. 10 is 100% straight. 5 is immediately in between.

Gay would imply anything below 5. These people will have a major predilection towards males. They find males far more attractive than women. The likelihood of them turning straight is next to nil.

Straight would imply anything above 5. Now, these people might experiment. Their experimentation might last a very long time, but it does not change the fact that they weren't gay to begin with.

Those who become gay, weren't straight to begin with.
Those who become straight, weren't gay to begin with or may be in denial because of societal pressures.

The society, people's environment, pressures them into being heterosexual. Their parents do it, their friends do it, (Lightwizard's situation seems very bizarre to me, as I've never met anyone in a situation where he was surrounded by gay friends from a very early age), the churches do it and so forth.

It's so great that anyone with a minor attraction to males cannot be gays in denial. Such a minor attraction would be suppressed.

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Bi-sexuals, which I have had extensive experiences with, are in that Kinsey 4, 5, 6 range but I know of no basically heterosexual man who "becomes gay" because of environment. There may be some drunken or drugged experimentation when very young and it may or may not remain a traumatic experience. Some in the middle of the scale can just, as the old mantra goes, "meet the right person" but if there is sex, it's the convincing of the willing. I guess I need to remind everyone that I cultivated a relationship in the 80's for many years with a bi-sexual. Let's say they have one leg in the closet and one leg out. Whether the pendulum eventually swings completely one way or another is an act of nature, but there will always be the temptation to "go the other way" even in an established gay or straight committed relationship. Around 50% of couples get divorced in this country and the usual reason is adultery, often un-established adultery due to the spouse not wanting to admit the person has slept with someone else, especially someone else of the same sex. Men on the 1, 2 and 3 end of the Kinsey scale will likely never even give a thought to sex with a woman but will have several female friends, curiously are they ever lesbians. One of my best friends is an art and lighting client, her husband's brother is gay in in a long term relationship, and owns a company were he has to travel outside the country. I'm having lunch with her sometime this week or next and deliverying some lighting products they ordered. Of course, the price I charge them is beyond being accomodating but I stay overnight at their house in Laguna Beach quite often. Have no attraction to her husband -- he's just a really nice Irishman who has a gay brother in a commited, long term relationship. Well, she's about half Japanese and half Jewish (she laughs when I rib her about that with various ethnic jokes).

On the reverse side, I see no gay man who is attractive and living a gay lifestyle who would ever be able to live in a heterosexual relationship. The percentage of those who have decided that some religious program will change them and they can live, again with societal pressures, will push the gayness into the sub-conscious and be in denial while letting God and Jesus "keep them in the light." Bullcrappy.

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Many men turn gay because of hormone changes.

They get red faced (estrogen) and lose their hair (testosterone)

This hormone imbalance take a man and moves him back toward the feminine. The female begins to lose their hair (testosterone) and they grow facial hair. This is not just a few people. All people go thorough hormonal changes in mid life.

Welcome to the club.

http://www.aocd.org/skin/dermatologic_diseases/female_pattern_hai.html

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BernardR wrote:

What Light Wizard does not know, or will not admit, is that ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES, such as gay scoutmasters or gay teachers can, indeed, tip a genetically "prepared" person into the gay life style.

That is why the right wing bigots are so up tight about Gay scoutmasters, Gay teachers and any other gay influences found in the environment.

My straight scout master made me more convinced that gays were where it was at. I would never go back to the other side even if I could. Even my fellow scouts distanced themselves from this tyrannical sexist.

My old scout leader is probably considering the jail time spent right now for wife battery. When he no longer had a queer to take his anger out on he probably started on her. Which is really sad...

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RexRed wrote:

Many men turn gay because of hormone changes.

Surely, that's an exaggeration?

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Many men turn gay because of hormone changes.

Surely, that's an exaggeration?

Go down to the local "bears club" in any gay bar and you will find that most of the men were not gay as youngsters. Many if not most have ex-wives.

I on the other hand remember having gay fantasies at 3 years old.

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The gallery chain I worked for had a driver who transported the art from Miami to Newport Beach. He was married straight but recently got a divorce. I would say he was a "bear" type and likely in the 4, 5, 6 range on the Kinsey scale as he told me he had had homosexual relationships outside his marriage for the entire term. He recently divorced but would not divulge the reason(s). He was not in the least effeminate. Hormone changes I suppose can have some periferal influence but it cannot be the only reason why someone crosses over that fence. Again, this is as complex as love itself is complex and our understanding of how if functions will take many, many more years and we still might not have all the answers. The homophones have the answers -- they just summarily pronounce their hatred of anything gay and there will always be the suspicion that this is an overreaction to their own internal feelings.

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http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov04/hormones.html

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"Homophones" Very Happy

Phone owned by homosexuals?

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RexRed wrote:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov04/hormones.html

Don't see anywhere that this supports your hormonal change theory regarding coming out or going into the closet.

I'm working in a gallery now in Laguna Beach where the owner has always had a high pitched voice and when he begins selling a customer, his arms wave around in very effeminate gestures. Yet he is an unmarried, skirt chasing, full blooded heterosexual. I'm sure it's a hormonal imbalance that causes this and he's even complained to me that many people think he is gay (it bothers him), yet he is completely open minded towards gays. He looks like Woody Harrelson, BTW.

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Lightwizard wrote:

RexRed wrote:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov04/hormones.html

Don't see anywhere that this supports your hormonal change theory regarding coming out or going into the closet.

It shows that hormones can easily change behavior.

http://psych.unn.ac.uk/users/nick/hormonespp09/index.htm

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Being gay is not necessarily "a behavior." Some of the outward, obvious manifistations, like the proverbial screaming queen can be a behavior.

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Lightwizard wrote:

I'm working in a gallery now in Laguna Beach where the owner has always had a high pitched voice and when he begins selling a customer

Selling a customer? What kind of business is this guy running?

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An art gallery in Laguna Beach.

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Was that a stupid question or were you being facetiously humorous?

(No, he's not running a call service on the side).

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Lightwizard wrote:

Being gay is not necessarily "a behavior." Some of the outward, obvious manifistations, like the proverbial screaming queen can be a behavior.

Considering a pheromone can cause attraction, and hormones can chemically set up receptability of pheromones. Attraction is a behavior.

Alcohol lowers receptability...

http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/bmep402/Lecture/Lecture11/Lecture%2011_6.pdf#search=%22receptability%22

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RexRed wrote:

Lightwizard wrote:
Being gay is not necessarily "a behavior." Some of the outward, obvious manifistations, like the proverbial screaming queen can be a behavior.

Considering a pheromone can cause attraction, and hormones can chemically set up receptability of pheromones. Attraction is a behavior.

Your proof of this? I can find no reference to the tie in of hormones and pheromones except that pheromones are incorrectly identified as hormones. If there is a study which shows pheromones can be altered by changes in hormones, let's have it.

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Jesus Christ and Homosexuality.

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