Who and where are the real Jews?

@The Anointed,

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Idols are nothing, and any edible food that has been offered to nothing cannot harm you.

Idols of the heart are not nothing.

Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Ezekiel 14:3

Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock!...
Zechariah 11:17 (KJV)

2 Replies

@The Anointed,

There's also this one.

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9The next day at about the sixth hour, as the men were approaching the city on their journey, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.

11He saw heaven open and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, as well as birds of the air. 13Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”

14“No, Lord!” Peter answered. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15The voice spoke to him a second time: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16This happened three times, and all at once the sheet was taken back up into heaven.

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@Theo202,

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Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock!...
Zechariah 11:17 (KJV)

You are determined to dump your verbal dysentery onto Paul, the Holy Apostle of Christ Jesus, and Peter who said of Paul in 2 Peter 3: 15-16; Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear brother Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him. This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which 'IGNORANT AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE PEOPLE' explain falsely, as they do with other passages of the Scriptures. So they bring on their own destruction.

Unlike the Popes of the Roman universal church of Emperor Constantine, Paul's only claim was that he was an Apostle of Christ Jesus, but never that he was the shepherd of God's people.

Where would we Look for the man of perdition as spoken of in Thessalonians 2: 1-4; by Paul, the Holy Apostle of Christ Jesus?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

https://amredeemed.com/popes-claiming-to-be-god-on-earth/

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@Theo202,

I usually do not agree with Anointed. But this seems to fairly right.

I'd also like to point out that in Revelations (which was quoted from by the OP), we have the writer of the fiction (and it is fiction) declaring what God will do to the unbelievers. This is "John" (if that is his name) pretending to be God, and pretending to have inside knowledge, knowledge that Jesus didn't see fit to tell the disciples during his time on Earth. Doesn't this seem suspicious, Theo? That Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected but never told anyone about the Mark of the Beast or the seven signs or any of the other crap that shows up in Revelation?

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@bulmabriefs144,

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I usually do not agree with Anointed. But this seems to fairly right.

Not even close. Paul was a liar, so he's a good fit as one of the false apostles who were rejected at Ephesus.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:24

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@Theo202,

Which is a greater lie...

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35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Btw, we actually can't prove Paul wrote this)

Or this?

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17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. And a mighty shout came from the throne in the Temple, saying, “It is finished!” 18 Then the thunder crashed and rolled, and lightning flashed. And a great earthquake struck—the worst since people were placed on the earth. 19 The great city of Babylon split into three sections, and the cities of many nations fell into heaps of rubble. So God remembered all of Babylon’s sins, and he made her drink the cup that was filled with the wine of his fierce wrath. 20 And every island disappeared, and all the mountains were leveled. 21 There was a terrible hailstorm, and hailstones weighing as much as seventy-five pounds fell from the sky onto the people below. They cursed God because of the terrible plague of the hailstorm.

You seem to think this is more real, but even though in Revelation, they say all of these things shall happen soon, they have not happen in 2000 years. Meanwhile, most of what Jesus predicted can be attributed to his death and resurrection, or to the times of upheaval surrounding the fall of the temple. That came true, even if the world doesn't recognize it.
Revelation is nonsense and wishful thinking from a violent and vengeful man, predicting the destruction of a fourth of the population here or there, until he reviewed his fractions and was like "Oh wait, that's everyone!" Sure is. So he revives everyone so he can kill off "just the wicked" and have the righteous go to a new heaven & earth. Oh wait, that's still everyone.
The Bible tells us that none of us are worthy before God. None of us would escape this nonsense condemnation.

So the bigger lie? It's not what Paul said. He lived where persecution we real not on some island. He nonetheless knew that God offered unconditionally his grace. He knew this personally, having experienced grace for himself.

I too am a liar. I write books of religious theory, where I cannot be sure what I say is true. I write a rule book for an RPG, I am not dealing in the real world. And I write fiction novels. You know what, at the end of the day, the truth is Jesus. And if you make him into a mass murderer, you have committed a far greater lie than anything Paul might have taught.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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You seem to think this is more real, but even though in Revelation, they say all of these things shall happen soon, they have not happen in 2000 years.

Source?

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@Theo202,

Google it, nit wit. Like we have to do for your nauseating crapola.

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@Theo202,

Revelation seems to think there is a New Jerusalem, coming straight from Heaven. Yay, all out problems are solved! I bought this for quite awhile, worried I too might be compelled to accept the Mark of the Beast.
Until I read this.
This text saved my live when I was having a real spiritual crisis, and convinced me the text I was reading was unnecessary, evil, and actually written by the Devil. As Hollywood likes to say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that..." Except there is, of course.

So this is Israel today.

https://mondoweiss.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/VP-ID-OpChart-FINAL-EN-20140515.png

You mind telling me how the wonderful exclusive land that God supposedly has in store for everyone absolutely perfect in his perfect Jerusalem is so much better than the horror show that already exists in present day Jerusalem? Because a reading of the book of Revelation would give 100% of the population in the "can't live" and "can't vote" category. We are not on our own merit fit for the kingdom of Heaven, no matter how much we stay away from idolatry, prostitution, gambling, witchcraft. If it were up to God without Jesus involved in our defense (and indeed, if Jesus is involved in our judgement), every last one of us would be tossed into the fire. But God has given Jesus on our behalf, which means every word of the "gospel" of Revelations is a gospel other than the one given to you (Galat 1:8). At least in the above chart, a sizable majority has a sizable portion of Israel.

Lemme explain to you what Revelation actually is:
1. The fever dreams of "John" (according to Apocalypse Deception: The Book of Revelation is not What it Claims to Be, this figure is not the Disciple John nor even the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved, but Cerinthus)
2. Spiritually inspired all right, but inspired by a spirit of addiction (Revelation at one point mentions that Pergamum is Satan's throne, so the Apocalypse Deception book above explains why, it is home to a cult of Asclepios

https://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Rod_of_asclepius.jpg

often associated with medicine. Recall that the symbol of Satan is also a snake. So this man is in a den with snakes and drugs and kinds of funky healing baths and crystals and stuff, and any kind of healing he was getting was probably giving him fever dreams)
3. Thus what we are actually reading is a sort of game plan for domination by Satan. But Satan can never win against God because he is part of God's existence and creation, and thus powerless against him. This is really a manmade rebellion fantasy against God. Evil nonsense. Throw it in the garbage. Burn it. Walk away.

Now once you have done this, maybe burn a few more books that seem to say the same thing, and read what is left against the badly singed scraps. You'll quickly find that if nothing can separate is from God's love through Jesus, then a tattoo or whatever is having the number 666 (or was it 616? They didn't even bother to make it consistent) has no bearing at all on your soul. Likewise, the pleasant images no longer leave any appeal, because one realizes they are a false utopia come about as a result of horrific murder of a majority if not all of the population, and that anyone actually living in such a place is living in the Biblical equivalent of The Good Place (the first one, not at the end of the series, which also wasn't so hot). Life has pain. It's there to build character. This is what the Letters tell us (I think I may have mistakenly burned some of them too, but anyway, I understand now). The Letters from Paul and Jesus himself both contradict the notion of utopianism and millenialism. In fact, every utopian millenialist movement has reared its ugly head, and turned out to be something like communism, which caused the death of millions upon millions of people. Forcing people to be unselfish. What could go wrong? Or forcing everyone to be the same race or religion or whatever. No no, there could never be a problem here, everyone just follow these ideals and there will be peace and love and friendship. Only, humans hate that crap. Because that's not real life. That's like drinking nonfat no-lactose milk, there's something horribly unsatisfying about the whole thing. Even though it doesn't have anything supposedly bad for you, it's not what you really need.

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

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You mind telling me how the wonderful exclusive land that God supposedly has in store for everyone absolutely perfect in his perfect Jerusalem is so much better than the horror show that already exists in present day Jerusalem?

Your answer is in Zechariah 12:5-6

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cult of Asclepios

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Numbers 21:9

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:14

The serpent that Moses lifted up wasn't a real serpent, just like the crucifixion was not what the Christians say it is.

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@Theo202,

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Your answer is in Zechariah 12:5-6

Maybe.

(Looks up)

NO. Besides which, one must be careful about trying to interpret prophecy.

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5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

This can easily mean that the "governors of Judah" are people like Herod (not Rome). Inhabited again in her own place can made razed to the ground and reoccupied. We humans should be wary of prophecy, and especially wary of trying to make prophecy mean what we want it to mean. Prophecy is a dangerous tool that usually undoes the user. Or listener. Or do you not remember reading Oedipus Rex and Macbeth in school? Not to mention the prophecy made of Anakin Skywalker.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/970807722599665714/yoda.png

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And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

And it didn't occur to you to critically read, and to understand that God was giving them an idol to tide them over? God gave the Jews "training wheels" until the real thing arrived. They weren't spiritually mature. Over and over again, the Jews were called to sacrifice the Paschal Lamb, a slaughter that took place first in their homes, and when the Temple was built, it got supplanted by sacrificial ritual (which led to this lamb shank crap). But the real one wasn't lamb at all, but the Lamb of God.

Likewise, God gave them idols deliberately, then punished them for worshiping those.

(Yes, God is officially the coolest troll ever)

He was waiting to show him what they should worship, not the cross but the guy on it.

But even this is a bit of an idol because it fixes the form of Jesus.

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2013/09/16/10/18NAZARETH1609.jpg

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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:14

The serpent that Moses lifted up wasn't a real serpent, just like the crucifixion was not what the Christians say it is.

Sigh...

https://c.tenor.com/6HwcYSSpszUAAAAC/hamsteak-hammy.gif

Just as the serpent was (an idol) lifted up in order to save the Jews from poisonous snakes in the wilderness, so was Jesus lifted up (in crucifixion) to save us from our sins by being under a curse.

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10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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NO.

Do you have a better one?

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@Theo202,

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/970810011536211989/New_Bitmap_Image.png

There, happy?

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@bulmabriefs144,

Any reasonable explanation is better than no explanation. Rejecting it shows your prejudice.

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@Theo202,

Every Jew that rejected Jesus thought they knew what that meant. They thought they knew what Messiah was. But humans don't know a damned thing about what God plans.

Every Jew thus convinced was further convinced by the events of Maccabees. "This Messiah is gonna come and overthrow the Romans, just you wait." Then "Huh?!? What is he doing? He must not be the Messiah. Crucify him!"

To quote the people who liked Trump for awhile then fell away, "I am off the Trump train." (I quit supporting Trump about when I quit supporting presidents in general. Today, I like the guy again, but I'm not riding any political trains. Waste of time) That's kinda what Jesus's followers were like. One moment, they were spreading palm leaves, and less than a week later, they told people they have no king but Caesar.

But Jesus fulfilled a crap ton of prophecies about the Bible.

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One scholar, J. Barton Payne, has found as many as 574 verses in the Old Testament that somehow point to or describe or reference the coming Messiah. Alfred Edersheim found 456 Old Testament verses referring to the Messiah or His times. Conservatively, Jesus fulfilled at least 300 prophecies in His earthly ministry.

If we are counting on people misreading a few of them, he may have fulfilled all that weren't actual false prophecies. Jesus was the Messiah.
https://www.gotquestions.org/prophecies-of-Jesus.html
Feel free to look at the link for yourself.

The Jews heard what they wanted to hear, and were unimpressed with the one that we trying to save them. Jesus found a better audience among the outcasts, the sinners, and the Gentiles. So did his followers. The Jews were a lost cause as most of them couldn't stomach the idea of losing their Jewishness.

I assume you're a Jew? Rabbi Somethin G'orother has told you all the reasons why Jesus can't be Messiah? Something like this?
https://jewsforjudaism.ca/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/

Let's examine these:

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The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

The Bible canonically says that he had an adopted father. It goes on to say that his adopted father is a descendant of King Solomon. It goes to say that his biological mother is a direct descendant of King David and has a bloodline that traces cleanly all the way back to Adam (it's fascinating to see this, actually because this is the punchline of pretty much the Old Testament, all of these begats)! Why isn't he biologically related to Solomon. That would prove that he was the Messiah, right?

Because the Messiah must be of the line of David and the line of Solomon. But no descendant of Solomon can be the Messiah, because Solomon's descendant is Jeconiah! The Bible explains at one point of the Bible that the line of Jeconiah is actually cursed, and no king (and thus no proper Messiah, since he's supposed to be called "King of the Jews") can be of that line. This is bizarre conundrum. Either God takes back his word, or a miracle is needed to overcome this. Whether or not you believe the virgin birth, the Messiah, by definition can be related to King Solomon only by adoption. Moving on...

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Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles
When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Hasn't it?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/970841024127725588/Screen_Shot_2020-07-03_at_15.13.09.png

Cuz I see Jews slowly putting an end to bullshit "Palestine" and reclaiming a state of Israel. I would prefer they allow visitors, like the mitzvot says about welcoming strangers. The Christians belong in parts of Israel (mostly Bethlehem, and various Christian sites). The Samaritans already have their sacred place without hurting a fly, so long as Jews respect their right to autonomy (they've kinda failed at this). The "Palestinians" need to be given the boot, then welcomed back only if they make nice. The Palestinians are Muslims from hostiles countries, plain and simple. The two-state solution does not work. Israel is one state that has a duty under Torah to welcome tourists.

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Rebuilding of the Holy Temple

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’s day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Nonsense. It was destroyed because you FAILED to recognize the Messiah. Maybe, MAYBE you will get it back when you do two things (1) drive the damned Muslims (Amalekites) out with the provision for return that they accept God granted them sovereignty over their own country and they are visitors not overlords, and (2) welcome the Christian and Samaritan who are your brothers. The Law says to punish the perpetual enemy of the Jews, and to welcome travelers.

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Worldwide Reign of Peace

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

After Christianity, the world DID get more peaceful.
27 BC: Rome sets out on a bloody and violent conquest that covered most of the world
286 AD+: Rome begins to crumble after accepting Christianity, undermining their Roman identity (along with several other issues). The Holy Roman Empire ambles along, gradually forming into distinct countries which less and less frequently fight with each other.
793-1066 AD: The Vikings move from sacking villages gradually to Christianity. They do this for a variety of reasons, but a big reason was trade with the Christians. They settle down, and well no more Vikings. But Denmark and Norway and Sweden are pretty chill, yah?

It is only when the world begins to embrace atheism (anti-Christian/anti-Judaism), that the world in the last two centuries actually got more violent again. Islam resurfaces, and you get various socialist regimes (including the national socialists and the fascists).

But even if it weren't God's peace is different from our peace.
Which would humans prefer, to be peacefully ruled under the iron thumb of a dictator? Or to have a bloody war, after which your country is uncertain what to do until it hatches a plan to make their country welcome people of different ethnic backgrounds, religions, and ideals? America is constantly bickering, but we have a United States. For now anyway.

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Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Let's read a passage, shall we?

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4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; 5 and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint us a king to judge us like all the nations.” 6 But the matter was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them. 8 Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day—in that they have abandoned Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you as well. 9 Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall warn them strongly and tell them of the practice of the king who will reign over them.”

He tells them that they'll be taxed, their women will be exploited, and their men will be sent to war. They don't care, they want to be like other nations. So they get kings, each worse than the last, until God exiles them. God's original state for Israel was an anarchic theocracy.

This is the sort of "king" that God intends for us, is far different from what they Jews want.

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25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant.

The Jews want a king to lord over them. That's THEIR hangup.

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Universal Knowledge of G-d

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

The entire world does know that God exists. They are in denial. I know this for a fact from talking in this forum and watching izzy and others have nothing real to say in response so they just use a standby of one sort or another. This is fine.

But the Messiah that forces them to serve God is tyrant, a king that lords over others. The Lord is God because he existed even when there was absolutely nobody to worship him. He likes our company, but he doesn't need our worship or sacrifices. God's only real request is to our sanity. Don't think up crazy reasons why God can't exist and drive yourself crazy. God exists, Jesus is the Messiah and has defended Israel by rendering its enemies powerless (Egypt, Rome, even Britain all fell apart when they put Jews in danger (Britain denied them a proper homeland, opening them up to Nazi aggression)), and Holy Spirit is among us.

So again, NO. Your passage is based on a nonsense prediction of what the Messiah is.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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The Jews were a lost cause as most of them couldn't stomach the idea of losing their Jewishness.

Recognition of the Messiah doesn't require anyone Jewish to abandon Judaism - quite the opposite since he endorsed the Torah. The main issue for Jews was (and is) that the religious hierarchy rejected the Messiah.

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Cuz I see Jews slowly putting an end to bullshit "Palestine" and reclaiming a state of Israel.

They're not reclaiming anything. Their inheritance of the land isn't based on citizenship and the territory of the state of Israel isn't the same as the land the the house of Judah inherited.

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@Theo202,

It doesn't? Are you sure? Cuz my Jewish friend considers that the Messianic Jews aren't real Jews, but Christians with a sort of tacked-on Judaism. It could be that he's right and the sect is a bad attempt. I asked him about Arameans, which are described as Israeli Chistians, and he sees them as Christians only. There's no sense of being Israeli in his mind. (He's pretty Jewish nationalist with the idea that if he ran the country, there wouldn't be regions like the two-state but rather the Jews could vote, and the non-Jews are considered visitors)

So to his mind, which I'm basing Jewish thought on the matter on, accepting that Jesus is the Messiah only (nevermind believing he is the Son of God or rose from the dead, just that one idea), means you have lost your Jewishness . In fact, that is the issue, that basically the Jewish hierarchy strongly pressures them, and then rabbis offer "reasons" (which I picked apart above) why Jesus can't be the Messiah.

You are correct. The land they received in the deal is a best guess. But there are some maps drawn in the Bible of old Israel, and they give us a rough estimate of the land. The Palestines that occupy Gaza strip are in about the same exact area. Israel is about the same area but much smaller than either Canaan or Israel at its peak.

https://cdn.sciencesensei.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/26-1.jpg

http://www.jesuswalk.com/isaiah/maps/philistia-1173x1800x300.jpg

Palestines claim they ruled the whole area. That's nonsense. A legal fiction.
They have always occupied the Gaza strip, except period where Jews were wandering outside Israel because Rome had had divided up their country.

Jews have right to national sovereignty. They have signed an agreement with Britain and denying them the right to exist is breach of contract.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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It doesn't? Are you sure?

Absolutely.

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Cuz my Jewish friend considers that the Messianic Jews aren't real Jews, but Christians with a sort of tacked-on Judaism.

Your friend is right. Messianic Jews are not true to their name, but that's because they follow the priesthood like the Christians and Orthodox Jews do. If they fixed that then they would end up a lot like Muslims in their beliefs.

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So to his mind, which I'm basing Jewish thought on the matter on, accepting that Jesus is the Messiah only (nevermind believing he is the Son of God or rose from the dead, just that one idea), means you have lost your Jewishness .

My question to him would be: are Karaite Jews legitimate, and if so, if they interpreted the prophets as endorsing a first century Messiah then would they become illegitimate?

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Jews have right to national sovereignty.

So do the people of the house of Israel and the descendants of Ishmael. Herzl's ambitions for "Greater Israel" do not respect those rights.

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@Theo202,

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So do the people of the house of Israel and the descendants of Ishmael.

Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away, for he was to have no part in the inheritance of Isaac and his Son Israel.

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Who and where are the real Jews?

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