8
   

Who and where are the real Jews?

 
 
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2006 10:33 pm
Who and where are the real Jews?

What does Jesus mean in these two verse?

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

From these verses it looks like during the end times there are two sets of people, one real and one false. These people will deceive people into believing that they are real Jews. This then brings to mind some very serious questions:

1. Are there a group of people in the world who have been parading as Jews, but they are not?
2. If so where are these people?
3. Who have they deceived?
4. Are they part of the great deception which is supposed to come upon the earth?
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2006 10:42 pm
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.......

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Rom 4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also....

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


The New Testament teaches that Christians are Jews.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2006 10:57 pm
Large bunch of whoha flowing down a Niagara of commentary...
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2006 10:59 pm
Didn't think I talked quite that long.

Just trying to answer the man's question.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jul, 2006 05:44 am
real life wrote:
Didn't think I talked quite that long.

Just trying to answer the man's question.


I think he was referring to Mindonfire, although this time round he seems to have gotten the idea that long posts are generally ignored.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jul, 2006 07:51 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
real life wrote:
Didn't think I talked quite that long.

Just trying to answer the man's question.


I think he was referring to Mindonfire, although this time round he seems to have gotten the idea that long posts are generally ignored.


You ignore does long posts to your own detriment
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jul, 2006 08:46 am
If you are referring to Jesus' institution of a New Covenant with his disciples at the Passover of 33 C.E., then spiritual Israel would be those currently adhering to that covenant relationship.

The covenant with natural Israel expired, according to Daniel 9:27, at the end of the "seventy weeks", which corresponds with the Baptism of Cornelius in late 36 C.E..

That God no longer maintained a covenant with natural Israel became obvious when, in 70 C.E., Jerusalem was overrun and their family genealogies were lost.

Edited to add:
False Jews, then, would be those claiming to be in a covenant relationship, but whose practices prove them false.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 01:00 am
So according to the Christians, all christians are Jews and the Jews are the false Jews. Can I presume that to the Jews, the Jews are the Jews and the Christians are the false Jews?

Is it safe to assume that neither side actually knows which of them are the false Jews? .... or do they really think the other side knows and they are all just lying?

I'm just thinking....Pascal is gonna be in a world of pain here....before anyone even mentions Islam.

...and the People's Front of Judea are gonna be really pissed....
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 02:41 am
Eorl wrote:
So according to the Christians, all christians are Jews and the Jews are the false Jews. Can I presume that to the Jews, the Jews are the Jews and the Christians are the false Jews?

Is it safe to assume that neither side actually knows which of them are the false Jews? .... or do they really think the other side knows and they are all just lying?

I'm just thinking....Pascal is gonna be in a world of pain here....before anyone even mentions Islam.

...and the People's Front of Judea are gonna be really pissed....


There is at least one......who knows. :wink:

Not that this is a reason for any of the aformentioned groups to proceed with just a bit of humility. No group is in a position to hold great pride in and of themselves.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 04:55 am
Mindonfire wrote:
You ignore does long posts to your own detriment


It never helps that you don't make any sense in your posts and the fact that the majority of your posts are unnecessarily long, although I see you've improved greatly since I've last been here.

May I point out that neologist seems to have hit the nail on the head?
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 07:42 am
Re: Who and where are the real Jews?
Mindonfire wrote:
Who and where are the real Jews?

What does Jesus mean in these two verse?

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

From these verses it looks like during the end times there are two sets of people, one real and one false. These people will deceive people into believing that they are real Jews. This then brings to mind some very serious questions:

1. Are there a group of people in the world who have been parading as Jews, but they are not?
2. If so where are these people?
3. Who have they deceived?
4. Are they part of the great deception which is supposed to come upon the earth?

Oy vey...
Can't help you with the Christian thing; Jesus kind of went off the Path and Jews no longer claim responsibility for his... uh... philosophies.

However, the point is not too bad.
Yes, there are people who go around "masquerading" as real Jews... kinda, sorta... Although some of them might take offense at that... Well, maybe they're right... They might be "real" Jews, but they simply don't want to practice Judaism.

It's like this - 80 to 90% of those people who were born Jewish in this world, do not believe in or practice the religion of Judaism.
So, they are, halachically (legally) "real" Jews. But they don't particular like Judaism... Or at least they don't particularly believe in it.
It's peculiar...

The "real" Jews are those that practice Judaism. They are called Torah observant Jews or Orthodox Jews or Ultra-Orthodox Jews....
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 05:33 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
You ignore does long posts to your own detriment


It never helps that you don't make any sense in your posts and the fact that the majority of your posts are unnecessarily long, although I see you've improved greatly since I've last been here.

May I point out that neologist seems to have hit the nail on the head?


Keeps those with short attention spans from reading. Can't have a bunch of people with ADD wandering around the Kingdom of Heaven
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 05:44 pm
neologist wrote:
If you are referring to Jesus' institution of a New Covenant with his disciples at the Passover of 33 C.E., then spiritual Israel would be those currently adhering to that covenant relationship.

The covenant with natural Israel expired, according to Daniel 9:27, at the end of the "seventy weeks", which corresponds with the Baptism of Cornelius in late 36 C.E..

That God no longer maintained a covenant with natural Israel became obvious when, in 70 C.E., Jerusalem was overrun and their family genealogies were lost.

Edited to add:
False Jews, then, would be those claiming to be in a covenant relationship, but whose practices prove them false.


Actually God's covenant is like a circle. It never ends. It just changes positions.

So who are those who are claiming to be in a covenant relationship, but whose practices say otherwise?

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I [am] the LORD.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:15 am
No, Mindonfire, it's the fact that your stuff is supposed to be propaganda and it's not very...

Damn, I'm being stupid. Why am I giving you pointers?

Drunk
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 07:37 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
No, Mindonfire, it's the fact that your stuff is supposed to be propaganda and it's not very...

Damn, I'm being stupid. Why am I giving you pointers?

Drunk


To those who don't like the truth iit' propaganda. So what are you spreading?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:20 am
Re: Who and where are the real Jews?
Mindonfire wrote:
1. Are there a group of people in the world who have been parading as Jews, but they are not?

Well, in my youth I hung around with a bunch of Jewannabes -- we called ourselves the He-bro's. Does that count?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:48 am
Mindonfire wrote:
. . . So who are those who are claiming to be in a covenant relationship, but whose practices say otherwise? . .
Those who fail to obey this commandment: "I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves." (John 13: 34,35)
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 07:15 am
Mindonfire wrote:
To those who don't like the truth iit' propaganda. So what are you spreading?


Doubt. I always spread doubt whenever possible, because doubt makes people think about their own beliefs more.
0 Replies
 
NWIslander
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:43 pm
Moishe, I guess that I, along with the 80-90% you mention, am one of those "kinda sorta" Jews. I am Jewish by birth, cultural group, family, feelings about Israel, and food preferences, yet I am an agnostic. Religiously, I am closer to Unitarian than anything else. But I still consider myself Jewish.

This is because being Jewish is a religious designation, but it is not only that, and not even necessarily that. Even back in the shtetl days, those little villages like Tevya's had their atheists. It's complicated, and defies definition.

I would call most of the Jews for Jesus crowd "false Jews." They are not Jewish by any definition that I can think of, they're just using the name.
0 Replies
 
Mindonfire
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 10:39 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
To those who don't like the truth iit' propaganda. So what are you spreading?


Doubt. I always spread doubt whenever possible, because doubt makes people think about their own beliefs more.


That's still propaganda.

Propaganda: (n) 1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
0 Replies
 
 

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