The Albanians

I doubt that there's a clear line after 167/165 when Gentius was defeated by the Romans and Illyria became ... Illyria.

Generally, I find it always astonishing that there a 'tribes' or even nations - espcecially in Europe, which should be 'pure'.

I'm a patriotic Westphalian ( :wink: ) but were my ancestors Francs or Saxons? If Saxons (what the surname would suggest) from what tribe? And from where did this tribe origianally come? (Can't trace back the Hintelers ealier than 1287.)


So, to answer your question: I've no own odea and just follow what I've heard, which generally is mirrored in your first theory.

Thanks for your reply. The subject is really confusing as in Roman writings they were peoples mentioned as Albanians both in the West Balkans and in the West Caspian coast.

Just wanted to add that the official educational system of Albania teaches that the Albanians are inheritors of the Illyrians. However I don't know which was the policy on this during the communist-dictatoric regime of Hoxha.

The Albanian might be a mix of Dacian refugees from East Romania(200 words appeared to be related) and Illyrian/Thracian elements.

i live near albania, corektly in croatia, former jugoslavia, in the past craotia was part of Ilirija, and Alabnia was mix from romans, greeks, makedonians. There was no Tartary army in the Balkan, only in the breif periody.

When in doubt, we can always call them the lost 13th tribe of Israel.

Albanian is a difficult one. I believe that they are an Azbairi people who came from the east with the Turks as paid mercenaries and eventually mixed with the local Slav population. I dont believe they are Illyrian or have any connection whatsover to them. Its a tough subject and a difficult one that needs much reading but so far that is what I have read which makes sense atleast in my opinion.

By the way is this you Panos?

Yes . Ela re Peter, just saw the website in your profile and recognised you, lol. You are indeed a forum maniac, you even found me here .

LOL yeah its me I was bored so I started to browse the internet and saw this dude your avatar is funny as hell! Yeah I run them and I post in so many I forget my snames and passwords lol.

So, welcome to A2K . You can find a lot of interesting conversations here, stick around.

reading along

neighbours of mine describe themselves as ethnic Albanians, but don't seem to know what that means ... so I'm hoping to learn something here

I believe Emporer Constantine was from Illyria. It is ironic that he converted the Roman Empire to Christianity but Albania is now Moslem.

The Albanians call their selves "Shqiptaret" in their language, which means "Sons of the eagles". I am not sure about the origin of the words Albania/Albanians.



Constantine I was born in Moesia, an area inhabited by Illyrians back then, but his parents were both Roman.

COULD ALBANIA BE FROM A WORD MEANING `WHITE'

The Albanians
Well.... well..... well.....
Since when the greeks can make the History of Albania??
eeeeeeeeee Ellinas??
If you knew a little bit about history you should know that:

origin of Albanians
The origin of Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Albanians are people who speak Albanian, an Indo-European language. Though the vocabulary contains some Greek, Latin and Turkish words, the language per se has no other close living relative, making it difficult to determine from what ancient Balkan language it evolved.


Place of origin
The place where the Albanian language was formed is also uncertain, but analyses have suggested that it was in a mountainous region, rather than in a plain or seacoast: while the words for plants and animals characteristic of mountainous regions are entirely original, the names for fish and for agricultural activities (such as ploughing) are borrowed from other languages.

It can also be presumed that the Albanians did not live in Dalmatia, because the Latin influence over Albanian is of Balkan Romance (that evolved into Romanian) origin, rather than of Dalmatian origin. This Balkan Romance influence includes Latin words exhibiting idiomatic expressions and changes in meaning found only in Romanian and not in other Romance languages. Adding to this the words common only to Albanian and Romanian, it may be assumed that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time. Generally, the areas where this might have happened are considered to be regions varying from Transylvania, Eastern Serbia (the region around Naissus), Kosovo and Northern Albania/Macedonia.

However, most agricultural terms in Romanian are of Latin origin, but not the terms related to city activities ?- indicating that Romanians were an agricultural people in the low plains, as opposed to Albanians, who were originally shepherds in the highlands.

Some scholars even explain the gap between the Bulgarian and Serbian languages by postulating an Albanian-Romanian buffer-zone east of the Morava river. Although an intermediary Serbian dialect exists, it was formed only later, after the Serbian expansion to the east.

Another argument that sustains a northern origin of Albanians is the relatively small number of words of Greek origin, although Southern Illyria was under the influence of Greek/Byzantine civilization and language, especially after the breakdown of the Roman Empire.


Written sources
See also:Albania (toponym).

The following written sources are presented as relevant to the origin of Albanians:


Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
References to early peoples of uncertain ethnic identity
In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.
In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

Undisputed references to Albanians
The first undisputed mention of the ancestors of modern Albanians seems to be in the form of Arbanitai of Arbanon in an account by Anna Comnena of the troubles in that region during the reign of her father Alexius I Comnenus (1081-1118) by the Normans. (The Alexiad, 4)
In History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates referred to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.
1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).

Ethnic origin
The three chief candidates considered by historians are Illyrian, Dacian, or Thracian, though there were other non-Greek groups in the ancient Balkans, including Paionians (who lived north of Macedon) and Agrianians. The Illyrian language and the Thracian language are generally considered to have been on different Indo-European branches. Not much is left of the old Illyrian, Dacian or Thracian tongues, making it difficult to match Albanian with them.

There is debate whether the Illyrian language was a Centum or Satem language. Some evidence suggests that it was centum, but it is not conclusive. It is also uncertain whether Illyrians spoke a homogeneous language or rather a collection of different but related languages that were wrongly considered the same language by ancient writers. The same is sometimes said of the Thracian language. For example, based on the toponyms and other lexical items, Thracian and Dacian were probably different but related languages.

In the early half of the 20th century, many scholars thought that Thracian and Illyrian were one language branch, but due to the lack of evidence, most linguists are skeptical and now reject this idea, and usually place them on different branches. The Messapian language is often included as an Illyrian language, but this is disputed.


Illyrian Origin
There are two variants of the theory: one is that the Albanian language represents a survival of an indigenous Illyrian language spoken in what is now Albania. The other is that the Albanian language is the descendant of an Illyrian language that was spoken north of the Jireček Line and probably north or northeast of Albania.

There is a gap of several centuries between the last historical mention of Illyrians (and the Illyrian tribe Albanoi) and the later mention of Albanians and of the names Albanon and Arbanon to indicate the region. Supporters of either theory say that the term Albanian gradually came to be applied to the surviving Illyrians.

There are some direct correspondences of vocabulary between Albanian and Illyrian [1], but none of these correspondences is conclusive for the purpose of determining whether or not Albanian is an Illyrian language. A few Illyrian lexical items (toponyms, hydronyms, oronyms, anthroponyms, etc.) have been linked to Albanian.


Continuity in Albania south of the Jireček Line

The Jireček Line divides the areas of the Balkans which were under Latin and Greek influence.Many problems for the theory of Albanian continuity in Albania are recognized, and are addressed in various ways as the case may be.

One problem is the lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while several scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, other scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romanic language [2].

The lack [3] or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek into Albanian is another problem (v. Hemp). As the Jireček Line shows, if Albanians were continuously settled throughout Albania since Illyrian times, they would have been, in the south, in more or less constant contact with the Greeks, and the absence or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek is hard to explain within the context of Albanian continuity. Even Greek loans into Illyrian are known (cf. Wilkes, et al.; including Illyrian names borrowed from Greek), so their absence in Albanian as an alleged descendant of Illlyrian as it was spoken in Albania is doubly difficult to explain.

Another problem is the ancient Illyrian and Roman toponyms (including hydronyms, etc.) in what is now Albania compared to their equivalents in the Albanian language. While a number may (most cases are contested among linguists) pose no major or definite problem in terms of linguistic evolution (v. Hemp), many others appear to have entered through one or more intermediary languages, which strongly indicates that the ancestors of Albanians were not in Albania (v. Hemp et al.). For example, Albanian Shkodër from Latin Scodra and Albanian Tomor from Latin Tomarus do not match the Albanian phonological evolution (v. Hemp).

The written historical records pose another problem. The modern Albanians were not mentioned in Byzantine chronicles until 1043, although Illyria was part of the Byzantine Empire. The Illyrians are referred to for the last time as an ethnic group in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD). [4]


Thracian/Dacian origin

Albanians in the 5th-10th centuries according to the Dacian theoryAside from an Illyrian origin, a Dacian or Thracian origin is also hypothesized. There are a number of factors taken as evidence for a Dacian or Thracian origin of Albanians.

Albanian shares several hundred common words with Eastern Romance, these Eastern Romance words being part of the pre-Roman substrate (see: Eastern Romance substratum) and not loans; Albanian and Eastern Romance also share grammatical features (see Balkan language union) and phonological features, such as the common phonemes or the rhotacism of "n". [5]

Linguists such as Vladimir Georgiev have concluded that the phonology of the Dacian language is close to those of Albanian. However, the degree of this closeness has been criticized and challenged by other linguists, and it is based on incomplete evidence. [6]

Names of the cities that follow Albanian phonetic laws (which include Shtip, Shkupi and Niš) are in the areas once inhabited by Thracians, Dardani [7], and Paionians; however, Illyrians also inhabited or may have inhabited these regions, including Naissus. Hemp for example states that Naissus may as well be considered Illyrian territory. [8]

There are some close correspondences between Thracian and Albanian words [9]. However, as with Illyrian, most Dacian and Thracian words and names have not been closely linked with Albanian (v. Hemp). Also, many Dacian and Thracian placenames were made out of joined names (such as Dacian Sucidava or Thracian Bessapara; see List of Dacian cities and List of ancient Thracian cities), while the modern Albanian language does not allow this. [10]

There are no records that indicate a migration of Dacians into present day Albania. However, Thracian tribes such as the Briges were present in Albania near Durres since before the Roman conquest (v. Hemp) [11]. An argument against a Thracian origin (which does not apply to Dacian) is that most Thracian territory was on the Greek half of the Jirecek Line, aside from varied Thracian populations stretching from Thrace into Albania, passing through Paionia and Dardania and up into Moesia; it is considered that most Thracians were Hellenized in Thrace (v. Hoddinott) and Macedonia.

Albanian ancestors were called Arben, a word of the Albanian-Tosk dialect, by changing the n into an r, coined Arber, used as such to this date. The ancient nation called itself Arber or Arban, which meant people who worked the fields. The word was later changed to Alban by the Romans, who called the land Albania, as is it called today by Europeans. The Greeks called Albanians the Arvanit, by changing the letter l into an r and becouse they spell the "B" "V" and from this Greek word the Turks created Arnaut, which they still use today. The word Shqiptar and Shqipëri are Albanian words that come from the blessed bird Albanian ancestors prayed to and they used its face (image) in their flag. The word must not be too old since albanian brethren in the diaspora, Italy, Greece and other places are not aware of the word and still call it Arber,and in Italy Arberesh.

Re: The Albanians


Firstly, welcome to the forum.

Personally I don't have a clear opinion regarding the origin of the Albanians. That's why I mentioned the most possible theories, to hear opinions of other members here. A person who is studied about the issue could enlighten me, and the others interested on the subject.

What history I am "making"? I can't understand you.

I read that 200 Dacian words are similiar to Albanian.

It is possible that refugees from Romania settled in Albania.

...
Hi

It should be noted that the name of the Illyrian tribe that occupied the capital of Illyria Shkodra was "Lappian" it was corrupted to labanija by the south slavs, and later by the Latins as Albania...



The Albanians themselves (in their own language) used the name Arberesh, from the Illyrian tribe Arbanoi as mentioned in the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius, there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.



In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.



In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.



Appearing in the 9th c. in Greek as the Arvanoi (note; in Greek the letter "b" is actually "v"), and thereafter under similar names, including obsolete Albanian arbër or arbën, it had been presumed to stem from Vulgar Latin Albanus, from the southern Illyrian tribal name Albanoí. However, others like Orel attach it instead to a slight corruption of Labëri "Laberia" (Now Southern Province of Albania is Called Laberia), from South Slavic labanĭja, from olbanĭja. The name Tosk, Alb toskë, was borrowed from Venetian tosko "rough, crude", literally "Tuscan". The name Geg probably comes from Illyrian.



In ?'History' written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.



There is a mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110) by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year 1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages....



Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract from the Dusanova Zakonik;



"A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers."



1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).



The great Albanian hero Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg fought and defeated the Ottomans and weakened them to the point where they would later lose their most important war with ambitions for Rome and the Catholic church, the Albanians started using the eagle as all around symbol because it was used before by the Muzaka family, Dukagjini family and Kastrioti family as coat of arms. Skanderbeg used Constantine the Great's (a Illyrian) two headed eagle which was adopted by the Byzantine Empire when Constantine split the Roman Empire into two, Western and Eastern!

Pyrrhus the Great of southern Albania used the eagle as part of his army and coat of arms when he fought and beat the Romans (Pyrrhus Victory). Also the Albanians used the two-headed eagle to symbolize the split of the christian churches into Catholic in the north, and divided by the Shkumbini river also the Via Egnatia Roman Road, also the line where the two Albanian dialects change slightly, the Orthodox in the south...Later after the conversion of many Albanians into islam, the two-headed eagle would be used by some people to symbolize the unification of the two religions (chrisitanity and islam) for one entire nation. It is also important to note the road of Alexander the Great's Empire split the south and north Albanians hence the slight division of the Albanian dialects...



Because of the use of the eagle, the Albanians started calling themselves by a new name "Shqiptar" and an identity based on the "formator" of the new united nation Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg...Shqiptare derives from the Albanian word "Shqiponja" (eagle), and the word "Shqiponja" derrives from the word "shqi" - to tear (that's what a eagle does); and "penja" - feathers (that's what a eagle has)...Shqiponja = Shqiptar!



The first time this word is recorded in the Venetian documents:

"Gli Skipetarë sono un popolo che conserva intatte le tradizioni dei loro antenati, un popolo orgoglioso ed assettato di libertà"



- Pietro Tassini, ambasciatore della Repubblica di Venezia, nel 1455.

TRANSLATION FROM ITALIAN



"The Shqiptars are intact people who conserve the traditions of their ancestors, proud and tidy people of freedom "



- Peter Tassini, ambassador of the Republic of Venice, in 1455



The Greeks use the word Alvanoi for Albanians, but in middle ages they used the word "Arvanite" (Arbanite)...The Turks used the word arnavut which is a corruption of the Greek term for Albanian "Arvanite"!

P.S. The word shqiponja is still used amongst the Arberesh of Italy (Albanians who left to Italy 500 years ago to avoid the Ottoman occupation)
here is a proof of that...video...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g9D7UHFsqNc

and even the word is found in venetian documents during the time of Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg!

Thank you