15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2006 07:11 pm
This is a pretty good summary of the Hezbollah / Israel problem.

http://www.chieftain.com/editorial/1155517725/3
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2006 08:24 pm
That is a very good summary Okie and pretty well parallels what we, at least those on the pro-Israel side of the conflict, have been saying all along. Lest this article be archived, I am going to post the last few paragraphs. That is the heart of it so far as I can see:

__________________________________________________

"Ineffective governments in Lebanon and Palestine have permitted Hezbollah and Hamas respectively to develop powerful, well-organized and well-funded political groups which have, in turn, armed, organized and trained powerful armies. Hamas, which has been conducting terror operations against Israeli civilians over the past several years, now actually runs the government of Palestine, such as it is.

Hezbollah, with several thousand soldiers trained and armed by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards both in Lebanon and in Iran, has essentially ruled the entire southern half of the state of Lebanon for about 25 years now. Although the United Nations Security Council in Resolution 1559 demanded that Hezbollah be disarmed, no action has been taken in that regard by the U.N. or anybody else.

Thousands of Hezbollah soldiers are now dangerously well-equipped, employing drone aircraft, anti-aircraft artillery and rockets, almost 5,000 of which have been fired, willy nilly, at Israeli towns in the past two weeks.

While the world doesn't seem to be particularly concerned that hundreds of Israeli mothers and their children have been killed by bombs blowing up school busses over the past half decade there is now great wailing and gnashing of teeth because Israel has taken the bull by the horns in Lebanon.

They have determined to disarm Hezbollah so that it can no longer menace Israel which will, perhaps, also permit the legitimate government of Lebanon to assume its rightful governance of the entire nation. Here we should note that Hezbollah has also killed 251 U.S. Marines and many American diplomats and citizens over the years. They are our enemy, too!

Lebanese civilians have been killed. Civilians are always victims in war, an unfortunate, unfair, heartbreaking fact of warfare. The evening news reports civilian casualties, but seldom provides the Israeli explanation of why it was necessary to bomb a particular building. Hezbollah assures civilian deaths by massing in residential areas, firing their rockets from apartment house parking lots and, in general, hiding among the public.

Charles Krauthammer notes in a recent column that Israel works hard to avoid civilian casualties -including risking Israeli soldiers' lives in raids where bombs would do just as well - while Hezbollah fires rockets intentionally directed toward causing civilian casualties. Fortunately, the thousands of rockets fired from Lebanon are so erratic that they miss most of the time - an Israeli is in no more danger in a crowded market place than in a grape arbor two miles from town.

Lebanese Shiite boys are killed. Lebanese kids are wounded. Israeli boys and mothers and grandfathers are blown to smithereens. And the Syrians and Iranians, without whose meddling and support none of this would be happening, pay no price!

The impotent U.N. flounders and emotes. The Lebanese army threatens but does nothing. The Lebanese president, who has ignored Hezbollah until now, weeps. The U.S. is blamed by the entire world for the turmoil. And life in Syria and Iran goes on with their crazy leaders and mad mullahs calling for death to all infidels.

And nobody but the Israelis, who live directly under the gun every day of their lives, will do anything about it. We ought to be grateful to them."
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2006 10:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Charles Krauthammer notes in a recent column that Israel works hard to avoid civilian casualties -including risking Israeli soldiers' lives in raids where bombs would do just as well - while Hezbollah fires rockets intentionally directed toward causing civilian casualties.


That's the difference. If Israel were fighting this thing under the same rules the hezbullies use, there would be a million or more Lebanese casualties.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Aug, 2006 11:15 pm
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 05:19 am
Sorry for the length of the article...I tried to cut back but the author's is only too correct of the short-term memories of the West....

Our adversary repeatedly brings up atrocities that occurred 500 years ago....we have forgotten what happened 5 years ago by Al Queda in New York/Pentagon and 23 years ago by Hezbollah in Beirut...if only we had half the memory, determination and backbone...


Victor Davis Hanson wrote:


When I used to read about the 1930s - the Italian invasion of Abyssinia; the rise of fascism in Italy, Spain and Germany; the appeasement in France and Britain; the murderous duplicity of the Soviet Union; and the racist Japanese murdering in China - I never could quite figure out why, during those bleak years, western Europeans and those in the United States did not speak out and condemn the growing madness, if only to defend the millennia-long promise of Western liberalism.

Of course, the trauma of the Great War was all too fresh, and the utopian hopes for the League of Nations were not yet dashed. The Great Depression made the thought of rearmament seem absurd. The connivances of Stalin with Hitler - both satanic, yet sometimes in alliance, sometimes not - could confuse political judgments.

Nevertheless, it is still surreal to reread the fantasies of Chamberlain, Daladier and Pope Pius, or the stump speeches by Charles Lindbergh ("Their [the Jews'] greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government") or Father Coughlin ("Many people are beginning to wonder whom they should fear most - the Roosevelt-Churchill combination or the Hitler-Mussolini combination.") - and baffling to consider that such men ever had any influence.

Not any longer.

Our present generation too is on the brink of moral insanity. That has never been more evident than in the past three weeks, as the West has proved utterly unable to distinguish between an attacked democracy that seeks to strike back at terrorist combatants and terrorist aggressors who seek to kill civilians.

<<<snip>>>>

There is no need to mention Europe, an entire continent now returning to the cowardice of the 1930s. The French foreign minister meets with the Iranians to show solidarity with the terrorists who promise to wipe Israel off the map ("In the region there is of course a country such as Iran - a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region") - and manages to outdo Chamberlain at Munich. One wonders only whether the prime catalyst for such French debasement is worry over oil, terrorists, nukes, unassimilated Arab minorities at home, or the old Gallic Jew-hatred.

<<<snip>>>

But what is lost sight of is the central moral issue of our times: A humane democracy mired in an asymmetrical war is trying to protect itself against terrorists from the 7th century, while under the scrutiny of a corrupt world that needs oil, is largely anti-Semitic and deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists, and finds psychic enjoyment in seeing successful Western societies under duress.

In short, if we wish to learn what was going on in Europe in 1938, just look around.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 05:30 am
Israeli Leaders Fault Bush on War

By Robert Parry
August 13, 2006


Quote:
Amid the political and diplomatic fallout from Israel's faltering invasion of Lebanon, some Israeli officials are privately blaming President George W. Bush for egging Prime Minister Ehud Olmert into the ill-conceived military adventure against the Hezbollah militia in south Lebanon.


http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/081206.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 08:01 am
Lebanon War Question and Answer
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 08:28 am
Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
Quote:
how does one attach any notion of 'facism' to modern Jews or the State of Israel? The Islamic facists fit every point of the definition. I fail to see how the Israelis do.


fox

That is what you said. It is fallacious in several ways which were just carefully layed out for you.

Once again, all that has just happened stems from you being taken to task for making a statement as unthoughtful as that statement is and then not having the integrity to SIMPLY CORRECT WHERE YOU ERRED.

Hopefully too, you'd reflect on why you got it this wrong. But you show the most meager evidence that you can manage either step very often.

None of us should let you get away with stuff like this. You impoverish your own thinking, your own arguments and the general discourse.


Using the Merriam Webster dictionary definition, please explain in YOUR OWN WORDS

1) How are the Israelis facist?
2) How is Hezbollah not facist?

Unless you can answer those two questions you have done nothing but let out a whole lot of hot air in a dedicated criticism of another member. Not what the member says mind you. But the member herself. Take your time. I'll wait. Some of the world's greatest windbags at least give me credit for having a lot of patience.


The question is not how are the Israelis facist since as far as I am aware no one has made that charge; but rather how Hezbollah is not facist in nature according to the meaning in the dictionary you provided.

Quote:
fascism
One entry found for fascism.


Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early>
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized


It is clear that Islam cannot fit the first definition since it goes contrary Islamic beliefs.

Quote:
Fascism is not even a very good description of the ideology of most Muslim fundamentalists. Most fascism in the Middle East has been secular in character, as with Saddam Hussein's Baath Party. Fascism involves extreme nationalism and most often racism. Muslim fundamentalist movements reject the nation-state as their primary loyalty and reject race as a basis for political action or social discrimination. Fascists exalt the state above individual rights or the rule of law. Muslim fundamentalists exalt Islamic law above the utilitarian interests of the state. Fascism exalts youth and a master race above the old and the "inferior" races. Muslim fundamentalists would never speak this way. Fascism glorifies "war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness." Muslim fundamentalists view holy war as a ritual with precise conditions and laws governing its conduct. It is not considered an end in itself.



Some Muslims might fit the second definition in some instances (like a lot of other people or groups) but Hezbollah does not since they have taken part in the democratic elections and have worked with others who do not subscribe to their beliefs.

Quote:
Indeed, Hizbullah has made political alliances with Christian parties, most recently with that of Michel Aoun. Opinion polls have shown that a significant proportion of Lebanese Shiites who voted for Hizbullah are more secular-minded than the party is. Hizbullah has authoritarian tendencies, but has shown itself willing to compromise and act pragmatically within the Lebanese system, and has demonstrated an ability to gain support from voters that do not share its fundamentalist ideology.


The quotes from informed comment link previously provided but

here it is again.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 09:07 am
We are not talking about Islamic beliefs. We are talking about terrorists who happen to be Islamic. There's a huge difference.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 09:31 am
Israel, Defeated
Round one: Lebanon, 1 - Israel, 0 http://antiwar.com/justin/
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:00 am
Silkshock7, Hanson's piece is spot on accurate and, in my opinion, should be posted in its entirety. Thank you for posting it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:05 am
Foxfyre wrote:
We are not talking about Islamic beliefs. We are talking about terrorists who happen to be Islamic. There's a huge difference.


You are hopeless foxfrye. I know there is a huge difference between Islam and Muslims who happen to be terrorist, though I am surprised you would admit to such. I showed how the term 'Islamfacist' does not make sense using your own definition no matter if they are terrorist or not.

I am through with this discussion as I answered your question and I know you will never give any ground no matter how wrong you are.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:07 am
In our little mini-war on semantics here, this one was just too appropriate not to post:

'Fascistic' is the right word for Islamic fundamentalism
By Janet Daley

The anti-war-on-terror lobby has had a bad week. Not that it hasn't kept its end up. Oh no. Faced with a threat so devastating that it seemed more like a world-domination plot from a Superman comic than a hard-headed act of war, there was nothing for it but to fall back on semantics.

George W. Bush was pilloried for referring to "Islamic fascists" by, among others, the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu. Using that kind of language "on the ranch in Texas" did not help, he said, to make society "a good, neighbourly place".

I don't know what the ranch in Texas has to do with anything, but Dr Sentamu seems not to understand the difference between describing Islamic fundamentalists as fascistic, and saying that all Muslims are fascists.

Similar confusion seemed to prevail in much of the broadcast media. I heard one television interviewer ask a Muslim spokesperson if he thought that Mr Bush's "name-calling" had any point.

Name-calling? This makes it sound as if he had said: "Al-Qa'eda are a bunch of big fat poops."

The word "fascism" means an extreme totalitarian system that suppresses human rights and democratic freedoms.

Islamic fundamentalism is fascistic in the precise, technical sense of the word.


The war-on-reality brigade took aim at Tony Blair's "arc of extremism" phrase, too: it was simplistic and misleading to claim that all Muslim terrorists, from the Chechens to Iraqi Sunnis and Kashmiris, were somehow linked in one wicked confederacy.

And yet many of those same sceptical sophisticates who wished to distinguish so carefully between the various Islamic discontents would also claim that the answer to all our problems was to solve the Palestinian problem (and thus withdraw our support for Israel), which is certainly of little relevance to the anger of Kashmiri separatists with whom most British Muslim suspects identify.

Al-Qa'eda began talking about the Palestinian question after 9/11, only when it found itself having to give a plausible public account of its motives.

Until then, it was frank about its actual goal, which is to re-establish the Caliphate over the historic Islamic empire.

So maybe those who wish to conciliate this movement, who believe that it can be negotiated with in some rational way, would like to tell us where they would begin making concessions.

Would they like to explain to the citizens of Turkey that they may have to sacrifice their secular democracy and be ruled again by the theocracy from which they had broken free?

Or perhaps they could persuade the residents of Spain that, since Islam would like to rule the Alhambra once again, they must, in the interests of meeting al-Qa'eda halfway, consider sacrificing this region.

Next, perhaps, would be the recognition of sharia law in Muslim-dominated regions of Britain and France.

No wonder the liberals are in disarray. What we are up against is quite outside the limits of our rational political discourse.

This enemy does not even bother to offer explanations for its actions that fall within the acceptable bounds of Western debate: it is overtly racist, explicitly imperialistic and unapologetically inhumane.

So it is left to the media to make the apologias. First, the home-grown terrorist threat was the fault of racist Britain for denying opportunity and educational advancement to Muslim youth.

Then it turned out that most of those involved in the propagation of terrorism were middle-class and university-educated.

At least two of the suspects arrested in the latest alleged plot are converts to Islam: they cannot be said to have suffered a lifetime of embittering discrimination for their newly embraced faith.

This phenomenon is more reminiscent of Baader-Meinhoff than of the intifada - a fanatical cult of rebellious malcontents who are "alienated" (the word of the moment) by the actions of their government and the mores of their country.

This pernicious nonsense is treated by the BBC as if it were the height of reasonableness.

When a committee of Muslim spokesmen announces that, while it condemns violence etc, it nevertheless finds it somehow understandable that Muslim youth should be so "alienated" by the Government's foreign policy that they become willing recruits to a murderous lunatic sect, their statement is described as a bid for peace rather than a blatant piece of blackmail.

What exactly does it mean, this message of "peace": that you can only be safe if we get the foreign policy we want - otherwise some of us may feel justified in blowing you out of the sky?

That is what most of the broadcast vox pops on the British Muslim street seem to imply. Is this what the majority of the Muslim community really wants said in its name?

I find it hard to believe that the gentle, devoted Muslim families who I know feel this way. But perhaps the BBC believes that it is helping race relations in Britain by pointing a microphone at every young male hothead on the streets of Walthamstow and Birmingham, without bothering to ask who he speaks for, how many people he represents, whether even his parents agree with him.

Or by "balancing" every discussion with an equal number of Muslim moderates and extremists, implying that their numbers within the community are the same.

The trouble with the more benign elements among the Islamic community is that they are peculiarly diffident, especially if they are elderly or female - which makes the media's over-reliance on self-appointed "spokesmen" especially dangerous.

Whose considered judgment is it that the broadcast (unlike the print) media should cringe in the face of extremist Islam?

Where is the famously aggressive examination of Today when it is faced with a rant against America and Britain for "attacking Islam all over the world" (even though Britain and America went to war in Bosnia to defend Muslims)?

In the US, Democratic senator Joseph Lieberman, who supported the Bush foreign policy, has just been thrown out by his party primary - in effect, de-selected - in favour of an anti-war candidate who may be in a better position to exploit voters' disenchantment with events in Iraq.

For what may be similarly opportunistic reasons, the Tory party is backing away from support for Israel, even though Israel is the West's proxy in this global confrontation as much as Hizbollah is Iran's.

This is a critical moment. What we must call the "free world" will either decide that it must unite unequivocally against a force so dark that it is almost incomprehensible to democratic peoples, or else succumb to a daydream of denial that is nothing more than appeasement.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:08 am
blueflame1 wrote:
Israel, Defeated
Round one: Lebanon, 1 - Israel, 0 http://antiwar.com/justin/
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:15 am
Foxfyre wrote:
In our little mini-war on semantics here, this one was just too appropriate not to post:

'Fascistic' is the right word for Islamic fundamentalism
By Janet Daley

The anti-war-on-terror lobby has had a bad week. Not that it hasn't kept its end up. Oh no. Faced with a threat so devastating that it seemed more like a world-domination plot from a Superman comic than a hard-headed act of war, there was nothing for it but to fall back on semantics.

George W. Bush was pilloried for referring to "Islamic fascists" by, among others, the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu. Using that kind of language "on the ranch in Texas" did not help, he said, to make society "a good, neighbourly place".

I don't know what the ranch in Texas has to do with anything, but Dr Sentamu seems not to understand the difference between describing Islamic fundamentalists as fascistic, and saying that all Muslims are fascists.

Similar confusion seemed to prevail in much of the broadcast media. I heard one television interviewer ask a Muslim spokesperson if he thought that Mr Bush's "name-calling" had any point.

Name-calling? This makes it sound as if he had said: "Al-Qa'eda are a bunch of big fat poops."

The word "fascism" means an extreme totalitarian system that suppresses human rights and democratic freedoms.

Islamic fundamentalism is fascistic in the precise, technical sense of the word.


The war-on-reality brigade took aim at Tony Blair's "arc of extremism" phrase, too: it was simplistic and misleading to claim that all Muslim terrorists, from the Chechens to Iraqi Sunnis and Kashmiris, were somehow linked in one wicked confederacy.

And yet many of those same sceptical sophisticates who wished to distinguish so carefully between the various Islamic discontents would also claim that the answer to all our problems was to solve the Palestinian problem (and thus withdraw our support for Israel), which is certainly of little relevance to the anger of Kashmiri separatists with whom most British Muslim suspects identify.

Al-Qa'eda began talking about the Palestinian question after 9/11, only when it found itself having to give a plausible public account of its motives.

Until then, it was frank about its actual goal, which is to re-establish the Caliphate over the historic Islamic empire.

So maybe those who wish to conciliate this movement, who believe that it can be negotiated with in some rational way, would like to tell us where they would begin making concessions.

Would they like to explain to the citizens of Turkey that they may have to sacrifice their secular democracy and be ruled again by the theocracy from which they had broken free?

Or perhaps they could persuade the residents of Spain that, since Islam would like to rule the Alhambra once again, they must, in the interests of meeting al-Qa'eda halfway, consider sacrificing this region.

Next, perhaps, would be the recognition of sharia law in Muslim-dominated regions of Britain and France.

No wonder the liberals are in disarray. What we are up against is quite outside the limits of our rational political discourse.

This enemy does not even bother to offer explanations for its actions that fall within the acceptable bounds of Western debate: it is overtly racist, explicitly imperialistic and unapologetically inhumane.

So it is left to the media to make the apologias. First, the home-grown terrorist threat was the fault of racist Britain for denying opportunity and educational advancement to Muslim youth.

Then it turned out that most of those involved in the propagation of terrorism were middle-class and university-educated.

At least two of the suspects arrested in the latest alleged plot are converts to Islam: they cannot be said to have suffered a lifetime of embittering discrimination for their newly embraced faith.

This phenomenon is more reminiscent of Baader-Meinhoff than of the intifada - a fanatical cult of rebellious malcontents who are "alienated" (the word of the moment) by the actions of their government and the mores of their country.

This pernicious nonsense is treated by the BBC as if it were the height of reasonableness.

When a committee of Muslim spokesmen announces that, while it condemns violence etc, it nevertheless finds it somehow understandable that Muslim youth should be so "alienated" by the Government's foreign policy that they become willing recruits to a murderous lunatic sect, their statement is described as a bid for peace rather than a blatant piece of blackmail.

What exactly does it mean, this message of "peace": that you can only be safe if we get the foreign policy we want - otherwise some of us may feel justified in blowing you out of the sky?

That is what most of the broadcast vox pops on the British Muslim street seem to imply. Is this what the majority of the Muslim community really wants said in its name?

I find it hard to believe that the gentle, devoted Muslim families who I know feel this way. But perhaps the BBC believes that it is helping race relations in Britain by pointing a microphone at every young male hothead on the streets of Walthamstow and Birmingham, without bothering to ask who he speaks for, how many people he represents, whether even his parents agree with him.

Or by "balancing" every discussion with an equal number of Muslim moderates and extremists, implying that their numbers within the community are the same.

The trouble with the more benign elements among the Islamic community is that they are peculiarly diffident, especially if they are elderly or female - which makes the media's over-reliance on self-appointed "spokesmen" especially dangerous.

Whose considered judgment is it that the broadcast (unlike the print) media should cringe in the face of extremist Islam?

Where is the famously aggressive examination of Today when it is faced with a rant against America and Britain for "attacking Islam all over the world" (even though Britain and America went to war in Bosnia to defend Muslims)?

In the US, Democratic senator Joseph Lieberman, who supported the Bush foreign policy, has just been thrown out by his party primary - in effect, de-selected - in favour of an anti-war candidate who may be in a better position to exploit voters' disenchantment with events in Iraq.

For what may be similarly opportunistic reasons, the Tory party is backing away from support for Israel, even though Israel is the West's proxy in this global confrontation as much as Hizbollah is Iran's.

This is a critical moment. What we must call the "free world" will either decide that it must unite unequivocally against a force so dark that it is almost incomprehensible to democratic peoples, or else succumb to a daydream of denial that is nothing more than appeasement.
SOURCE


Oh yea, the anti-war really has had a bad week, Lieberman lost you know and the majority of the public thinks he should just quit; also Islamic fundamentalist does not fit the technical definition of the word as has already been proven to no avail to those who have found a new word to use. The rest of that article is just so much garbage.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2208196#2208196
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 11:18 am
revel wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In our little mini-war on semantics here, this one was just too appropriate not to post:

'Fascistic' is the right word for Islamic fundamentalism
By Janet Daley

The anti-war-on-terror lobby has had a bad week. Not that it hasn't kept its end up. Oh no. Faced with a threat so devastating that it seemed more like a world-domination plot from a Superman comic than a hard-headed act of war, there was nothing for it but to fall back on semantics.

George W. Bush was pilloried for referring to "Islamic fascists" by, among others, the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu. Using that kind of language "on the ranch in Texas" did not help, he said, to make society "a good, neighbourly place".

I don't know what the ranch in Texas has to do with anything, but Dr Sentamu seems not to understand the difference between describing Islamic fundamentalists as fascistic, and saying that all Muslims are fascists.

Similar confusion seemed to prevail in much of the broadcast media. I heard one television interviewer ask a Muslim spokesperson if he thought that Mr Bush's "name-calling" had any point.

Name-calling? This makes it sound as if he had said: "Al-Qa'eda are a bunch of big fat poops."

The word "fascism" means an extreme totalitarian system that suppresses human rights and democratic freedoms.

Islamic fundamentalism is fascistic in the precise, technical sense of the word.


The war-on-reality brigade took aim at Tony Blair's "arc of extremism" phrase, too: it was simplistic and misleading to claim that all Muslim terrorists, from the Chechens to Iraqi Sunnis and Kashmiris, were somehow linked in one wicked confederacy.

And yet many of those same sceptical sophisticates who wished to distinguish so carefully between the various Islamic discontents would also claim that the answer to all our problems was to solve the Palestinian problem (and thus withdraw our support for Israel), which is certainly of little relevance to the anger of Kashmiri separatists with whom most British Muslim suspects identify.

Al-Qa'eda began talking about the Palestinian question after 9/11, only when it found itself having to give a plausible public account of its motives.

Until then, it was frank about its actual goal, which is to re-establish the Caliphate over the historic Islamic empire.

So maybe those who wish to conciliate this movement, who believe that it can be negotiated with in some rational way, would like to tell us where they would begin making concessions.

Would they like to explain to the citizens of Turkey that they may have to sacrifice their secular democracy and be ruled again by the theocracy from which they had broken free?

Or perhaps they could persuade the residents of Spain that, since Islam would like to rule the Alhambra once again, they must, in the interests of meeting al-Qa'eda halfway, consider sacrificing this region.

Next, perhaps, would be the recognition of sharia law in Muslim-dominated regions of Britain and France.

No wonder the liberals are in disarray. What we are up against is quite outside the limits of our rational political discourse.

This enemy does not even bother to offer explanations for its actions that fall within the acceptable bounds of Western debate: it is overtly racist, explicitly imperialistic and unapologetically inhumane.

So it is left to the media to make the apologias. First, the home-grown terrorist threat was the fault of racist Britain for denying opportunity and educational advancement to Muslim youth.

Then it turned out that most of those involved in the propagation of terrorism were middle-class and university-educated.

At least two of the suspects arrested in the latest alleged plot are converts to Islam: they cannot be said to have suffered a lifetime of embittering discrimination for their newly embraced faith.

This phenomenon is more reminiscent of Baader-Meinhoff than of the intifada - a fanatical cult of rebellious malcontents who are "alienated" (the word of the moment) by the actions of their government and the mores of their country.

This pernicious nonsense is treated by the BBC as if it were the height of reasonableness.

When a committee of Muslim spokesmen announces that, while it condemns violence etc, it nevertheless finds it somehow understandable that Muslim youth should be so "alienated" by the Government's foreign policy that they become willing recruits to a murderous lunatic sect, their statement is described as a bid for peace rather than a blatant piece of blackmail.

What exactly does it mean, this message of "peace": that you can only be safe if we get the foreign policy we want - otherwise some of us may feel justified in blowing you out of the sky?

That is what most of the broadcast vox pops on the British Muslim street seem to imply. Is this what the majority of the Muslim community really wants said in its name?

I find it hard to believe that the gentle, devoted Muslim families who I know feel this way. But perhaps the BBC believes that it is helping race relations in Britain by pointing a microphone at every young male hothead on the streets of Walthamstow and Birmingham, without bothering to ask who he speaks for, how many people he represents, whether even his parents agree with him.

Or by "balancing" every discussion with an equal number of Muslim moderates and extremists, implying that their numbers within the community are the same.

The trouble with the more benign elements among the Islamic community is that they are peculiarly diffident, especially if they are elderly or female - which makes the media's over-reliance on self-appointed "spokesmen" especially dangerous.

Whose considered judgment is it that the broadcast (unlike the print) media should cringe in the face of extremist Islam?

Where is the famously aggressive examination of Today when it is faced with a rant against America and Britain for "attacking Islam all over the world" (even though Britain and America went to war in Bosnia to defend Muslims)?

In the US, Democratic senator Joseph Lieberman, who supported the Bush foreign policy, has just been thrown out by his party primary - in effect, de-selected - in favour of an anti-war candidate who may be in a better position to exploit voters' disenchantment with events in Iraq.

For what may be similarly opportunistic reasons, the Tory party is backing away from support for Israel, even though Israel is the West's proxy in this global confrontation as much as Hizbollah is Iran's.

This is a critical moment. What we must call the "free world" will either decide that it must unite unequivocally against a force so dark that it is almost incomprehensible to democratic peoples, or else succumb to a daydream of denial that is nothing more than appeasement.
SOURCE


Oh yea, the anti-war really has had a bad week, Lieberman lost you know and the majority of the public thinks he should just quit; also Islamic fundamentalist does not fit the technical definition of the word as has already been proven to no avail to those who have found a new word to use. The rest of that article is just so much garbage.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2208196#2208196


I thought you were through with this discussion because I'm hopeless. Can't depend on you liberals for anything. Smile

But sorry, but you have NOT proved that Islamic fundamentalism does not fit the technical definition of the word. We have spelled out clearly why it does. Why don't you, in your own words, say why it does not? No need for a long drawn out thing.

Just answer the questions:
1) How are Islamic terrorists not fascistic?
2) How is Israel fascistic?
3) How is the Merriam Webster dictionary definition wrong?

This would not of course preclude you adding any other comments to the debate that you believe to be pertinent.

I would appreciate hearing your own personal opinion on these things in your own words.

(Hint: There is one component of Fascism as it is normally defined that would help at least in part to support your side of the argument if you're paying attention.)
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 12:29 pm
Foxfyre:

I am sure that Revel might be a high school drop out. Those people do not understand English. Your definition fits precisely.

AN EXTREME TOTALITARIAN SYSTEM THAT SUPPRESSES HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS---

If revel is suffering under the INCREDIBLE delusion that women are treated equally by the Medieval ISLAMIC FRINGE that whipped women in the streets in Kabul; forced them to wear Burkas; condemned any kind of contact with Western Culture as Satanic, she is completely disconnected from reality!!!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 12:33 pm
BernardR wrote:
Foxfyre:

I am sure that Revel might be a high school drop out. Those people do not understand English. Your definition fits precisely.

AN EXTREME TOTALITARIAN SYSTEM THAT SUPPRESSES HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS---

If revel is suffering under the INCREDIBLE delusion that women are treated equally by the Medieval ISLAMIC FRINGE that whipped women in the streets in Kabul; forced them to wear Burkas; condemned any kind of contact with Western Culture as Satanic, she is completely disconnected from reality!!!


I would prefer not to cast personal insults at anybody here Bernard and, though I appreciate your support, I strongly object to your post here. It is unncessarily insulting and what degree of education Revel has or has not had is entirely irrelevent to any opinions she might have on this subject.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 12:34 pm
Regarding the "Victory" claimed by the savages in Hezbollah.

I am sure that Gungasnake has viewed film showing a fighter who has been severly whipped saying-- I moidered the bum. The fighter who said that usually had a big black eye( large amounts of the Lebanese infrastructure destroyed); a partly dislocated jaw( nearly 1,000 Hezbollah and Lebanese killed) and welts all over his face( many Hezbollah headquarters leveled to the ground).

Sure- He moidered the bum---and now we will see if the guy who moidered the bum will even be able to lift one finger( Missles) against the real winner!!!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2006 12:44 pm
once again possum is full of **** and makes posts that are, at best, obnoxious. One can only conclude that Possum is a 3rd grade dropout from a inner-city trade school specializing in sewer system maintaince.
0 Replies
 
 

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