ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Advocate, "Blue, when you provide a link, please give your take on it." I'm always happy to give my take but dont feel that's necassary with every article a poster may post. Here are a couple I've already given my take on. Hamas moderation since their election seems to be in dispute. Truth is before the squashing of the press conference I've mentioned Hamas had maintained a self imposed cease fire for 16 months. It was only after the slaughter of the Palestinian family on the beach in Gaza that rockets were fired on Israel. And that not by the elected Hamas government but by a rogue element. "Hamas Fires Rockets Into Israel, Ending 16-Month Truce"

CORRECTION APPENDED

DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1426 WORDS -Hamas fired at least 15 Qassam rockets from Gaza into Israel on Saturday, ending a tattered 16-month truce with Israel, a day after eight Palestinians were killed on a Gaza beach, apparently by an errant Israeli shell. Later on Saturday, in Ramallah, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, announced he...

Correction: June 20, 2006, Tuesday An article on June 11 about the end of a Hamas cease-fire with Israel referred incorrectly to the money that Israel is withholding from the Palestinians. The money, about $50 million, is made up of taxes and duties that Israel collects for the Palestinians; it is not financial aid. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0614F639550C728DDDAF0894DE404482
Since then Hamas has made other offers refused by Israel. "Israel rejects Hamas offer of cease-fire and steps up hostilities in Gaza"
By Chris Marsden
11 July 2006

There can be no clearer demonstration of Israel's aggressive stance than its immediate dismissal of a proposed cease-fire by Hamas.

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh offered a cease-fire early on Saturday, July 8. The proposal went far beyond a temporary halt to fighting in Gaza. On offer was a permanent cease-fire that had the backing of Khaled Meshal, the political leader of Hamas who is exiled in Damascus. He has been portrayed as a militant opponent of the recognition of Israel.

Hamas sources told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz that Meshal supports an agreement for the release of the 19-year-old Israel Defence Forces (IDF) Corporal Gilad Shalit, whose capture by the military wing of Hamas provided Israel with a casus belli for its two-week assault on Gaza, in return for the release of some Palestinian prisoners.

The agreement would include an Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and an end to targeted killings, in return for a long-term cease-fire, or hudna, on the part of the Palestinians that would include an end to Qassam rocket attacks.

The deputy of the Hamas political office, Musa Abu Marzuk, later told the London-based Arab-language Al-Hayat that Israel need only recognize the principle of prisoner exchange before negotiations could begin on the number of Palestinian prisoners to be freed. The newspaper stressed that Hamas would accept the release of just 100 female prisoners and 30 men who have already served long sentences.

Senior Hamas members told Haaretz that the entire organisation now supports a hudna. They complained that there was no one on the Israeli side willing to hear the clear messages sent by their mediators and that all their offers have been turned down.

Within hours of the proposal being made, Israel made clear that it would not consider any cessation of hostilities. Instead, it continued to mount attacks throughout Gaza, including one that claimed three civilian lives.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:owD2EYyGk1sJ:www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/gaza-j11.shtml+hamas+11+month+ceasefire&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&ie=UTF-8

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Foxfyre wrote:

gungasnake wrote:
You got it. This thing will be over when Hezbollah is thoroughly crushed.

For Hezbollah to be thoroughly crushed is probably everybody's very best hope for peace.

In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness towards Hezbollah.

The General said, "I believe that forgiving Hezbollah is God's function. The Israelis' job is to arrange the meeting."

:wink:

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FreeDuck, "Can anyone tell me, in all those 90 and 95 percent offers that were so generously offered to the palestinians, were they given water?" This is a serious question that gets to the heart of how badly mistreated the Palestinians are. I've posted this before but in answer to your question will repost. It aint an issue people seem to want to discuss. I guess it's easier to say "they" hate us because they hate freedom and democracy. Never admit that there are legit reasons why we are hated. "From New Orleans to Gaza
Squeezing the Last Drops from Palestine"
By RICHARD HARTH
http://www.counterpunch.org/harth07272006.html

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SierraSong wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
You got it. This thing will be over when Hezbollah is thoroughly crushed.

For Hezbollah to be thoroughly crushed is probably everybody's very best hope for peace.

In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness towards Hezbollah.

The General said, "I believe that forgiving Hezbollah is God's function. The Israelis' job is to arrange the meeting."

:wink:

Very funny.

Rolling Eyes

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Israel didn't "slaughter" people on a Gaza beach. It was an errant shell. Israel was shelling in response to hundreds of rockets fired into Israel, as well as suicide bombings.

How can Israel cooperate with a neighboring state whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel, and who continues to harm Isreal and its people. I guess Blue has little problem with the kidnapping and murder by stoning of a Jewish child.

Hamas has made some phony statements about an agreement, but its terms include a poison pill, as I explained before.

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Advocate wrote:

Here is what might happen if Hezbollah wins. Lebanon will be destroyed, among other bad things.

http://www.slate.com/id/2147260/?nav=tap3

You know what might be a clever thing instead of destabilizing the whole region, destroying Lebanese civilian infrastructure, killing hundreds of civilians and creating more than a million refugees?

Helping the democratically elected government of Lebanon fight Hezbollah. Training the Lebanese police, so you get a police force that is actually up to the task. That's what we're being told will be the road to success in Iraq. So how could it be the wrong thing to do in Lebanon?

And, after all, Lebanon isn't the dictatorship Saddam's Iraq was. Wasn't Lebanon lauded as the prototype democracy just a year ago, during the "Cedar Revolution"? Didn't we hear claims about how the "dominos were falling" all over the Middle East?

And now, less than a year later it's suddenly "Well, destroy as much of Lebanon as possible. That will teach them a lesson."

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Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

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Advocate wrote:

Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

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old europe wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Clue>Not Siniora, Aoun or any other Syrian puppet in the Lebanese gov't...oh and don't forget Hez.

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old europe wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Dumb conservatives. They think they can institute any policy through the barrel of a gun. They're failing in Afghanistan and Iraq. You wonder how many people have to die before they understand there are other ways besides brute force.

The greatest teachers the conservatives have are the terrorist themselves. They want to be just like them. Whatever the terrorist do it gives them the excuse to behave just like them.

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Brand X wrote:

old europe wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Clue>Not Siniora, Aoun or any other Syrian puppet in the Lebanese gov't...oh and don't forget Hez.

However, Aoun at least tried to reach disarmement of Hezbollah. And don't forget that Lebanon parliament is dominated by an anti-Syrian coalition.

Oversimplifying the case and calling all who oppose Israel's methods "Syrian puppets" or "pro-Hezbollah" doesn't really help when your goal is stability in the region.

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old europe wrote:

Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Clue>Not Siniora, Aoun or any other Syrian puppet in the Lebanese gov't...oh and don't forget Hez.

However, Aoun at least tried to reach disarmement of Hezbollah. And don't forget that Lebanon parliament is dominated by an anti-Syrian coalition.

Oversimplifying the case and calling all who oppose Israel's methods "Syrian puppets" or "pro-Hezbollah" doesn't really help when your goal is stability in the region.

Your opinion however is 180 degrees out of phase with many Lebanese. They would say you are oversimplifying.

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Advocate, you brush aside Hamas offers to negotiate but many intelligent and prominent players in the ME do not. You seem to ignore the 16 month Hamas cease fire completely. I wonder if you read the article "From New Orleans to Gaza
Squeezing the Last Drops from Palestine" I posted. The story of what Israel has done with water is well researched and well written. The author is a friend, Jewish and a human rights advocate. There are many Jews who feel the shame he feels over Israel's inhumane apartheit policies towards Palestinians. His article is painful reading. To dismiss the legit complaints of Palestinians is to endorse continuous war and gives a big thumbs up to Israeli injustice. There are very many well qualified and talented people seeking peace and those who would shuffle them aside have questionable motives. Olmert has shown he has no desire for negotions. In speeches he's made clear his intentions to establish Israel's borders unilateraly and what's anyone going to do about it. The wall Israel is building is an act of war. It seizes territory. It shuts Palestine off from water and even freedom to travel within it's own territory. No nation would accept such a condition. As individuals even on this forum I doubt there are many who would not fight those who treated them as the Israelis treat the Palestinians.

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Brand X wrote:

Your opinion however is 180 degrees out of phase with many Lebanese. They would say you are oversimplifying.

You've been there recently?

(I haven't, before you ask me. Thus, I only know what people who have or live there write/told me.)

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Brand X wrote:

old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Clue>Not Siniora, Aoun or any other Syrian puppet in the Lebanese gov't...oh and don't forget Hez.

However, Aoun at least tried to reach disarmement of Hezbollah. And don't forget that Lebanon parliament is dominated by an anti-Syrian coalition.

Oversimplifying the case and calling all who oppose Israel's methods "Syrian puppets" or "pro-Hezbollah" doesn't really help when your goal is stability in the region.

Your opinion however is 180 degrees out of phase with many Lebanese. They would say you are oversimplifying.

I see that you didn't counter that argument, Brand X. You say that "many Lebanese" would say I'm oversimplifying. That's called an "argument from authority" (or argumentum ad verecundiam).

Anyways, if you want to make a point you could maybe explain how I'm oversimplifying by what I've said, eh?

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old europe wrote:

Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Lebanon will be taught that it can't harbor and support terrorists and expect to be exempt from retaliatory attacks.

Right. That will teach them a lesson! Who cares about a few hundred dead civilians, right?

Clue>Not Siniora, Aoun or any other Syrian puppet in the Lebanese gov't...oh and don't forget Hez.

However, Aoun at least tried to reach disarmement of Hezbollah. And don't forget that Lebanon parliament is dominated by an anti-Syrian coalition.

Oversimplifying the case and calling all who oppose Israel's methods "Syrian puppets" or "pro-Hezbollah" doesn't really help when your goal is stability in the region.

Your opinion however is 180 degrees out of phase with many Lebanese. They would say you are oversimplifying.

I see that you didn't counter that argument, Brand X. You say that "many Lebanese" would say I'm oversimplifying. That's called an "argument from authority" (or argumentum ad verecundiam).

Anyways, if you want to make a point you could maybe explain how I'm oversimplifying by what I've said, eh?

I don't presume to speak for Lebanese but I have been reading a lot of their thoughts and opinions about their leaders.

My main point was you seemed to defend Aoun, and there are Aounists in Lebanon no doubt but they are not in large anti Hez who don't mind seeing civilians die. Any attempt by Aoun to disarm hez is not taken seriously by most accounts I have read.

You have Fatfat in interviews busy claiming that the whole problem was about transferring control of the Shebaa Farms (on behalf of Syria) as a pre-cursor to peace with Israel and the 3 Lebanese citizens (Samir Kuntar included) in Jail. No mention of controlling Hez. When asked if the Leb Army could disarm Hez if given control of the South he dodged the question and blaimed it on the international community.

They believe in great part thanks to the orange King Aoun the Syrians entered Free Lebanon fully confident that they'll stay here for ever.

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Brand X wrote:

My main point was you seemed to defend Aoun, and there are Aounists in Lebanon no doubt but they are not in large anti Hez who don't mind seeing civilians die. Any attempt by Aoun to disarm hez is not taken seriously by most accounts I have read.

Far from it. I think Aoun can be relied upon to be strictly pro-Hezbollah, not the contrary. Nevertheless, that might be helpful rather than contraproductive to the attempt of disarming Hezbollah via an agreement rather than by force.

It's maybe a pity that the attempt of doing so (Hezbollah actually signed an agreement with Aoun) were completely dismissed by the government in Beirut (which, in turn, is anti-Syrian, but didn't make an effort of dealing with Hezbollah).

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blueflame1 wrote:

Advocate, I most certainly do believe Hamas is still interested in a 2 state solution. I dont believe for a minute that the leaders of Israel do want that at all. I do believe most Israelis strongly desire a 2 state solution.
...
Yes, Hamas and Hezbollah want the same 2 state solution: Palestine and Lebanon absent Israel. How do I know that? They repeatedly say so! So I believe 'em!
...
Israel had a divine right to the land, and to give it away was an act of treason against Israel and an abomination against God." Absolute insanity.That comment of yours is pseudology. You are that pseudology's confused victim. It is the Palestinian arabs who think they have a devine right to Palestine because their prophet Muhammad, who delivered Palestine to them in the 7th Century (before they lost it in the 11th century), said so.

All Israel wants is to live and let live. Tell Hamas and Hezbollah that if they stop trying to destroy Israel, Israel will stop trying to destroy them.

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ican711nm wrote:

Israel is fighting its enemies for its survival!
Hezbollah is Israel's enemy!
Lebanon is Hezbollah's ally!
Syria is Hezbollah's ally!
Iran is Hezbollah's ally!
Allies of your enemy are also your enemy!

A Rational Peace Process:
(1) Hezbollah stops shooting rockets at Israel;
(2) Hezbollah returns its captured Israelies;
(3) Hezbollah leaves Lebanon;
(4) Israel leaves Lebanon.

Another Rational Peace Process:
(1) Israel destroys Hezbollah;
(2) Israel leaves Lebanon.

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Failure to recognize the current Israel/Hezbollah/Hamas/Lebanon dustup for what it is - a proxy war waged by Iran, and Iran's puppet Syria, against The West, simply one more component of, one more battle in, the overall War on Terrorism - requires a special sort of blindness; the very same blindness at root responsible for the generation-long rise and escalation of Islamofascist terrorism. Regardless the disingenuous, denialist dismay from The Left, the end of the conlict is yet far away, the worst is yet to come, and denial inevitably will become unviable. WWW III began in 1979, though The West barely has begun to mount its counter-offensive.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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