15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 05:29 am
Quote:
Exploiting the Reuters incident

It is indisputably wrong for a media outlet to alter photographs or other information so as to falsely represent what is being reported. That is beyond dispute. Yet for three straight days now (and still going strong), the right-wing blogosphere has been wallowing in a self-celebratory swarm because two photographs taken in Lebanon and published by Reuters were found to have been altered using Photoshop by the freelance photographer who submitted them. Rush Limbaugh has now joined the party, decreeing that "Reuters ought to be investigated." (The frequency with which Bush supporters call for media organizations to be investigated because of what they report is itself notable.)

Given the intensity and duration of the blogospheric mob scene fueled by the Reuters discovery, one would think that this event demonstrates some sort of important point beyond the particular photographer's poor judgment or deliberate deceit. But it is difficult to see what the point might be, to put it mildly.

The alterations made to the original Beirut photograph appear to have increased the amount of smoke one sees in the photo, taken after a Beirut bombing raid, but the amount of smoke in the original unaltered photograph is itself quite substantial. Israel really is bombing Lebanon; buildings really are being destroyed; many Lebanese civilians really are dying; and nobody who is serious disputes any of that.

These excited bloggers seem to be using the Reuters incident to try to "prove" that the dreaded "mainstream media" -- and Reuters has long been a special target for many extremists on the right (who sometimes refer to it as "al-Reuters") -- is hopelessly biased against Israel and in favor of Islamic terrorists, including Hezbollah, and that nothing the MSM reports about this war, or anything else for that matter, can be trusted. Many of these bloggers appear to hope that this incident will call into question the reliability of all reporting on the war outside of YTNews and Fox, including what happened in Qana, Lebanon, and any reports that reflect negatively on the Israeli war effort.

But Reuters hardly has a monopoly on scandals of this sort. Quite the contrary, examples of photographic alterations and political distortions of evidence are abundant. The blogger TBogg today documents two instances of photographic manipulation -- one from the Bush-Cheney '04 campaign, which cloned members of the military in the audience while the president was speaking, and another that used Photoshop to falsely depict John Kerry at an antiwar rally next to Jane Fonda.

And then there was the complete misquoting by Fox News' Carl Cameron of John Kerry at the height of the 2004 campaign:

"Move over Dan Rather, Fox News' Carl Cameron is joining you in the hoaxer hall of shame. Fox News' Web site posted a story written by its top political reporter yesterday with made-up quotes that painted Democratic presidential contender John Kerry as a spa-going girly-man."

Ironically, one of the anti-Reuters lynch mob leaders, Little Green Footballs, defended Fox's publication of false Kerry quotes by arguing that Fox "pulled the article down and apologized for it the same day. That is, of course, how a responsible news organization handles a situation like this" (emphasis added). That, of course, is precisely what Reuters did with the altered photographs. In fact, the agency went much further by removing all of the photographs and announcing it will never use that photographer again. Fox, by contrast, refused to remove Cameron from covering the Kerry campaign and continues to employ him. Worse, Fox excused itself by claiming that publication of the fake quotes "occurred because of fatigue and bad judgment, not malice."

And then there is the still-unsolved mystery of the identity of the pro-Iraq war advocates who created forged documents purporting to prove that Iraq sought 500 tons of uranium oxide ("yellow cake") from Niger -- complete fiction that made its way into Senate and presidential briefings, and then into the president's State of the Union address, helping to sell the invasion of Iraq.

By all means, misleading photographs and other fabrications should be documented and exposed. But such scandals typically reflect little about anything beyond the culpable individuals involved.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 05:56 am
Limbaugh on recent media manipulation:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080706/content/america_s_anchorman.guest.html

The thing which is frightening about Americna media manipulation is that ten years ago, they were simply getting away with it.

Ten years ago, nobody had a way to check on things like the "Bosnian Serb Death Camp" at Trnopolje. Ten years ago, Dan Rather would simply have skated with his bullshit "fake but accurate" attack piece and, very likely, John the ****ing gigolo Kerry would simply be president of the United States, and would be sitting there in the oval office in his tutu with his truffle pig on a leash.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080706/content/america_s_anchorman.Par.0002.ImageFile.jpg

Dan (I-Am-Not-A-Bum) Rather.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:08 am
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Exploiting the Reuters incident

It is indisputably wrong for a media outlet to alter photographs or other information so as to falsely represent what is being reported. That is beyond dispute. Yet for three straight days now (and still going strong), the right-wing blogosphere has been wallowing in a self-celebratory swarm because two photographs taken in Lebanon and published by Reuters were found to have been altered using Photoshop by the freelance photographer who submitted them. Rush Limbaugh has now joined the party, decreeing that "Reuters ought to be investigated." (The frequency with which Bush supporters call for media organizations to be investigated because of what they report is itself notable.)

Given the intensity and duration of the blogospheric mob scene fueled by the Reuters discovery, one would think that this event demonstrates some sort of important point beyond the particular photographer's poor judgment or deliberate deceit. But it is difficult to see what the point might be, to put it mildly.

The alterations made to the original Beirut photograph appear to have increased the amount of smoke one sees in the photo, taken after a Beirut bombing raid, but the amount of smoke in the original unaltered photograph is itself quite substantial. Israel really is bombing Lebanon; buildings really are being destroyed; many Lebanese civilians really are dying; and nobody who is serious disputes any of that.

These excited bloggers seem to be using the Reuters incident to try to "prove" that the dreaded "mainstream media" -- and Reuters has long been a special target for many extremists on the right (who sometimes refer to it as "al-Reuters") -- is hopelessly biased against Israel and in favor of Islamic terrorists, including Hezbollah, and that nothing the MSM reports about this war, or anything else for that matter, can be trusted. Many of these bloggers appear to hope that this incident will call into question the reliability of all reporting on the war outside of YTNews and Fox, including what happened in Qana, Lebanon, and any reports that reflect negatively on the Israeli war effort.

But Reuters hardly has a monopoly on scandals of this sort. Quite the contrary, examples of photographic alterations and political distortions of evidence are abundant. The blogger TBogg today documents two instances of photographic manipulation -- one from the Bush-Cheney '04 campaign, which cloned members of the military in the audience while the president was speaking, and another that used Photoshop to falsely depict John Kerry at an antiwar rally next to Jane Fonda.

And then there was the complete misquoting by Fox News' Carl Cameron of John Kerry at the height of the 2004 campaign:

"Move over Dan Rather, Fox News' Carl Cameron is joining you in the hoaxer hall of shame. Fox News' Web site posted a story written by its top political reporter yesterday with made-up quotes that painted Democratic presidential contender John Kerry as a spa-going girly-man."

Ironically, one of the anti-Reuters lynch mob leaders, Little Green Footballs, defended Fox's publication of false Kerry quotes by arguing that Fox "pulled the article down and apologized for it the same day. That is, of course, how a responsible news organization handles a situation like this" (emphasis added). That, of course, is precisely what Reuters did with the altered photographs. In fact, the agency went much further by removing all of the photographs and announcing it will never use that photographer again. Fox, by contrast, refused to remove Cameron from covering the Kerry campaign and continues to employ him. Worse, Fox excused itself by claiming that publication of the fake quotes "occurred because of fatigue and bad judgment, not malice."

And then there is the still-unsolved mystery of the identity of the pro-Iraq war advocates who created forged documents purporting to prove that Iraq sought 500 tons of uranium oxide ("yellow cake") from Niger -- complete fiction that made its way into Senate and presidential briefings, and then into the president's State of the Union address, helping to sell the invasion of Iraq.

By all means, misleading photographs and other fabrications should be documented and exposed. But such scandals typically reflect little about anything beyond the culpable individuals involved.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/


Good post and to the point, blatham.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:22 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
SierraSong wrote:
I believe nothing coming out of Lebanon. Hezbollah uses staging tactics and manipulates what reporters are allowed to divulge.


You mean those live videos on tv are fake as well?


If Hezbollah dictated what could and could not be videographed, they very well could be something quite different than the accurate story.


How do you know that Hezbollah has the power to control all the journalists in Lebanon? I've said before that I believe that both sides are trying to use the media. But if you are so concerned about the news coming out of Lebanon, why not look at the situation in Israel?

Quote:
Israel - Annual report 2006

The Israeli media were once again in 2005 the only ones in the region that had genuine freedom to speak out. But the government did not allow such freedom in the Palestinian territories it occupies. Israeli soldiers discriminated against Arab journalists and abuses against them, whether they worked for local media or pan-Arab TV stations such as Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, increased during the year. The Israeli army hounded, threatened, summoned and arrested them, sometimes without subsequent trial.
Awad Rajoub, a Palestinian journalist with Al-Jazeera's website, was arrested on 30 November and was still being held at the start of 2006. The army said his arrest at home in Doura had nothing to do with him being a journalist. A dozen journalists, nearly all Israeli Arabs, were summoned and interrogated about their work and political views by the Israeli intelligence service, Shabak, which suspected them of having links with the Lebanese Hezbollah movement.
Nabil al-Mazzawi, an Al-Jazeera cameraman on the West Bank, was beaten on 4 November by Israeli soldiers and held for several hours after he filmed a demonstration against the wall separating Israel and the Occupied Territories. Majdi al-Arabid, cameraman for the Israeli TV stations Channel 10, was wounded in the stomach and the leg by gunfire as he filmed Israeli troops entering Beit Hanoun, north of Gaza.
French journalist Houda Ibrahim, of the radio station RMC Moyen-Orient, who had been sent by the French government to train Palestinian journalists, was refused entry to the West Bank from Jordan on 3 July.


from the Reporters without Borders website

That's of course limited to the situation within Israel, and doesn't mention the censorship the Israeli military imposed on any reporting about the current conflict.


I, as you, only know from what I can put together from the available information, OE. Niether of us are there. When Reuters admits that it used manipulated photos, there is no reason to disbelieve them. That's not something that is advantageous for them. Did Reuters do it as a matter of intentional policy? There is no evidence that they did, but we have to realize that it happens. Now that it is exposed that many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged, we have to realize that it happens.

And there is no reason to think that Reuters or any other media source would have volunteered to admit this information if it had not been exposed by sharp eyed bloggers on the internet.

And there is no reason to disbelieve the reporters who say they are not allowed to go into certain places in Lebanon or explain how they are getting their information.

We are not seeing similar reports of manipulated photos and/or staged massacre scenes coming out of Israel. But, again and again I heard/read reporters on the Israel side reporting a story but saying they cannot name a particular location, etc. This is to prevent telegraphing useful information to Hezbollah. I 100% support that kind of military censorship and think the USA would be well advised to reinstate it as we did during a time when we were still winning wars. I do not blame Hezbollah for controlling the media either. I do blame reporters and/lor news organizations who manipulate photos or eagerly report staged events as the real deal.

CNN to its credit, no doubt bowing to public perception, is doing a better job of showing Israel's side this week. We can hope that trend continues as the media reporting thus far has been terribly lopsided to show Lebanon's misery while ignoring Israel's.

As for those who are damning Israel and throwing all their sympathy to Lebanon, I just think they're nuts.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:39 am
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
SierraSong wrote:
I believe nothing coming out of Lebanon. Hezbollah uses staging tactics and manipulates what reporters are allowed to divulge.


You mean those live videos on tv are fake as well?


If Hezbollah dictated what could and could not be videographed, they very well could be something quite different than the accurate story.


How do you know that Hezbollah has the power to control all the journalists in Lebanon? I've said before that I believe that both sides are trying to use the media. But if you are so concerned about the news coming out of Lebanon, why not look at the situation in Israel?

Quote:
Israel - Annual report 2006

The Israeli media were once again in 2005 the only ones in the region that had genuine freedom to speak out. But the government did not allow such freedom in the Palestinian territories it occupies. Israeli soldiers discriminated against Arab journalists and abuses against them, whether they worked for local media or pan-Arab TV stations such as Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, increased during the year. The Israeli army hounded, threatened, summoned and arrested them, sometimes without subsequent trial.
Awad Rajoub, a Palestinian journalist with Al-Jazeera's website, was arrested on 30 November and was still being held at the start of 2006. The army said his arrest at home in Doura had nothing to do with him being a journalist. A dozen journalists, nearly all Israeli Arabs, were summoned and interrogated about their work and political views by the Israeli intelligence service, Shabak, which suspected them of having links with the Lebanese Hezbollah movement.
Nabil al-Mazzawi, an Al-Jazeera cameraman on the West Bank, was beaten on 4 November by Israeli soldiers and held for several hours after he filmed a demonstration against the wall separating Israel and the Occupied Territories. Majdi al-Arabid, cameraman for the Israeli TV stations Channel 10, was wounded in the stomach and the leg by gunfire as he filmed Israeli troops entering Beit Hanoun, north of Gaza.
French journalist Houda Ibrahim, of the radio station RMC Moyen-Orient, who had been sent by the French government to train Palestinian journalists, was refused entry to the West Bank from Jordan on 3 July.


from the Reporters without Borders website

That's of course limited to the situation within Israel, and doesn't mention the censorship the Israeli military imposed on any reporting about the current conflict.


I, as you, only know from what I can put together from the available information, OE. Niether of us are there. When Reuters admits that it used manipulated photos, there is no reason to disbelieve them. That's not something that is advantageous for them. Did Reuters do it as a matter of intentional policy? There is no evidence that they did, but we have to realize that it happens. Now that it is exposed that many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged, we have to realize that it happens.

And there is no reason to think that Reuters or any other media source would have volunteered to admit this information if it had not been exposed by sharp eyed bloggers on the internet.

And there is no reason to disbelieve the reporters who say they are not allowed to go into certain places in Lebanon or explain how they are getting their information.

We are not seeing similar reports of manipulated photos and/or staged massacre scenes coming out of Israel. But, again and again I heard/read reporters on the Israel side reporting a story but saying they cannot name a particular location, etc. This is to prevent telegraphing useful information to Hezbollah. I 100% support that kind of military censorship and think the USA would be well advised to reinstate it as we did during a time when we were still winning wars. I do not blame Hezbollah for controlling the media either. I do blame reporters and/lor news organizations who manipulate photos or eagerly report staged events as the real deal.

CNN to its credit, no doubt bowing to public perception, is doing a better job of showing Israel's side this week. We can hope that trend continues as the media reporting thus far has been terribly lopsided to show Lebanon's misery while ignoring Israel's.

As for those who are damning Israel and throwing all their sympathy to Lebanon, I just think they're nuts.


I for one am loosing little sleep over you thinking anyone is nuts considering the source and the fact that you only see Israel suffering and side. Pot calling the kettle and all that.

The article which Blatham posted still stands and is exactly right concerning this one photographer and the right wing gleefully grabbing hold to in order to imply that most of the pro Lebanon stories and pictures are the same.

CNN and other of those cable networks have always been pro Israel, in fact most of the American media and Americans as a whole are and always been. This is why I don't get my news about this latest Middle East crisis from any of those sources.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:44 am
Well I understand why each side thinks that manipulating the media is desirable. And Israel does it through censorship. Yes, that's manipulation, too: no pictures of Israeli jets firing rockets on Beirut, no pictures of Israeli soldiers targeting civilian neighborhoods, no pictures of bodies. As far as the material that passes through the Israeli censorship has it, this is a clean war, where only Hezbollah posts firing rockets at Israel are being targeted.

Understandable, maybe, but probably not representing what is actually happening in Lebanon.

Btw, you are saying that "many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged". Not sure what you mean by "many". I've read about one. Am I mistaken? And, because you've stated before that you believe Hezbollah has the capability of controlling everything that's coming out of Lebanon: why do you think this is the case? Do you have any sources, or is it just your opinion?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:49 am
Quote:
Tuesday, August 08, 2006

Bush, Islamic Fascism and the Christians of Jounieh

Bush is on vacation, his favorite place to be during a major crisis. The August retreat is the only open admission he makes that Cheney and Rumsfeld are actually running the country, and he just doesn't need to be in his office. The only difference between his stonewalling of Lebanon and the way he let New Orleans drown is that he has put away the banjo this summer, at least in public view. He had someone tie a necktie on him and stopped manically clearing brush for long enough to come out with Condi and hold a press conference. He lied, saying that no one wants to see the violence continue. He wants to see the violence continue. Otherwise he would insist on a ceasefire. You see, if you don't have a ceasefire, the violence continues. If you oppose a ceasefire, you are saying you want the violence to continue. He does.

Then he tried to explain the war in Lebanon by saying this,

'They try to spread their jihadist message -- a message I call, it's totalitarian in nature -- Islamic radicalism, Islamic fascism, they try to spread it as well by taking the attack to those of us who love freedom. '


There are many problems with this passage.

The first is that the Israelis are not confining themselves to bombing Muslim radicals. They dropped 3000 bombs on Aitaroun in a single day. They are leveling the towns of the south altogether. They are hitting people who are not Muslim fascists.

In fact, they are hitting Christian areas such as Jounieh.

Not only have the Israelis bombed out the bridges at Jounieh, destroying the local economy and harming the Christians there, but their air raid on the Jiyye oil refinery has caused an enormous ecological disaster and the ruining of the beach resorts along the coast. So much for Jounieh and its "Islamic fascists."


The Israelis have also bombed Ashrafiyah, a Christian area of Beirut. They have ruined Christian businesses-- restaurants, nightclubs, retail shops, by destroying bridges, roads and ports and by killing tourism for years to come.

The Syrians, about whom the Bush administration complained so bitterly for their role in Lebanon, had actually protected the Lebanese Christians from the PLO back in the 1970s and never did to them a hundredth of the damage that Israel has now done.

I don't mean to suggest that one should only worry about Lebanon's Christians, who form 40 percent of the electorate.

The Shiite Muslims of the south have been subjected to collective punishment on a mass scale. Whole towns and villages have been destroyed. Nearly a million people are displaced and homeless. The deliberate deportation or forcible transfer of a civilian population during war time is a crime against humanity, as is unnecessary expulsion of civilians from their homes.

Lebanon is a small country, with a population of only 3.8 million. A fourth of the country is homeless! That would be like a disaster that left 70 million Americans wandering around with just the shirts on their backs, living in shelters and schools, wondering where their next bite of food would come from, their homes in rubble, their lives destroyed.

In other times and places, the authorities in Jerusalem have complained about this sort of thing.

Relatively few Shiite Muslims of Lebanon are fascists of any sort. There are all kinds of Shiites. The father of the renowned entertainer Haifa Wahbi is Shiite.

Look closely at this AP photo from Monday, captioned "FLIGHT FROM TERROR: A woman runs past a destroyed building, still in flames, after it had been attacked by Israeli warplane missiles, in the southern suburbs of Beirut, Lebanon yesterday." Look at the woman. This is the Shiite "Islamic fascist" that BushMert is making war on?

http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/08/08/Foreign/Images/bomb.gif

Then there are other problems with what Bush said. He contrasted "Islamic fascism" to "democracy," presumably a reference to the Lebanese Hizbullah.

This point is incorrect and offensive for many reasons.

It is a misuse of the word "Islamic." "Islamic" has to do with the ideals and achievements of the Muslims and the Muslim religion. Thus, we speak of Islamic art. We speak of Islamic ethics.

There can be Muslim fascists, just as there can be Christian fascists (and were, in Spain, Italy and Germany, and parts of Central and South America; the Spanish fascists and the Argentinian ones, e.g., were adopted by the United States government as close allies.)

But there cannot be "Islamic" fascists, because the Islamic religion enshrines values that are incompatible with fascism.

Fascism is not even a very good description of the ideology of most Muslim fundamentalists. Most fascism in the Middle East has been secular in character, as with Saddam Hussein's Baath Party. Fascism involves extreme nationalism and most often racism. Muslim fundamentalist movements reject the nation-state as their primary loyalty and reject race as a basis for political action or social discrimination. Fascists exalt the state above individual rights or the rule of law. Muslim fundamentalists exalt Islamic law above the utilitarian interests of the state. Fascism exalts youth and a master race above the old and the "inferior" races. Muslim fundamentalists would never speak this way. Fascism glorifies "war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness." Muslim fundamentalists view holy war as a ritual with precise conditions and laws governing its conduct. It is not considered an end in itself.

The lazy conflation of Muslim fundamentalist movements with fascism cannot account for their increasing willingness to participate in elections and serve in parliamentary government. Hizbullah, for example, ran in the 2005 elections and had 12 members elected to parliament. Altogether, the Shiite parties of Hizbullah and Amal, who have a parliamentary alliance, have 29 members in the Lebanese parliament of 128 seats. Hizbullah and Amal both joined the national unity government, receiving cabinet posts. This is not the behavior of a fascist movement tout court.

Indeed, Hizbullah has made political alliances with Christian parties, most recently with that of Michel Aoun. Opinion polls have shown that a significant proportion of Lebanese Shiites who voted for Hizbullah are more secular-minded than the party is. Hizbullah has authoritarian tendencies, but has shown itself willing to compromise and act pragmatically within the Lebanese system, and has demonstrated an ability to gain support from voters that do not share its fundamentalist ideology.

Hizbullah is a poor people's movement. It could have been moderated over time, and its adherents could have been pulled into more moderate, mainstream politics if the world had devoted itself to seeing that the Lebanese economy flourished and its government was gradually strengthened. That was the achievement of the Lebanese and regional political elite in the 1990s. If the Israelis had not aggressively occupied the Lebanese South, there would have been no Hizbullah. If the Israelis had left ten years earlier, Hizbullah would have disarmed when all the other militias did. Hizbullah could have been nurtured out of existence if Lebanon had been helped.

Now, extremism has been strengthened. Lebanon is abject, on its knees, stricken with a plague inflicted on it by Bush and Olmert. The abject, the humiliated, the impoverished do not, as Bush and Olmert fondly imagine to themselves, lie down and let the mighty walk over them. They blow up skyscrapers.

The idea that the whole Eastern Mediterranean had to be polluted, that the Christian Lebanese economy had to be destroyed for the next decade or two, that 900,000 persons had to be rendered homeless, that a whole country had to be pounded into rubble because some Lebanese Shiites voted for Hizbullah in the last election, putting 12 in parliament, is obscene. Bush's glib ignorance is destroying our world. Our children will suffer for it, and perhaps our grandchildren after them.


(external links in the article can be gotten here
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:54 am
old europe wrote:
Well I understand why each side thinks that manipulating the media is desirable. And Israel does it through censorship. Yes, that's manipulation, too: no pictures of Israeli jets firing rockets on Beirut, no pictures of Israeli soldiers targeting civilian neighborhoods, no pictures of bodies. As far as the material that passes through the Israeli censorship has it, this is a clean war, where only Hezbollah posts firing rockets at Israel are being targeted.

Understandable, maybe, but probably not representing what is actually happening in Lebanon.

Btw, you are saying that "many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged". Not sure what you mean by "many". I've read about one. Am I mistaken? And, because you've stated before that you believe Hezbollah has the capability of controlling everything that's coming out of Lebanon: why do you think this is the case? Do you have any sources, or is it just your opinion?


Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.

And yes, any nation is stupid to allow the media to put its soliders at higher risk or to dminish or destroy the effectiveness of a war plan. Israel may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

There is no credible evidence that Israel has done anything other than target the rocket launchers and/or the supply routes to them or the ability to use them. If you have a problem with Israel doing that, then there's not much I can say to you. There will be time enough to sort out the details of history on this conflict. But Hezbollah is on the wrong side of history in this one.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:55 am
old europe wrote:
Well I understand why each side thinks that manipulating the media is desirable. And Israel does it through censorship. Yes, that's manipulation, too: no pictures of Israeli jets firing rockets on Beirut, no pictures of Israeli soldiers targeting civilian neighborhoods, no pictures of bodies. As far as the material that passes through the Israeli censorship has it, this is a clean war, where only Hezbollah posts firing rockets at Israel are being targeted.

Understandable, maybe, but probably not representing what is actually happening in Lebanon.

Btw, you are saying that "many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged". Not sure what you mean by "many". I've read about one. Am I mistaken? And, because you've stated before that you believe Hezbollah has the capability of controlling everything that's coming out of Lebanon: why do you think this is the case? Do you have any sources, or is it just your opinion?


Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.

And yes, any nation is stupid to allow the media to put its soliders at higher risk or to dminish or destroy the effectiveness of a war plan. Israel may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

There is no credible evidence that Israel has done anything other than target the rocket launchers and/or the supply routes to them or the ability to use them. If you have a problem with Israel doing that, then there's not much I can say to you. There will be time enough to sort out the details of history on this conflict. But Hezbollah is on the wrong side of history in this one.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 06:55 am
old europe wrote:
Well I understand why each side thinks that manipulating the media is desirable. And Israel does it through censorship. Yes, that's manipulation, too: no pictures of Israeli jets firing rockets on Beirut, no pictures of Israeli soldiers targeting civilian neighborhoods, no pictures of bodies. As far as the material that passes through the Israeli censorship has it, this is a clean war, where only Hezbollah posts firing rockets at Israel are being targeted.

Understandable, maybe, but probably not representing what is actually happening in Lebanon.

Btw, you are saying that "many of the photos coming out of Qana were staged". Not sure what you mean by "many". I've read about one. Am I mistaken? And, because you've stated before that you believe Hezbollah has the capability of controlling everything that's coming out of Lebanon: why do you think this is the case? Do you have any sources, or is it just your opinion?


Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.

And yes, any nation is stupid to allow the media to put its soliders at higher risk or to dminish or destroy the effectiveness of a war plan. Israel may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

There is no credible evidence that Israel has done anything other than target the rocket launchers and/or the supply routes to them or the ability to use them. If you have a problem with Israel doing that, then there's not much I can say to you. There will be time enough to sort out the details of history in this conflict. But Hezbollah is on the wrong side of history in this one.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:01 am
Quote:
Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.


It was on freelance photographer with two (so far) pictures which have shown to have been doctored. Reuters recalled all his pictures and fired him. Other credible news agencies and photographers have published pictures of Qana and locations in Lebanon which show the devastation that Lebanon has suffered under Israeli bombs.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:15 am
Foxfyre wrote:


There is no credible evidence that Israel has done anything other than target the rocket launchers and/or the supply routes to them or the ability to use them. If you have a problem with Israel doing that, then there's not much I can say to you. There will be time enough to sort out the details of history on this conflict. But Hezbollah is on the wrong side of history in this one.


If Israel were fighting this war with the same set of rules which the hezbullies are using, there would be a million Lebanese casualties by now.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:19 am
gungasnake wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:


There is no credible evidence that Israel has done anything other than target the rocket launchers and/or the supply routes to them or the ability to use them. If you have a problem with Israel doing that, then there's not much I can say to you. There will be time enough to sort out the details of history on this conflict. But Hezbollah is on the wrong side of history in this one.


If Israel were fighting this war with the same set of rules which the hezbullies are using, there would be a million Lebanese casualties by now.


Amen to that. And anybody who is paying attention at all or who has even a shred of objectivity re this conflict knows that.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:20 am
revel wrote:
Quote:
Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.


It was on freelance photographer with two (so far) pictures which have shown to have been doctored. Reuters recalled all his pictures and fired him. Other credible news agencies and photographers have published pictures of Qana and locations in Lebanon which show the devastation that Lebanon has suffered under Israeli bombs.


The picture they're NOT showing you is what Lebanon or any other country would look like after launching 3000 rockets and missiles into the United States, Russia, or any other country with military capabilities similar to those of Israel.

Here's what it would look like:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/hiroshima-2f.jpg
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:24 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.


Apparently, the number has been reported higher at first and then corrected. Apparently, one picture of the Qana incident had been manipulated by one photographer who has now been fired.

The rest are accusations, and I haven't seen much evidence for those. It has been said that Hezbollah staged the incident, that the children had already been dead, that they had been killed by Hezbollah, that they had intentionally been placed there to be hit by Israeli missiles - all without evidence.

And I'm not going to take one manipulated picture (the rest wasn't from the Qana incident) as evidence for all these accusations. Yet, that seems to be what you've been saying.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 07:27 am
Foxfyre wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
If Israel were fighting this war with the same set of rules which the hezbullies are using, there would be a million Lebanese casualties by now.


Amen to that. And anybody who is paying attention at all or who has even a shred of objectivity re this conflict knows that.


And if the NYPD had been fighting street crime with the same set of rules which the criminals are using, there would be no New York City today...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:30 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Geez, OE, the Qana photos have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere and on this thread. Read back through them.


Apparently, the number has been reported higher at first and then corrected. Apparently, one picture of the Qana incident had been manipulated by one photographer who has now been fired.

The rest are accusations, and I haven't seen much evidence for those. It has been said that Hezbollah staged the incident, that the children had already been dead, that they had been killed by Hezbollah, that they had intentionally been placed there to be hit by Israeli missiles - all without evidence.

And I'm not going to take one manipulated picture (the rest wasn't from the Qana incident) as evidence for all these accusations. Yet, that seems to be what you've been saying.


I think you're confusing accounts here. Again go back through the last several days of posts. Numerous sources have been posted tesifying to the questionable nature of many or all of the Qana photos and how they were produced. Nobody is saying people didn't die or that it wasn't tragic. But there is considerable evidence that it was not as Hezbollah wanted the media to believe and report.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:49 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Numerous sources have been posted tesifying to the questionable nature of many or all of the Qana photos and how they were produced.


Sure. And subsequently people have claimed that maybe the incident hadn't happened at all, or had been entirely staged, or that the children had already been dead and had been placed there, etc. It's amazing how fast people can come up with conspiracy theories.

And your argument seemed to run along those lines of "well, now that we have seen manipulated photos, what are we to believe at all?"
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 08:55 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Numerous sources have been posted tesifying to the questionable nature of many or all of the Qana photos and how they were produced.


Sure. And subsequently people have claimed that maybe the incident hadn't happened at all, or had been entirely staged, or that the children had already been dead and had been placed there, etc. It's amazing how fast people can come up with conspiracy theories.

And your argument seemed to run along those lines of "well, now that we have seen manipulated photos, what are we to believe at all?"


Yes, now that we have seen some obviously manipulated photos, there is reason for even more caution in what we believe of the propaganda that is being fed to us. There is no credible source that has suggested Israel is intentionally trying to kill civilians. And there is no credible source that has suggested that Hezbollah isn't. So I think it is wise to factor all that in before swallowing hook, line, and sinker the stuff that the pro-Hezbollah side is feeding to us.

Here on a message board it comes down to which side of that you're going to pick to support if you pick a side at all. I picked the side that doesn't intentionally try to kill civilians. I don't understand how anybody can pick the other side, or try to defend that or ignore that, but some do.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Aug, 2006 10:53 am
Israel Threatens to Attack UN Troops http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839442,00.html
0 Replies
 
 

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