Everyone agrees that Israel has a right to protect itself. But writes Henry Siegman, former executive director of the American Jewish Congress, "Israel's political and military leaders remain addicted to the notion that whatever they have a right to do, they have a right to overdo." Self-defense is one thing. Systematic punishment of civilians is another.
Reports are that Hezbollah were shocked at the amount and intensity of Israels response to their act of aggression...so I'd say the proportion was exactly perfect.
This will be the best deterrent for further Hezbollah shananigans in Lebanon down the road....much better than talking.
UN 1559 fully in force thanks to Israel.
Brand X wrote:Reports are that Hezbollah were shocked at the amount and intensity of Israels response to their act of aggression...so I'd say the proportion was exactly perfect.
This will be the best deterrent for further Hezbollah shananigans in Lebanon down the road....much better than talking.
UN 1559 fully in force thanks to Israel.
Cool! to inforce one Resolution is to distroy half their country, it make sense, NOW to inforce Israel's resolutions someone will probably have to Nuke them, just to be fair.
A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel" 1955-1992:
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.
Quote:From Israel's perspective, defeating this unconventional enemy requires an unconventional strategy. Hizbollah's headquarters are in urban neighborhoods and it fires its rockets from civilian areas, making it virtually impossible for Israel to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Israel's response is to destroy those elements of Lebanon's infrastructure, including its civilian components, which it says house and sustain Hizbollah.
Israel is using the "opportunity" presented by Hizbollah's attack to take care of the guerrilla force once and for all. But given Israel's choice of methods, it is inevitable that innocent Lebanese civilians will be killed in the process.
It's always the same old story. Next they will say that those inside those houses are using the women and children as human shields. I wonder if they have a hand book that tells them what to say when they hit keep killing civilians.
Now go back and tell us who originated all those UN resolutions ...
In other words you don't have a clue, nor do you care. I think your remarks are decidedly anti-Israeli, and as you are on the record as saying that Israel has no right to exist, I'll assume your source is probably of the same opinion
McGentrix wrote:Now go back and tell us who originated all those UN resolutions ...
Is this really a valid point always to look back at that? Then, why isn't it done with other resolutions ...
Quote:In other words you don't have a clue, nor do you care. I think your remarks are decidedly anti-Israeli, and as you are on the record as saying that Israel has no right to exist, I'll assume your source is probably of the same opinion
However if the poll is true and you think it's anti-Israel then you must have a low opinion of Israel. If you look at the politicians the people of Israel vote for and their party platforms I think you will see this poll is not off the mark.
McGentrix wrote:Now go back and tell us who originated all those UN resolutions ...
Is this really a valid point always to look back at that? Then, why isn't it done with other resolutions ...
TYRE, Lebanon -- An entire neighborhood of a southern Lebanese village is no more: All 15 houses were destroyed Wednesday in an airstrike by Israelis apparently determined to stop Hezbollah's frequent rocket fire from this region.
Down the road, residents fled north on treacherous roads regularly targeted with Israeli bombs. Meanwhile, U.N. peacekeepers in the nearby southern port of Tyre prepared to evacuate their families and other Westerners.
Israel's onslaught, now in its second week, has wreaked its worst damage in the poor farming regions of southern Lebanon. Warplanes have blasted bridges and roads and turned villages into ghost towns as civilians flee, abandoning the area to Hezbollah guerrillas who continue to fire rockets on Israel and engage any ground force that advances from the border 12 miles to the south.
The Tyre region is the heartland of Lebanon's Shiite Muslims. The guerrilla group is less powerful in the city of Tyre, an ancient port with white sandy beaches and Roman ruins where more moderate Shiite factions dominate. But the villages nestled in valleys outside the city are a bastion of support for the Shiite Hezbollah.
On Wednesday, Israeli strikes thundered down on two villages after Hezbollah fired rockets from the area, said residents. And it was residents who were hit in retaliation.
The Najdeh neighborhood in the village of Srifa was flattened into a heap of rubble - with the rooftop of a single house sticking out of the pile.
The village mayor said between 25 and 30 people were believed to have been in the 15 wrecked houses, and their fate was unknown. Fire engines put out the blaze and rescuers struggled to retrieve the casualties.
"This is a real massacre," Mayor Hussein Kamaledine said.
After the first strikes, Hezbollah fighters carrying walkie-talkies rushed for cover whenever Israeli warplanes or pilotless aircraft appeared overhead. The few remaining people in the village huddled in cellars and or with cattle in barns. Five members of the Aladine family wounded by shrapnel had to be carried on stretchers as by people walking three miles to a hospital in Sarafand.
Israeli bombs destroyed the main road to Srifa through the bluffs over Tyre so those trying to reach the village had to walk, rushing for cover under trees whenever the roar of planes or the drone of a pilotless plane was heard. Some smaller roads were still passable.
Farther north at Ghaziyeh, one person was killed and two wounded when an Israeli missile struck a building that housed a Hezbollah-affiliated social institution - which was empty - and a neighboring home.
"May God's wrath fall upon America and Israel," said Abu Ali Koteish, 53, who owns a nearby flower shop.
In the village of Salaa, a strike destroyed several houses. Villagers said bodies were trapped under the rubble with no heavy machinery available to rescue them. No casualty count was immediately known.
In Tyre, relatives of U.N. peacekeeping personnel as well as some French citizens were preparing to leave on a cruise ship.
Families camped out at a beach with their luggage to wait for the vessel, being sent by France. The ship was expected once arrangements could be made with Israel, which is blockading Lebanon's ports.
I realize that the militants in Lebanan started this (I think, I haven't got it all sorted out yet) but this is over kill by any means.
Because we aren't talking about other resolutions are we?
McGentrix wrote:
Because we aren't talking about other resolutions are we?
That's okay.
Next time, you something about some other resolutions, I'll quote your response.
revel wrote:Quote:From Israel's perspective, defeating this unconventional enemy requires an unconventional strategy. Hizbollah's headquarters are in urban neighborhoods and it fires its rockets from civilian areas, making it virtually impossible for Israel to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Israel's response is to destroy those elements of Lebanon's infrastructure, including its civilian components, which it says house and sustain Hizbollah.
Israel is using the "opportunity" presented by Hizbollah's attack to take care of the guerrilla force once and for all. But given Israel's choice of methods, it is inevitable that innocent Lebanese civilians will be killed in the process.
It's always the same old story. Next they will say that those inside those houses are using the women and children as human shields. I wonder if they have a hand book that tells them what to say when they hit keep killing civilians.
You don't believe that Islamo-facist Terrorists use women and children as shields? You don't believe that they intentionally hide and operate from civilian neighborhoods? Does Israel, the USA, Britain, Australia, et al make that up? If you think terrorists are really good guys at heart and wouldn't intentionally jeopardize innocent people for their own purposes, you might explain where they aimed those some 40 rockets fired into Israeli cities and who they hoped to kill with them. And what military target is destroyed when a bus filled with school children or a busy market is blown up?
If you admit that terrorists don't put a high priority on human life, including lives of civilians, women, children, etc., and do in fact hide among them, then the next question is how do you fight an enemy that hides among women and children?
That is the issue here.
Revel writes
Quote:I realize that the militants in Lebanan started this (I think, I haven't got it all sorted out yet) but this is over kill by any means.
Well since you ignored my earlier question to you, I'll try again. If you have a terrorist organization who kidnapped two of your soliders and, when you demanded their release, began firing 30 to 40 fairly sophisticated rockets into your civilian neighborhoods, what would not be overkill?
Fighting Hizbollah with 'Deliberately Disproportionate' Force
By Pierre Atlas
In response to Hizbollah's unprovoked cross-border raid last week, Israel has drawn from its formidable arsenal to attack targets in Lebanon. The goal is to defang Hizbollah--perhaps the most effective fighting force in the Arab world--remove from Israel's northern border, and get back the two Israeli soldiers who were captured in the raid.
There is an asymmetry of power in the fighting between the Israel Defense Forces and Hizbollah. Israeli ordnance has far greater lethality and accuracy than the rockets Hizbollah has used thus far against Israeli cities. The civilian death toll is accumulating at a ratio of ten Lebanese for every one Israeli. Even as Hizbollah has been condemned by some Arab governments, Israel's targeted destruction in Lebanon is provoking widespread anger and dismay.
There is an ongoing debate as to whether Israel's response is "proportionate," and if not, whether it is justified. Hizbollah was the instigator of this conflict. Its initial attack and its firing of over 1,000 katyusha rockets at northern Israeli cities are indefensible. But does this mean that Israel is justified in its chosen response? Might this be a case of "two wrongs don't make a right"?
Hizbollah is an unconventional enemy, unique in the world. It is a "state-within-a state" embedded within the Lebanese society and polity, yet it is also a rogue force that is well-armed, violent, and unaccountable to Lebanon's sovereign government. By all accounts, Hizbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese Army, and it has dragged an unwilling Lebanon into war with Israel to fulfill its own agenda, and perhaps the agendas of its patrons, Syria and Iran.
Yossi Alpher, Israeli strategic analyst and co-editor of the Israeli-Palestinian dialogue website Bitter Lemons (www.bitterlemons.org), suggests that "the Israeli response in Lebanon is deliberately disproportional."
Alpher told me that deliberate disproportionality "is an imperative when fighting a guerrilla enemy waging asymmetrical warfare. It is also [Prime Minister] Olmert's strategy for weakening Hizbollah to a point where the Lebanese government, perhaps with international backing and participation, can remove it from Lebanon's southern border and disarm it."
From Israel's perspective, defeating this unconventional enemy requires an unconventional strategy. Hizbollah's headquarters are in urban neighborhoods and it fires its rockets from civilian areas, making it virtually impossible for Israel to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. Israel's response is to destroy those elements of Lebanon's infrastructure, including its civilian components, which it says house and sustain Hizbollah.
Israel is using the "opportunity" presented by Hizbollah's attack to take care of the guerrilla force once and for all. But given Israel's choice of methods, it is inevitable that innocent Lebanese civilians will be killed in the process.
Support for the IDF operations cuts across the Israeli political spectrum, especially as more rockets land on Haifa, Safed, and other Israeli cities. Amir Cheshin, former Arab Affairs advisor to Jerusalem mayors Teddy Kollek and Ehud Olmert and a reserve colonel in the IDF, notes that after years of relative quiet on the border, Hizbollah "violated the unwritten understanding between Israel and Lebanon by kidnapping two Israeli soldiers from sovereign Israeli soil." This new reality led Israel to change its approach to Hizbollah and take offensive action, rather than simply deter it with threats of retaliation.
World attention is focused, legitimately, on the level of destruction being meted out on Lebanon. But in assessing Israel's response, one needs to look beyond the asymmetry of power, to a second asymmetry in terms of goals. Israel's goals are strategic, while Hizbollah's are existential. Israel has the greater arsenal, but it is fighting an enemy that won't be satisfied as long as Israel continues to exist. In this case the asymmetry is reversed. And it begs the question: how should you fight such a group as it wages war on you?
Hizbollah is not just a "Lebanese militia," but is Iran's proxy army, with Syria as the middleman. Hizbollah's actions, and Israeli reactions, could spark a regional war. "I'm afraid that if the Iranian president allows Hizbollah to use its long distance missiles against Israel" and they hit Tel Aviv, says Cheshin, "very soon we will find ourselves in a third world war."
The Lebanese people are being squeezed between Israel and Hizbollah, two forces that do not prioritize protecting Lebanese life. But so long as Lebanon and the international community remain unable or unwilling to disarm Hizbollah and remove it from Israel's border, Israel will continue to use its arsenal in a "deliberately disproportionate" manner against the organization that proudly declares itself to be Israel's existential enemy.
It is time for the international community to step into the fray for the sake of the Lebanese and the Israeli people. But any serious proposal must acknowledge that there can be no return to the "status quo ante."
Hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah militants in Lebanon must stop immediately, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has said.
He told the UN Security Council it was "imperative" to establish safe aid corridors in the country, amid growing fears of a humanitarian catastrophe.
Mr Annan's call for a ceasefire followed a similar demand by the EU, which pledged 10m euros (£6.8m) in aid.
Bombed roads are hampering aid efforts as the fighting continues.
"We are not going to desert the people of Lebanon in their time of need, but we have to proceed with caution," Mr Annan told the Security Council at a briefing on the situation.
Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers are fighting militants inside Lebanon, Israeli officials say.
Israel is also continuing its bombing campaign, carrying out 80 air strikes early on Thursday.
'Catastrophe'
As thousands of foreigners continue to flee the country with the help of their governments, aid agencies are expressing increasing concern for those who will be left behind, especially people in the south who have been displaced by the fighting.
UN emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland said the wounded could not be helped because Israeli air raids had cut off roads.
Without a truce allowing aid agencies to begin the relief effort there would be a "catastrophe", he warned.
Mr Annan is due to hold a private meeting with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana later on Thursday.
He has already repeated calls for a new international force to be deployed in the Lebanese border region.
'Catastrophe'
As thousands of foreigners continue to flee the country with the help of their governments, aid agencies are expressing increasing concern for those who will be left behind, especially people in the south who have been displaced by the fighting.
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the EU aid would be dedicated to those in most urgent need "so that we can express our solidarity to the civilians that are suffering for this terrible conflict".
Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen of Finland, which holds the EU presidency, said the 25-member bloc was "acutely concerned" about the crisis.
"The EU stands ready to help. A strong international presence in southern Lebanon, approved by the Security Council, may be needed," he said.
"However, all parties to the conflict must first commit to a ceasefire."
Lebanon's president has also called for an immediate ceasefire, describing Israel's offensive - which has killed about 300 people and displaced an estimated 500,000 - as a "massacre".
UN emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland said the wounded could not be helped because Israeli air raids had cut off roads.
Without a truce allowing aid agencies to begin the relief effort there would be a "catastrophe", he warned
The nine days of fighting - triggered by the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah in a cross-border raid - have left 29 Israelis dead, including 15 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel.
Earlier, Captain Eric Schneider from the Israeli Defence Force told the BBC there was heavy fighting between Israeli troops and Hezbollah militants in two places inside Lebanon's border.
Hezbollah issued a statement saying that it had destroyed two Israeli tanks. The Israeli army has not confirmed this, but did say at least three Israeli soldiers had been injured.
The Israeli public security minister, Avi Dichter, said Hezbollah had to understand that its "time is up" and that Israel will only accept a Lebanese government force at the border.
In other developments:
Those being evacuated on Thursday include about 3,000 Britons, who are being transferred onto three Royal Navy ships
US marines from the USS Nashville have come ashore in Beirut to assist with the evacuation of US citizens
Cyprus says it cannot cope with the influx of evacuees, expected to reach 60,000, and appeals to the European Commission for additional planes to fly evacuees to their home countries
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, warns that those involved in the spiral of violence between Israel and Lebanon could face war crimes charges if they are found to have deliberately attacked civilians
Pope Benedict XVI calls for a day of prayer on Sunday for an immediate ceasefire in the crisis
The Israelis say they are fighting to end the control of Hezbollah over the lives of ordinary people on both sides of the border.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the campaign against the militants would continue "as long as necessary" to free its captured soldiers and ensure Hezbollah was not a threat.
