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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:20 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
International law requires captors to allow prisoners visits from their lawyers and from the Red Cross. Hamas denies its captive those rights; Israel accords its convicts those rights.


Provide Hamas with 3 or 4 billion dollars a year and then we'll chat.

And yet, the USA, with all its riches denies those same internationally recognized rights to, how many prisoners?

[I held off posting this for a while so that BillRM, Revel, Foxy, Ican, MM, Okie, CJ, h20man, ..., could point it out. Funny, they all missed it.]
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:40 pm
@JTT,
The obamacollectivists have declared they are going to provide Hamas a few billion dollars.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:46 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
The obamacollectivists


How might that differ from the billions that have gone for years to the socialist satellite known as Israel?

It would certainly go a long way towards evening things out, making it more likely for Israel to negotiate in good faith.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:01 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
[I held off posting this for a while so that BillRM, Revel, Foxy, Ican, MM, Okie, CJ, h20man, ..., could point it out. Funny, they all missed it.]


I didnt miss it, I just got home from work 10 minutes ago.
Contrary to some people on here, I actually have a job.

If I had seen it I would have commented on it.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Aug, 2009 11:15 am
Walter, the world is getting a bit flatter.

Hamas has imposed new restrictions to make Gaza more in accord with strict Islamic rules. See http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2009/s2663226.htm
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Aug, 2009 12:11 pm
@JTT,
So you feel it is understandable that no one is allowed to visit Shalit because the USA doesn't give Hamas billions. You must be nuts.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Aug, 2009 03:35 pm
@Advocate,
No, I didn't say it was a good thing. I think everyone should abide by international conventions. But I think that the Palestinians, as heavily outgunned as they are, are doing what they think they have to do to keep this man hidden.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 10:49 am
@JTT,
JTT, Give em hell!@ There's always two sides to every story, and we know by now that the pro-Israelis/Zionists are way off the mark when it comes to equal rights and ethical behavior. They keep saying they don't target innocent people, but they killed children in Gaza when the bombed out the UN school.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Aug, 2009 12:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That is BS about Israel targeting civilians. But the Pals always do this.

JTT, I see you are another apologist for the Pal killers and kidnappers. Regarding visits to Shalit (should he be alive), the Pals could require blindfolds, etc. Btw, I guess you have seen Hamas becoming more and more extremist. But I guess you will have some excuse for this, also.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 08:55 am
Israel and the Palestinians have been unable to reach a peace deal in the 16 years since the signing of the Oslo interim peace accords, and it is likely they will be not do so in the next 16 years, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Sunday. "There is no chance of bridging the Israeli and Palestinian positions in the foreseeable future," he was quoted in the JP.

JP report
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 11:08 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
JTT, I see you are another apologist for the Pal killers and kidnappers.


I seem to remember Israeli agents kidnapping people from countries all over the world. Do you remember that, Advocate?

Quote:

Regarding visits to Shalit (should he be alive), the Pals could require blindfolds, etc.


Yeah, I'm sure that the Israelis hiding behind the bushes/walls would keep their eyes shut. Come on, Advocate, please, think before you speak. You often do but, on this, you seem to have a blind spot a mile wide.


Quote:
Btw, I guess you have seen Hamas becoming more and more extremist. But I guess you will have some excuse for this, also.


Yeah, you have to be careful of extremism.

Quote:
Future Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Shamir was among its leaders.

Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949 and in 1980 the group was honored by the institution of the Lehi ribbon, a military decoration the organization's former members are entitled to wear.[8]



McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 11:10 am

Here's a thing: an Israeli anti-Zionist works on a solution.


Why Israeli Jew Uri Davis joined Fatah to save Palestine

The first Jewish member of the Revolutionary Council of Fatah talks about a unique political journey

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/23/uri-davis-interview-israel-fatah-palestine
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:42 pm
@JTT,
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 12:55 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Thanks for the ancient history on Israeli groups struggling against the British occupiers. What a non sequitur!

Quote:
Elul 3, 5769 / August 23, '09
Published: 07/30/09, 7:48 PM

(IsraelNN.com) In response to increased international pressure on Israel’s government to halt Jewish construction in eastern Jerusalem, activists from the Zionist Freedom Alliance have taken up residence in the neighborhood of Beit Hanina.

http://i26.tinypic.com/693pn4.jpg

... ... ...
Source:http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132661]Israel National News
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 08:05 pm
I just wanted to stop by to say how sorry i am for all the conservatives who so fervently longed for world war three . . . and didn't get it.

Better luck next time, war mongers . . .
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 08:50 pm
@Setanta,
Stanta wrote:
I just wanted to stop by to say how sorry i am for all the conservatives who so fervently longed for world war three . . . and didn't get it.

Save your sorrow for all those collectivists like yourself, who are ignorant enough to believe there's even one conservative who "fervently longed for world war three ."
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Aug, 2009 01:57 am
@Setanta,
name one
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Aug, 2009 02:13 am
@JTT,
I seem to remember Israeli agents kidnapping people from countries all over the world. Do you remember that, Advocate?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean the program to get the Nazis mass killers from the coutries that for one reason or another decided to shielded them?

Shame on them for doing that and it is the same class as the Pals kidnapping at least by your very sick mind it is, but no one else.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Aug, 2009 12:57 pm
I think anytime anybody tries to put the problems of the Araba, more particularly the Palestinians, vs the Israelis into simplistic terms, he or she will largely miss the greater principles involved.

The more simple minded who support the Palestinians can see no good in Israel. The more simple minded who support Israel can see no good in the Palestinians.

The truth of course lies somewhere apart from either extreme.

To determine if I wanted to order it, I was researching Dore Gold's new book on a nuclear Iran when I ran across this link to one of his essays written more than five years ago.

For those willing to really read and consider it, it illustrates better than anything else I've seen the more subtle nuances that have become part of the debate. And it really is more complicated than the more simplistic arguments that "Israel has a right to defend itself' versus the "Justice requires giving rights to Palestinians and any danger to Israel should not be a requisite to that." I expect Dr. Gold to soon be assessing the finer points of Barack Obama's policies toward this difficult situation.

Quote:
Institute for Contemporary Affairs
founded jointly with the Wechsler Family Foundation
JERUSALEM ISSUE BRIEF
Vol. 3, No. 21 15 April 2004
Bush Erases the Clinton Parameters
Dore Gold

President Bush's April 14, 2004, letter to Prime Minister Sharon represents a significant shift in U.S. policy, as compared to the Clinton Parameters advanced by the former president after the failed Camp David Summit of July 2000 and in subsequent months.

In his plan, Clinton provided conditional approval of settlement blocs, but insisted that there needed to be "territorial swaps" of land from pre-1967 Israel in exchange for any West Bank land Israel would retain. Bush does not insist on any land swaps involving Israeli territory.

Clinton spoke of Palestinian refugees finding homes in other states including Israel, while Bush states that Palestinian refugees should be settled in a future Palestinian state "rather than Israel."

The Clinton Parameters dropped the idea of defensible borders and replaced them with "security guarantees" including a proposed "international presence" in the Jordan Valley. In contrast, Bush refers to "defensible borders" in the context of preserving and strengthening "Israel's capability to deter and defend itself, by itself."

According to the Clinton Parameters, Israel's security needs "need not and should not come at the expense of Palestinian sovereignty or interfere with Palestinian territorial integrity." In contrast, Bush allows for Israel to continue to control airspace, territorial waters, and land passages in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank "pending agreements or other arrangements."

During the Clinton era, the signing of a peace treaty was supposed to produce security for Israelis. Under Bush, security must be achieved first, as a prerequisite for peace. Given the threats Israel still faces from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Yasser Arafat's own Fatah Tanzim, the approach taken in the Bush letter represents a significant improvement for Israel and for the prospects of a lasting peace.

President George W. Bush's April 14, 2004, letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon represents a significant shift in U.S. policy toward the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Prior to the Bush-Sharon summit, U.S. policy pronouncements were largely procedural, with the important exception of Bush's public backing of Palestinian statehood. For example, the Quartet Roadmap outlines a diplomatic pathway for reaching Palestinian statehood, but it takes no positions on final status issues such as borders, Jerusalem, or refugees.

The last administration to take a public position on these issues was that of President Bill Clinton, who addressed the Israel Policy Forum in New York on January 7, 2001, at the end of his presidency. In that address, he laid out what became known as the "Clinton Parameters," which summarized positions he advanced after the failed Camp David Summit of July 2000 and in subsequent months.

1. Settlement Blocs
It is not entirely accurate to say that Bush was the first U.S. president to envision the incorporation of West Bank settlement blocs into Israel. In his plan, Clinton provided conditional approval of settlement blocs with certain caveats. There needed to be some "territorial swaps" - that is, Israel had to trade land from pre-1967 Israel in exchange for any West Bank land that it would retain.

Bush did not use the expression "settlement blocs." But he did state that final borders would have to be based on "new realities on the ground including already existing major Israeli population centers." Significantly, Bush did not insist on any land swaps involving Israel having to concede pre-1967 territory. In that sense, Bush has restored the original terms of reference in the peace process that confined the territorial issue to the dispute over the West Bank and Gaza Strip alone, on the basis of UN Security Council Resolution 242, without involving any additional territory.

2. Refugees
Clinton spoke about the idea that the Palestinian state "will provide all Palestinians with a place they can safely and proudly call home." But he also allowed the Palestinian refugees to find a new home in other locations, consistent with the immigration policies of other states. He specifically said that Israel could be one of those states, though he clarified that it would be Israel's sovereign decision to let them in. This formulation could subject Israel to political pressure from international bodies to make the decision to accept certain numbers of refugees, since, in principle, Israel is identified as one possible place of residence for Palestinians. To a large extent, Bush closes this door.

Bush reiterates in his letter the point he raised at last year's Aqaba Summit, that the U.S. is committed to Israel's security and well-being as "a Jewish state" - a position which should dissuade Palestinians hoping to overwhelm Israel demographically. But, more importantly, he states that Palestinian refugees should be settled in a future Palestinian state "rather than in Israel." Of course, tighter language could have been used like "and not in Israel." But clearly Bush went farther than any previous U.S. president in protecting Israel from the Palestinian claim of a "right of return," which does not emanate from UN General Assembly Resolution 194, Palestinian arguments not withstanding.

3. Defensible Borders
Bush restored the traditional U.S. view that Israel has a right to defensible borders that are to be different from the 1949 Armistice Lines (the pre-1967 borders). Initially, the Clinton administration supported the idea of defensible borders in its January 17, 1997, letter by Secretary of State Warren Christopher to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. But with the 2001 Clinton Parameters, the idea of defensible borders was dropped and replaced by "security guarantees." Indeed, Clinton proposed "an international presence in Palestine to provide border security along the Jordan Valley."

In contrast, Bush refers to defensible borders in the context of preserving and strengthening "Israel's capability to deter and defend itself, by itself." There is no multilateral body that is supposed to replace the Israel Defense Forces. Preserving Israel's doctrine of self-reliance, fashioned under Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, is consistent with the national security doctrine of Prime Minister Sharon; its premise is that only Israeli soldiers should risk their lives in Israel's defense.

4. Israel's Security
Clinton's commitment to Israel's security needs included a huge caveat. Security guarantees to Israel, according to the Clinton Parameters, "need not and should not come at the expense of Palestinian sovereignty, or interfere with Palestinian territorial integrity." For example, if Israel needed to retain an early-warning station on a West Bank hilltop, this principle could be used to preclude an Israeli claim. Essentially, it placed Palestinian national sensitivities above Israeli security needs. In contrast, in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, Bush allows for Israel to continue to control airspace, territorial waters, and land passages, "pending agreements or other arrangements." This includes continuing Israeli control of the Philadelphia corridor between Gaza and Egyptian Sinai.

5. Jerusalem
The Clinton Parameters explicitly envisioned the re-division of sovereignty in Jerusalem according to a formula whereby "what is Arab should be Palestinian" and "what is Jewish should be Israeli." Bush's letter is silent on the issue of Jerusalem. While support for a unified Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty is missing, at least there is no attempt to return to the Clinton formulations.

Conclusions
Both the Clinton parameters and the Bush letter were offered in the context of Israeli concessions: in Clinton's time, Barak proposed giving up almost all of the West Bank and Gaza (as well as dividing Jerusalem), while Bush's positions were in the context of an Israeli pull-out from Gaza alone. Thus, there is no question that the Bush letter to Sharon represents a major shift in U.S. policy toward Israel. Part of this shift is undoubtedly due to Bush's special relationship with Israel. Of course, some of the unique specifics of the Bush letter can also be attributed to the collapse of the negotiating process between former Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat. Undoubtedly, Bush's strong stand on terrorism - which does not appear in the Clinton Parameters - can be traced to the post-9/11 environment in the U.S.

Here, there is an important policy development. During the Clinton era, the signing of a peace treaty was supposed to produce security for Israelis. Under Bush, security must be achieved first, as a prerequisite for peace. Given the threats Israel still faces from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Yasser Arafat's own Fatah Tanzim, the approach taken in the Bush letter represents a significant improvement for Israel and for the prospects of a lasting peace.
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-21.htm
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Aug, 2009 03:46 pm
@Foxfyre,

Quote:
I think anytime anybody tries to put the problems of the Araba, more particularly the Palestinians, vs the Israelis into simplistic terms, he or she will largely miss the greater principles involved.


And I think anyone who needlessly over-complicates it is guilty of obfuscation for nefarious ends.
0 Replies
 
 

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