ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

bizarre...

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Even more bizarre..but not surprising.

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EU-No intent yet to add Hizbollah to terror list
01 Aug 2006 16:12:36 GMT
Source: Reuters
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Background
Israeli-Palestinian conflict
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BRUSSELS, Aug 1 (Reuters) - The European Union does not intend to place Hizbollah on its list of terrorist organisations for the time being, EU President Finland said on Tuesday.

"Given the senstitive situtaion, I don't think this is something we will be acting on now," Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, told a news conference following an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

Tuomioja's comments were in response to a letter signed by 213 members of the United States Congress sent to EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana asking that the EU add Hizbollah to its terrorist list.

Source

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Brand X wrote:

Even more bizarre..but not surprising.

Quote:

EU-No intent yet to add Hizbollah to terror list
01 Aug 2006 16:12:36 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS XML [-] Text [+]

Background
Israeli-Palestinian conflict
More
BRUSSELS, Aug 1 (Reuters) - The European Union does not intend to place Hizbollah on its list of terrorist organisations for the time being, EU President Finland said on Tuesday.

"Given the senstitive situtaion, I don't think this is something we will be acting on now," Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, told a news conference following an emergency meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

Tuomioja's comments were in response to a letter signed by 213 members of the United States Congress sent to EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana asking that the EU add Hizbollah to its terrorist list.

Source

The EU should be patted on its collective head and politely told what to do with its objections.

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Agreed, no matter how physically/anatomically difficult that might be.

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Foxfyre wrote:

As the United States has not demonstrated any expansionist tendencies in this Century, its backing of any country is not for USA expansionist purposes. No country, not even a temporarily occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, thinks the USA is trying to take it over. No country thinks Israel is trying to take it over.

Between 600 and 800 people in Lebanon (depending on your source) have been killed by the Israeli army. Beirut has been bombed. Israel has announced its intentions to carry on for another two weeks. Are you saying that Israel's neighbors don't have any reason to be scared? What exactly is your point, Foxy?

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old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
As the United States has not demonstrated any expansionist tendencies in this Century, its backing of any country is not for USA expansionist purposes. No country, not even a temporarily occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, thinks the USA is trying to take it over. No country thinks Israel is trying to take it over.

Between 600 and 800 people in Lebanon (depending on your source) have been killed by the Israeli army. Beirut has been bombed. Israel has announced its intentions to carry on for another two weeks. Are you saying that Israel's neighbors don't have any reason to be scared? What exactly is your point, Foxy?

I don't think Israel's neighbors are the least bit scared. I think, if anything, they are tickled to death that the world is condemning Israel while not even requesting Hezbollah to cease and desist. I think they WANT those civilians to be dead so they can use them to manipulate world opinion. If they didn't they would be demanding Hezbollah move its rocket launchers out of civilian neighborhoods and would be condemning Hezbollah for having them there in the first place. They know the UN to be the impotent, anti-Israel organization that it is and that it will do nothing seriously punative to anybody. It won't enforce its own resolutions. Since WWII, liberal factions in the US have demanded that America tuck and run every time anything becomes difficult to do. Europe hasn't lifted a finger against any Arab nation, except to protect its oil supplies from Saddam, in more than 50 years.

They have every reason to believe they can turn the entire world against Israel and nobody will stop them from wiping it from the face of the Earth.

What do they have to fear?

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old europe wrote:

Between 600 and 800 people in Lebanon (depending on your source) have been killed by the Israeli army. Beirut has been bombed. Israel has announced its intentions to carry on for another two weeks. Are you saying that Israel's neighbors don't have any reason to be scared?

Israel's RATIONAL neighbors have no reason to fear Israel. I see no evidence of Saudi Arabia, Jordon, or Egypt suffering from any fear of Israel.

One simple rule which they have long since learned and which Olmert notes the hezbullies and lebanese are going to have to learn the hard way:

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Don't f*** with Israel, and Israel will not **** with you.

That's as simple as it ever gets.

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Blue, I am not aware of wars fought on an eye-for-an-eye basis. We never operated that way.

There is no doubt that Israel is, in effect, telling Lebanon that there is a big price to pay for aiding and sheltering a terrorist organization. I think that, for awhile, Lebanon will stick with Hez. However, the damage caused by Hez to Lebanon will sink in and the people will strongly turn against Hez.

Before Israel was attacked from Lebanon, Israel lived in peace with Lebanon. The people know that.

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BernardR wrote:

GeorgeOb1, always thoughtful, and lucid, presents what appears to be a worthy goal, But, I am very much afraid that Foxfyre is more realistic in his argument.
I am certain that George Ob1 is aware of the fundamentalist insanity behind the idea that Islam is destined to rule, not only the Middle East, but the rest of the world, Bernard Lewis, famous scholar of Islam, has given us the story of the incredible thrust of the fundamentalists in Iran toward the total destruction of Israel.

...Such fanaticism can only be countered by a strong and well armed Israel.
.....Such animals are like berserk rabid dogs who must be destroyed.
The Israelis are destroying them!

I agree there are elements within Islam which have left it unable to absorb the lessons and benefits of the modern age, and that, perhaps the chief of these are the notions of the "dar al Islam" and the "dar al harb into which the world is divided and which so preoccupied Lewis. At the same time there have been times and places in which the Moslem culture was quite open, creative and tolerant. Regrettably, however, they were few. Still - there are several insanities afoot in the world today of which Islamist zealotry is but one. Some others come cloaked in the best modern dress. Secularist materialism is one, and another is the belief that Israel must necessarily, ever and always, be a Jewish-controlled state. This kind of thinking would have prevented the development of the United States during the 19th and early 20th centruies, and it is hurting Israel (and other countries as well), today. Change and evolution are the way of the world.

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Gungasnake- After all of what has been written on this subject, your pithy line summarizes it beautifully. I think you may know why the Islamo-fascist murdering maniacs who cut throats of reporters and then release a video of the slaughter are the most dangerous people on the planet.

I must reference a group in the US.These are fundamentalist Christians who believe in the Rapture. They have been vilified and hooted down for their beliefs. I do not share in their beliefs since I think they are rather bizarre. Ascension into heaven on the last day and so forth.

However, the maniacs in Iran and other places( here I am writing about most of the Iranian mullahs) actually believe that there will be an apocalypse and after that apocalypse the Twelfth Imam will return and the world will be united under Islam in the new Caliphate.

Thus far, there seems to be a similarity between the Rapture Adherents and the Iranian Mullahs. BUT THE VITALLY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IS THAT IRAN IS WILLING TO BEGIN A NUCLEAR WAR. THE IRANIANS HAVE VOWED TO DESTROY ISRAEL.( It is certain that they cannot destroy Israel without use of Nuclear Devices). These people are raving maniacs and must be disposed of as one would dispose of mad dogs.

You said it, Gungasnake-Don't F..K with Isreal and Israel will not f..K with you. For my part, I hope that Israel destroys much more of the Lebanese Infrastructure before a cease fire. As Olmert said after the Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah-------We will make it painful--very painful...

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GeorgeOB1- I am interested in your theory concerning Israel and its evolution into a state that is not a Jewish controlled state. I am at a loss to imagine how such evolution would take place until the savages( Hezbollah, the Iranian Mullahs, the extremists in the Shiite movement) are tamed. What about an evolution of the Middle East into Democratic soveriegnties and THEN the evolution of Israel into a state that is not controlled by the Jewish religion

It is religious fanaticism that is the main barrier to the "evolution" of the Middle East. That "fanaticism" is not Israel's but belongs to the Islamic Fascists. Israel just wants to be left alone. Only religious fanatics will continue to prod Israel. As Gungasnake commented--Don;t screw with Israel and Isreal will not screw with you.

It can only be hoped that a Democracy in Iraq, quiescence in Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, Jordan. aid from secularists in Turkey, continued Democracy in Afghanistan, and, most important, a focused Israeli raid on Iranian Nuclear sites AFTER Iran is finished with spitting in the face of the world and the UN's remonstrations.

The fanatics in Iran will last only as long as the younger generation there does not realize that the extremist cry( reminding me of Adolf) that Israel must be destroyed is crammed down the fanatic Imam's throats by a focused Israeli air strike. The Israeli Air Force is among the best in the world. I wish them luck.

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georgeob, from the bridge, yelled down

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Still - there are several insanities afoot in the world today of which Islamist zealotry is but one. Some others come cloaked in the best modern dress. Secularist materialism is one,

"But", a scruffy crewman yelled back up, "what of American Exceptionalism, sir? Ought we add it to your list? I understand you might be busy at the moment so if you could just send your reply down to the brig."

"That age-old tautology of exceptionalism - "I rule as I rule, because I am who I am" - faced its only real challenge from the growth of republican ideals, crafted by the Greeks and carried forward, fitfully, to the pointed assertions by eighteenth-century neoclassicists like Jeffereson, who helped forge that era's democratic explosion. Their disruptive thesis - that the people are the sovereign, and leaders serve at the public's pleasure - sought to reverse history's traditional equation of power preserving and justifying itself." (page 262, The One Percent Doctrine, Ron Suskind)

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The barriers to the evolution of a new synthesis permitting peace, justice and modern development in the Middle East are precisely the fixed, non-negotiable ideas the several protagonists bring to the table. These include a variety of issues, ranging from an unlimited right of return for Palestinians who were displaced or left voluntarily; unlimited rights of immigration by Jews anywhere; to Islamist zealotry, which callsfor a Moslem theocracy, or its equivalent Jewish zealotry, which calls for a permanent Jewish state (religious or secular) as a transcendent requirement. With these in place no synthesis is possible.

Absent some fundamental change in all of these areas, I see little hope of peace, either in a two or one state model. I believe the past five decades have provided us with ample proof of the truth this proposition.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I don't think Israel's neighbors are the least bit scared. I think, if anything, they are tickled to death that the world is condemning Israel while not even requesting Hezbollah to cease and desist. I think they WANT those civilians to be dead so they can use them to manipulate world opinion. If they didn't they would be demanding Hezbollah move its rocket launchers out of civilian neighborhoods and would be condemning Hezbollah for having them there in the first place. They know the UN to be the impotent, anti-Israel organization that it is and that it will do nothing seriously punative to anybody. It won't enforce its own resolutions. Since WWII, liberal factions in the US have demanded that America tuck and run every time anything becomes difficult to do. Europe hasn't lifted a finger against any Arab nation, except to protect its oil supplies from Saddam, in more than 50 years.

They have every reason to believe they can turn the entire world against Israel and nobody will stop them from wiping it from the face of the Earth.

What do they have to fear?

You have asked the question before. Israel's superior military power, Israel's weapons of mass destruction, and the virtually unconditional US support for Israel are a few points I think should be considered.

However, I can't help but wonder about one thing: you basically ask people (Arab nations, the EU, the UN, or what you made out to be "world opinion") to condemn Hezbollah because of - what exactly? From reading your last couple of posts, I'm led to believe we should condemn Hezbollah because it is their stated goal to wipe Israel off the map.

Not for killing Israelis, not for launching rockets at Israel, not countering the Israeli invasion and attack. No. For stating that they want Israel disappear from the map.

Now, I find such statements more than merely distasteful, and I'd condemn their attacks on Israeli civilians anytime. In fact, I do. But the reason for doing so is that these attacks have innocent civilians as a target. Rockets launched at Israel, bombings, suicide attacks - all target civilians in a horrifying way.

And the victims and their families probably don't care whether the attack was a Hezbollah one (who is fighting for a Pan-Arabic theocratic nation) or one by Hamas (who are "just" fighting for a Palestinian nation).

However, it seems you are arguing that the reasoning behind indiscriminately targeting and killing civilians is somehow more important than the actual result. I find this very questionable. If ideology prevents us from seeing people suffering, chances are that the ideology is somehow faulty.

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Quote:

By STEVEN GUTKIN, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 56 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - On a table facing his desk, Ehud Olmert keeps photographs of three Israeli soldiers whose capture by Islamic militants in Gaza and Lebanon sparked the latest Mideast crisis...

Yahoo News

Well, at least he has quit trying to claim they were "kidnapped" inside Israel!

I was right all along.

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But, George Ob1- the Canadian Mounted Policeman, an immigrant from Canada, who knows virtuallly nothing about the US and its workings. says that the "people are the sovereign and that the leaders serve at the people's pleasure" Now the Canadian Mounted Policeman cribbed this from Ron Suskind's "The One Percent Doctrine" so he does not know first hand that Suskind is correct.

The leaders DO serve at the people's pleasure-

2000- Bush elected as President

2002-GOP gains seats in the House and Senate in an off year

2004- Bush re-elected as President- GOP gains more seats in House and Senate

And , George Ob1- I know you are aware that there was little hope of peace in 1939 among the far seeing statesmen such as WInston Churchill. The Nazis and the Japanese had to be bludgeoned into submission. NOW THEY ARE MODEL STATES.

During the Cold War, many lived in fear of a Nuclear Holocaust. The Soviets imploded.

I am hopeful that if China can change( and it has changed to a quasi-capitalistic state) because it has learned that its large population can only prosper when it is working within the new Economic Globalism, the countires of the Middle East may very well be able to do the same.

Europe was very very Catholic and Protestant in 1930. They are now largely secularists and the Churches are empty.

Is it possible that the same can happen to the Islamic doctrine?

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old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I don't think Israel's neighbors are the least bit scared. I think, if anything, they are tickled to death that the world is condemning Israel while not even requesting Hezbollah to cease and desist. I think they WANT those civilians to be dead so they can use them to manipulate world opinion. If they didn't they would be demanding Hezbollah move its rocket launchers out of civilian neighborhoods and would be condemning Hezbollah for having them there in the first place. They know the UN to be the impotent, anti-Israel organization that it is and that it will do nothing seriously punative to anybody. It won't enforce its own resolutions. Since WWII, liberal factions in the US have demanded that America tuck and run every time anything becomes difficult to do. Europe hasn't lifted a finger against any Arab nation, except to protect its oil supplies from Saddam, in more than 50 years.

They have every reason to believe they can turn the entire world against Israel and nobody will stop them from wiping it from the face of the Earth.

What do they have to fear?

You have asked the question before. Israel's superior military power, Israel's weapons of mass destruction, and the virtually unconditional US support for Israel are a few points I think should be considered.

However, I can't help but wonder about one thing: you basically ask people (Arab nations, the EU, the UN, or what you made out to be "world opinion") to condemn Hezbollah because of - what exactly? From reading your last couple of posts, I'm led to believe we should condemn Hezbollah because it is their stated goal to wipe Israel off the map.

Not for killing Israelis, not for launching rockets at Israel, not countering the Israeli invasion and attack. No. For stating that they want Israel disappear from the map.

Now, I find such statements more than merely distasteful, and I'd condemn their attacks on Israeli civilians anytime. In fact, I do. But the reason for doing so is that these attacks have innocent civilians as a target. Rockets launched at Israel, bombings, suicide attacks - all target civilians in a horrifying way.

And the victims and their families probably don't care whether the attack was a Hezbollah one (who is fighting for a Pan-Arabic theocratic nation) or one by Hamas (who are "just" fighting for a Palestinian nation).

However, it seems you are arguing that the reasoning behind indiscriminately targeting and killing civilians is somehow more important than the actual result. I find this very questionable. If ideology prevents us from seeing people suffering, chances are that the ideology is somehow faulty.

I believe that is the militant Arab agenda: to remove Israel from what they believe to be their lands. I state this when it is appropriate to what is being discussed.

Hezbollah's original raid on the Israeli patrol and rocket attack was probably for the reason they've admitted: to effect a prisoner exchange.

When it didn't work, and Israel responded militarily, the agenda then changed. Hezbollah knows full well it is no match for Israel militarily. So now they are fighting a propaganda war with the MSM as their willing accomplices. They don't have to win militarily. They only have to win in the court of world opinion. They just have to survive. Israel is forced to win to keep from losing.

I believe Hezbollah is deliberately firing their rockets from residential neighborhoods so that women and children will be killed in the return fire. I think they look for neighborhoods where all the civilians have not evacuated and set up their rocket launchers there in order to increase the chances of civilian casualties when Israel inevitably retaliates. Based on reports from eye witnesses coming out of Lebanon, it is more than possible that Hezbollah may even create a few casualties of its own if Israel doesn't hit any civilians.

And yet you still don't hear the world condemning Hezbollah. You don't hear an outcry for Hezbollah to cease and desist. No demand from the MSM or the Arab world or even the anti-Israel members here on A2K for Hezbollah to at least move its rocket launchers out of residential neighborhoods and stop firing their rockets indiscriminatley into Israeli residential neighborhoods.

The MSM eagerly takes the bait and 'incriminating pictures' Hezbollah provides them and feeds their overt or implied condemnation of Israel to the armchair quarterbacks who are more than willing to receive it and accept it as the way things are.

You may think it questionable that Hezbollah would use dead civilians for ammunition to sway world opinion and maybe even create a few dead civilians if they don't have enough? I don't think it is the least bit questionable or they wouldn't deliberately be putting those civilians in harm's way.

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gungasnake wrote:

Quote:

Don't f*** with Israel, and Israel will not **** with you.

That's as simple as it ever gets.

Don't f*** with Israel, and it will quietly get on with the business of ejecting the people, taking the water, and occupying the land it's not entitled to.

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McTag wrote:

Don't f*** with Israel, and it will quietly get on with the business of ejecting the people, taking the water, and occupying the land it's not entitled to.

And your evidence and documentation proving that statement is not ludicrous is ??????

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A side effect:

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Oil Spill at the Lebanese Coast

In the course of the conflict in the Middle East, the oil-fuelled power plant of Jieh, located directly on the coastline approximately 30 km south of Beirut was hit by bombs on July 13 and 15, 2006. Part of the storage tanks caught fire and were burning for several days. A large part of the fuel was spilled into the Mediterranean Sea as a result of the blast. The Lebanese ministry of environment estimated that approximately 30,000 tons of heavy fuel oil were emmitted into the sea.

Due to south-westerly winds and the sea currents, the oil spill was partly carried out to sea and partly dispersed along the coast of Lebanon. Until the beginning of August, 2006 the Lebanese coastline has been affected from the Damour region south of Beirut to the Syrian border in the North.

Following a request for help from the Lebanese Ministry of Environment, the EC Monitoring and Information Centre (MIC) of DG Environment triggered the International Charter 'Space and Major Disasters' in order to obtain information about the extent of the oil pollution in the coastal strip and, where possible, the size of the pollution.

The Center for Satellite Based Crisis Information (ZKI) of DLR took over the project management in this activation and is producing satellite analyses in the context of the European GMES Service Elements Risk-EOS and MarCoast.

Source

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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