ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

The US has defined and internationally recognized borders. Israel does not. It is impossible to even talk about controlling immigration until we know where Israel stops and Palestine begins.

I thought Palestine began where Jordan begins?

Foofie this appears to attribute a quote to me that I did not make.

Foofie wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:

Foofie, you're not special. You are human just like the rest of us. No more, no less.

But, with a different set of experiences that logic would dictate has molded my values. I am not standing in judgement of you; are you of me?

I suppose I'm judging what you write here, yes. I expect others to judge what I write as well. I don't accept as an argument in a debate claims of specialness that make one exempt from normal rules of reason.

Foxfyre wrote:

Yes I am an advocate for Israel though I have no power other than whatever influence my one voice might have. What Have I said that offended you? It was not my intent. Do I have to be a Jew to think Israel is being unfairly criticized and condemned? Do you not see the point I am making about the West Bank? Is it an offensive thing to offer an opinion on how Israel might strengthen its position?

If Arabs can live in Israel, then Jews should be able to live in the West Bank.

I do take your advocacy with a grain of salt, since I believe you have no "vested interest" in the survival of Israel. As history proves, based on the intractability (intractableness?) of anti-Semitism, a Jewish homeland is needed by world-wide Jewry. So, your Gentile Christian perspective is not based on perceived "need of a Jewish homeland," but on the "preference for a Jewish homeland." Quite different.

So, advocate all you want; just do not think all Jewish people will always agree with your well thought out political moves that might remind some of well thought out chess moves. It might be a "game" for the Arabs; for Israel it is survival.

You choose to define my position as based on "specialness." No, my position is based on the uniqueness of being Jewish, since Christians do not suffer from anti-Semitism. When we discuss anti-Christian history, I would defer to Christians having a vested interest in dealing with anti-Christian attitudes.

Those who have a vested interest in something do have a unique position, and a logical right, to pursue their vested interests, I believe.

Your interests in Israel are not based on having a vested interest, I believe, just a concern from a more universal position.

Fine; however, do not disenfranchise me from my vested interest position, nor trivialize it. Do not proselytize universalism to me, since as an American, a Republican and a conservative, I do not subscribe to universal concerns. I am most concerned with Americans. They are special in my opinion.

Does my admission that I am Gentile and Christian make my motives automatically suspect? Does it make me incapable of coherent thought and reasoning?

You're mixing apples and oranges.

The American Founders wrote a Constitution for the USA that was based on classical liberalism. They further, almost to a man, expressed that such principles would not work for other than a moral and virtuous people who respected God given unalienable rights. In the USA those principles worked pretty darn well for a long time; and, in a mostly classless society, has provided opportunity for prosperity and success known affectionately as "the American Dream" by which the poorest of the poor could hope to and did achieve it. It was never perfect because it was lived by imperfect people. But it was as good or better than anything else that has been tried in human history.

The militant Islamic world is opposed to all the freedoms that caused the American Dream to be a reality for millions. The militant Islamic world is opposed to the State of Israel and everything it stands for.

Yes, classical liberalism, embraced by a moral and virtuous people, I believe would achieve as close to Utopia as can be achieved on this Earth wherever it is practiced. But as long as it is considered a manisfestaton of 'the Great Satan' by some in the Arab world, Israel is justified and prudent to keep her borders closed.

Foxfyre wrote:

Does my admission that I am Gentile and Christian make my motives automatically suspect? Does it make me incapable of coherent thought and reasoning?

Your motives were not suspect. I just think you can discuss Israel from an enjoyable debating standpoint, if you choose. Any emotions do not reflect the SAME vested interest as Jews. That is correct, I believe. So, it is like a young draft eligible young man in the 1960's being concerned about the draft. Any women then concerned about the draft did not have the same vested interest in the draft. Does that analogy make sense to you.

Examples of antipathy to Jews and Judaism during ancient times are abundant. Statements exhibiting prejudice towards Jews and their religion can be found in the works of many pagan Greek and Roman writers.[23] There are examples of Greek rulers desecrating the Temple and banning Jewish religious practices, such as circumcision, Shabbat observance, study of Jewish religious books, etc.

Examples may also be found in anti-Jewish riots in Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE. Philo of Alexandria described an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died.

The Jewish diaspora on the Nile island Elephantine, which was founded by mercenaries, experienced the destruction of its temple in 410 BCE.[24]
Relationships between the Jewish people and the occupying Roman Empire were at first antagonistic and resulted in several rebellions. According to Suetonius, the emperor Tiberius expelled from Rome, Jews who had gone to live there. The 18th century English historian Edward Gibbon identified a more tolerant period beginning in about 160 CE.

According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors such as pogroms and conversions had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

When looking to Europe, we see an increase in pagan attitudes and a decrease of Judeo-Christian values. It is therefore not surprising that it is headed for more trouble and committed to an ongoing delegitimization of Israel. It is important for Jews to realize that it is for Judaism’’s stand on paganism and its unfaltering commitment to morality that they are hated and they should be proud of it. At least they should be hated for the right reasons.

https://www.cardozoschool.org/show_article.asp?article_id=463&cat_id=2&cat_name=Contemporary+Issues&parent_id=2&subcat_id=43&subcat_name=Society

Non sequitur and straw man that I neither said nor implied, OE.

If you don't know who the militant Palestinians/Arabs are who want the destruction of Israel are by now, I doubt there is anything I could say to convince you.

And if you can't separate the principle of Classical Liberalism from the situation that exists between Israel and Palestine, I think you are likely unteachable on that point.

You might have a point re all Palestinians not being terrorist--I agree--but perhaps you could explain to the Israelis how to tell the difference between the two so they'll know who to stop at the border and who they can safely let in?

But I'm confident that I've said what I needed to say to make my point and I'll let it go at that. Do have a great day.

U.S. presses Israel on two-state solution, settlements
By Matt Spetalnick and David Alexander Matt Spetalnick And David Alexander 2 hrs 2 mins ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) " The Obama administration stepped up pressure on Israel's new government on Tuesday to accept the goal of a Palestinian state and halt expansion of Jewish settlements on occupied land.

Vice President Joe Biden urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-leaning coalition to commit to a two-state solution, hours before President Barack Obama met Israeli President Shimon Peres to lay the groundwork for Netanyahu's visit later this month.

Since coming to power in March, Netanyahu has balked at recognizing the Palestinians' right to eventual statehood, an omission that has dismayed U.S., Arab and European officials. Peres said Israel would soon clarify its position.

"Israel has to work toward a two-state solution -- you're not going to like my saying this -- but not build more settlements, dismantle existing outposts and allow Palestinians freedom of movement," Biden told the leading U.S. pro-Israel lobbying group.

His challenge to Israel, in a speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, went further than remarks made by Obama in talks last month with Jordan's King Abdullah reiterating U.S. support for Palestinian statehood.

Biden also urged the Palestinians to "combat terror and incitement against Israel" and sought to reassure Israel's supporters that the administration's efforts to engage Iran diplomatically would not endanger the Jewish state's security.

Peres, a Nobel Peace laureate known for more dovish views than the conservative Netanyahu, said Israel should give Obama's new Iran strategy a chance.

Yes, I get the analogy, but I think you are discriminating against me on the belief that I am incapable of true empathy for the Jews. You would be very wrong about that. Perhaps not being Christian you cannot appreciate how deeply the roots of Judaism go into the very basis of a faith like mine or how much somebody like me is able to feel and how much somebody like me is able to know.

Do you see the state of Israel as the equivalent of Judaism? This is a political discussion about a country that has close ties with the US. This is not Christians giving Jews advice. If Israelis would rather not have advice from Americans maybe they would like to do without our weapons and our tax dollars in the form of military aid. Maybe we could do without their advice as well.

I (not speaking for Foxfyre) didn't have a say in the relationship that was formed between our two countries, but my taxes pay for it and our destinies seem to be intertwined because of it. For that reason, I have every right and indeed a duty to stay informed about what goes on there, as does Foxfyre and anyone else in this country who has the inclination. You are also American, are you not? So we have just as much right to offer suggestions to the ether as you do.