ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

When you talk about the "Israeli point of view," exactly who are you talking about? You represent all Israelis? Think again.

In fairness, Christianity does not have a pure history on that front. The crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch burnings, etc. were all sanctioned by factions of the Church and were essentially done 'in God's name' with impunity.

Through revelation and maturing of the Church, however, I would guess that of the 2+ billion Christians alive today, only a tiny handful, if that, would sanction killing 'in God's name' for any reason now. The same is true for Judaism which, over at least four millenia of recorded history, has some ugly episodes in there while modern Jews would in no way sanction the same events in the "name of JHWH" now . Christianity and Judaism, like almost all people everywhere, can be justifiably criticized for the uglier part of history while honest people will acknowledge when such history does not define the beliefs and practices of the modern versions.

Where hypocrisy comes in is that the anti-Israel and/or pro-Palestinian advocates rarely if ever condemn Islam for murder or attempted murder going on NOW in the name of Allah. While they condemn beliefs of the Christians and Jews and metaphorically spit on their Bible, many of the pro-Palestinian crowd defend Islam for simply being true to its beliefs and inists that we must be tolerant of their religion no matter how they use it. They do not condemn the Palestinian leadership and their recruited terrorists for repeated attempts to murder innocent Israelis while they do condemn the USA for supporting Israel and condemn Israel for fighting back.

I do not understand such logic. I acknowledge that it exists.

Foxie wrote:

It's not our problem that you choose to ignore our condemnation of "all" killings of innocent people.

I think all Israelis, including the Arab Israelis, would prefer that Israel not be expanded to include the WB and Gaza.

Not referring to you specifically at all, but many pro-Palestinean folks seem to yawn when the news, from the Middle East, is that some Jewish Israelis were murdered by Palestineans acting out their frustrations with their sad lives.

Unbelievable, but the speech below was written in 1899!

See http://www.Winston Churchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=137



Winston Churchill saw it coming



I am sending the attached short speech of Winston Churchill, delivered by him
in 1899 when he was a young soldier and journalist. It probably sets out the
current views of many but expressed in the wonderful Churchillian turn of phrase
and use of the English language, of which he was a past master. Sir Winston
Churchill was, without doubt, one of the greatest men of the late 19th and 20th
centuries. He was a brave young soldier, a brilliant journalist, an
extraordinary politician and statesman, a great war leader and Prime Minister,
to whom the Western world must be forever in his debt. He was a prophet in his
own time. He died on 24 January 1965, at the grand old age of 90 and, after a
lifetime of service to his country, was accorded a State funeral.



HERE IS THE SPEECH:



"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a
dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the
Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law
every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child,
a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the
faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the
religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger
retrograde force exists in the world .

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.
It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at
every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of
science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of
modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome. "

Sir Winston Churchill

(The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50,

London: Churchill saw it coming.

Indeed, many if not most of the pro-Palestinian crowd on this thread, including I believe C.I., have made the case that the Palestinians have no other recourse and are therefore justified in their 'feeble' attempts to kill the Israelis 'who have treated them so badly.' They present pretty much a chicken/egg perspective and I don't believe a single one of them has ever suggested or acknowledged or admitted the possibility that the Arabs/Palestinians started it, and if the Palestinians would just stop trying to kill Israelis, the Israelis would not be treating the Palestinians 'badly'.

To me that is such a simple concept, but it seems to be incomprehensible to many.

Foxie wrote:

You're a goddam liar. Show me where I said such a thing? What I said was if I lived in any country where they took away my land without compensation and took away my right to move around freely, I would probably also become a suicide bomber. Your attempts to put the onus on those of us who support the Palestinians are BS. None of us, I believe, ever said there were no other recourse. I want you to show me where I did? The "other recourse" are many including the cessation of apartheid, return of the stolen lands, and the freedom to move around in their "own" country - many of whom lived in Palestine/Israel for generations.

If I am not mistaken most of the real religious were against the war. The so called religious conseratives were all for it. I dont really get your point CI. When bombs and bullets are flying around your head many fall back on prayer to which ever god they believe in. That dosent necessarlly mean they believe in war.

And how is that any different from what I said? You admit that you are in sympathy with what the Palestinians do. And the 'recourse' you are offering is all on the Israeli side and you have offered no recourse for what the Palestinians can do.

So what do you suggest that the Palestinians can do other than try to kill Israelis?

No, you miss the whole point; it may relate to the Palestinians, but I'm speaking in general terms - it doesn't matter which country or culture. It could have also applied to the apartheid of South Africa.

Your myopia makes you ignorant of many things - including the situation in Israel.

You called me a liar. I may be myopic I was only pointing out that the only one telling lies was you and that you failed to address what I said in my post when you did that, and now you deny that you did it. Oh well. Carry on. I will pray for you.

What I'm about and what I will probably do in similar circumstances as the Palestinians has nothing to do with my support of anybody else's choice to become a suicide bomber. I have no control over their lives. That you imply I support Palestinians is a lie. I support all people to live with equity and peace. You are blinded by your personal hate and myopia, and your conclusions about me are way off the mark.

I can sympathize with the Palestinians, because of the way they must live in Israel, but that would also be true of anybody else in any country that cannot live freely and their lands taken away without legal recourse. That Israel dare call itself a democracy is also a big lie. That is the big picture you are unable to see.

I give up. I tried, but you are simply unable to read and understand what I said or you won't admit that you did. I accept that you think I am filled with hate and myopia however much of a lie that is.

I won't respond further so long as you continue in that way CI, but I will pray for you.

It's a "voluntary" military.

Foxie, Getting back to the original conflict:

CI is usually a raving idiot. He earlier said that Israel has killed hundreds of thousands of Pals, when the real number is about 10,000 since Israel was formed. He is always conflating Pals in and out of Israel in his arguments.

Advocate, I've asked you before to show proof where I stated such a thing.
This raving idiot is still waiting.

Well I'm leaving him alone but I am praying for him. I think he is honestly misreading what is being said and then puts his own spin on it. I think he then says really hateful things just to have something to say. Such people need pity so please try to be charitable.

That statement is dumber than dumb!

Bush chose to invade Iraq because he believed Saddam possessed WMD and was likely to use them to mass murder thousands. But Saddam did not possess any WMD when the USA invaded Iraq. So Bush was wrong! Shame on Bush!

My reason--and the reason of many others besides me--for supporting the USA's invasion of Iraq was identical to my reason--and the reason of many others besides me--for supporting the USA's invasion of Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda had invaded the USA twice, and attacked Americans outside of the USA many times. But neither the government of Iraq nor the government of Afghanistan were making any effort whatsoever to try and remove al-Qaeda from their respective countries. So we invaded both countries, among other reasons, to try and remove al-Qaeda from their respective countries, and thereby to reduce the chances of al_Qaeda attacking any Americans again.

I realize the Simpleton Religion does not allow any member of its congregation to accept those reasons. That congregation has for many years been mentally locked in a corral of their own making.