ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

@cicerone imposter,

I have never seen a rule stating that a line of some sort separates the article from the poster's personal comments. He could have easily clarified that the bottom remarks were his, but didn't. I think he set up his post to look like the material under the line were those of the reporters.

1 Reply

@FreeDuck,

Considering that there was a major attack on Gaza, the 1,400 dead Pals is miniscule, indicating the humane nature of the Israelis. Were things the other way around, there would have been hundreds of thousands dead.

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@FreeDuck,

It makes sense to me Freeduck because Israel did not want or ask for the war and I don't measure the value of a life according to how many were killed. I regret the loss of innocent Palestinian life as you do, but you don't seem to care that it is the Palestinians attempting to kill Israelis because they are Israelis, not because they attack Palestinians. The Israelis are attempting to stop the means of the Palestinians attacking Israeli citizens;' and, in my opinion, they have the moral imperative to do that. If the Palestinians were not attacking Israelis, the Israelis wouldn't be attacking anybody. The Israelis are not intentionally attacking Palestinian civilians and are doing whatever they reasonably can do to prevent civilian casualties. The Palestinians ARE intentionally attacking Israeli civilians and would kill them all if they could and are willing to sacrifice as many of their women and children as necessary to accomplish that.

THAT is the difference YOUR side refuses to admit or see. And until you are willing to see that injustice is being done to Israel by the Palestinians more than injustice is being done to the Palestinians by Israel--indeed any injustice being done to the Palestinians is mostly due to the words and actions of their own leadership--you won't win many, if any, converts and there will be no peace possible.

This argument put forth by some that because Israel is able to kill more Palestinians than the Palestinians can kill Israel, therefore Israel is the villain, is the biggest stretch of logic in this whole debate. YOUR side refuses to acknowledge that Israel would be killing NO Palestinians if the Palestinians were not attempting to kill Israelis, all Israelis. You simply cannot take that truth out of the equation.

Again my disclaimer: When I refer to Palestinians attempting to destroy the Israelis, I am referring to the Palestinian leadership and the terrorists they recruit to kill Israelis.

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@Foxfyre,

Your assumptions are asinine that we don't value the life of Jews. What you don't understand is we value "everybody's" life - equally; to live with the same legal status and freedoms.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I have never seen a rule stating that a line of some sort separates the article from the poster's personal comments. He could have easily clarified that the bottom remarks were his, but didn't. I think he set up his post to look like the material under the line were those of the reporters.

I put the line to separate the article I excerpted from my commentary which I put below the line.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue, I understood what you did, but people who wish to argue the trivia stuff will always argue about posting rules. Some times it's just common sense.

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All the Arabs have to do to be given back what was stolen by Israel from what the UN gave the Arabs, is grant Israel's right to exist in the territory the UN gave Israel, and simultaneously stop trying to steal more than what the UN gave the Arabs!

As long as the moderate Palestinian Arabs persisted in failing to stop those among them mass murdering Israelis, they had no one but themselves to blame for the full consequences of Israel exterminating those among them mass murdering Israelis, AND also murdering many moderates in the same neighborhoods.

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@InfraBlue,

I think Infra was being cute, allowing readers to think that his lies were part of the article, but preserving deniability relative his motive.

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@Advocate,

I don't think so; I have no ax to grind, and read his post as it should be. No problem.

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@ican711nm,

ican711nm wrote:

All the Arabs have to do to be given back what was stolen by Israel from what the UN gave the Arabs, is grant Israel's right to exist in the territory the UN gave Israel, and simultaneously stop trying to steal more than what the UN gave the Arabs!

I do not believe land can be "stolen. "

Stolen is a highly emotional word. I have never heard of police confiscating "stolen" land, or someone trying to sell "stolen" land. It is impossible to take land to another location (where a den of land thieves may be).

So, land is not stolen. It might be "appropriated." Does that not sound nicer?
Or, at least it does not have the emotional connotation of a thief wearing a mask, perhaps. Just one country appropriating land, like history teaches it has been done just about continually throughout history, and prehistory.

I am believing it is false to assert that Israel is an apartheid state, since previous apartheid states, I thought, had separate water fountains for the segregated groups. And, many Arabs in Israel, I thought do not have any interest in associating with Jewish Israelis, other than for the fact they may need to work for a Jewish Israeli. Perhaps, it would be more correct to refer to Israel as a Jewish State With Some Arab Mendicants?

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@Foofie,

From Wiki:

Quote:

Israel and the apartheid analogy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Allegations of Israeli apartheid)

The State of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has been likened by some to a system of apartheid, analogous to South Africa's treatment of non-whites during its apartheid era.[2] Those who use this analogy argue that a system of control including separate roads,[3] inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories constitutes an apartheid system.[4] Certain Israeli commentators and Palestinian rights advocates extend this analogy to include Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class.[5][6][7][8] Others use the analogy in relation to the special status that Israel accords to Jews, or to Orthodox Jews, without reference to Palestinians.[9]

Opponents of the usage argue that Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens,[10] and that the State of Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories is driven by security considerations, not anti-Arab racism.[11] They state that the analogy is a slanderous epithet, reflecting a double standard applied to Israel but not to neighbouring Arab countries.[12][13][14][15]

[edit] Analogy

Those who propose the analogy argue that the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law limits the citizenship rights of Arab citizens. They also point to differences in the political rights, voting and representation of the Palestinian population, the existences of differentiated national identification cards, difference in land tenure and access to infrastructure, transport, travel, and movement between Israelis and Palestinians.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

It makes sense to me Freeduck because Israel did not want or ask for the war and I don't measure the value of a life according to how many were killed.

Really? So the quantity is irrelevant to your level of concern? So the holocaust causes you roughly the same amount of concern as the attacks on the World Trade Center?

Quote:

I regret the loss of innocent Palestinian life as you do, but you don't seem to care that it is the Palestinians attempting to kill Israelis because they are Israelis, not because they attack Palestinians.

How can you presume to know the motive of every attack?

Quote:

The Israelis are attempting to stop the means of the Palestinians attacking Israeli citizens;' and, in my opinion, they have the moral imperative to do that. If the Palestinians were not attacking Israelis, the Israelis wouldn't be attacking anybody.

If I wanted people to stop attacking my citizens, the first thing I might do is to ask them to stop living on those peoples' lands.

Quote:

The Israelis are not intentionally attacking Palestinian civilians and are doing whatever they reasonably can do to prevent civilian casualties. The Palestinians ARE intentionally attacking Israeli civilians and would kill them all if they could and are willing to sacrifice as many of their women and children as necessary to accomplish that.

That's certainly your opinion. Unfortunately that's all it is. Perhaps the Palestinians are trying to protect their people from attacks by settlers?

Quote:

THAT is the difference YOUR side refuses to admit or see.

You keep talking about sides. What purpose does it serve this discussion?

Quote:

And until you are willing to see that injustice is being done to Israel by the Palestinians more than injustice is being done to the Palestinians by Israel--indeed any injustice being done to the Palestinians is mostly due to the words and actions of their own leadership--you won't win many, if any, converts and there will be no peace possible.

You are fond of the ultimatum, as is the country you defend. Until you stop blaming the victim and realize that it takes two to tango -- and that one party is leading while the other is more or less being dragged along -- you won't win any converts to your side either. I am perfectly willing to admit, and have, that violence has been terrible for the Palestinian cause. But it's absurd to impart, as you do, that kind of power to the Palestinians over Israeli destiny. Israel, with all its power, wants us to believe that it is helpless in this situation and that the Palestinians hold the power. And you parrot this ridiculous notion.

Quote:

This argument put forth by some that because Israel is able to kill more Palestinians than the Palestinians can kill Israel, therefore Israel is the villain, is the biggest stretch of logic in this whole debate.

Except that nobody actually argued that.

Quote:

YOUR side refuses to acknowledge that Israel would be killing NO Palestinians if the Palestinians were not attempting to kill Israelis, all Israelis. You simply cannot take that truth out of the equation.

There is no truth in that equation to take out. It's a completely simplistic view of the situation and flies in the face of facts presented on this very thread.

We've gone down this road many times, Foxfyre. As the conversation gets more and more specific and facts are presented over and over again, you retreat to your one and only axiom: that everything Israel does is in self-defense and is therefore justifiable. It's like a comfy blanket. Unfortunately, it has been shown to not be entirely true, or at least not so axiomatic as you would like. You are certainly correct in your assessment of the intransigence of this situation -- both in debate and on the ground.

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@cicerone imposter,

But Arabs in Israel are not being held there. Are many Israeli Arabs leaving for a better life in other countries? I think not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Also, you having travelled to Israel put money into the Israeli treasury. Why would you do this if you are so critical of Israel?

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@Foofie,

You are too ignorant to understand why people travel to different countries which has nothing to do with your assumptions about "putting money into the Israeli treasury."

You also say "Arabs in Israel are not being held there." Another ignorant statement; most have lived in Palestine for generations, and they have nowhere else to go.

That's what I used to hear in the US "why don't you go back to your own country" when I was young." Total ignorance; I'm third generation American. You are also "totally" ignorant. My two brothers and I served in the US military. My cousin served in the 442nd Infantry, 100th Battalion, and was killed in Italy.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You are too ignorant to understand why people travel to different countries which has nothing to do with your assumptions about "putting money into the Israeli treasury."

You also say "Arabs in Israel are not being held there." Another ignorant statement; most have lived in Palestine for generations, and they have nowhere else to go.

That's what I used to hear in the US "why don't you go back to your own country" when I was young." Total ignorance; I'm third generation American. You are also "totally" ignorant.

Your point above about having to deal with comments about where you should live when you were young may prove my point, since I wonder whether any Americans of Japanese descent would stay in the U.S., if it was an apartheid state (against Japanese)? I would think many Japanese Americans would leave, if this was an apartheid state against Japanese. So, bringing up bigoted comments from your youth has nothing to do with the point that people who suffer under an apartheid state do leave, if they can. The fact that Israeli Arabs stay in Israel tells me that they are living better in Israel than in any Arab state they might move to.

Also, you are aware that not that many American Jews vacation in Germany. Well, it is often because, many American Jews would not like one penny to go to Germany from their vacation dollar. So, with all your criticism of Israel, I still do not see the logic of putting money into the Israeli economy with your vacation dollar. How do you think your accomodations would have been in Israel if it was just an Arab state? No bagles and lox for breakfast, or would there be other less convenient accomodations???

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Your assumptions are asinine at best and ridiculous on top of it; we were put into concentration camps during WWII by the US government. The 442nd Infantry was the most decorated unit during WWII, and got more president awards than any unit.

Why would any Japanese-American go any place else? This is our home. Our family now consist of many cultures including Chinese, Polynesian, German, English, Italian, Dutch, Hispanic and black. There may be others I may not be aware of. We have made the best of what America has to offer; my older brother was an Administrative Judge in California, my younger brother is an ophthalmologist who served two terms in the state legislator, served as mayor of his town, and will be running for state office next year. His oldest daughter is also an opthamologist, second oldest has a PhD in special education, and the youngest son is an attorney. My younger sister is an RN; her two oldest are physicians, the third son is a dentist, and her youngest daughter has a PhD in chemistry married to a professor. Both our sons graduated college with honors; older son was summa cum laude, and younger son cum laude. Older son served 13 years in the US Air Force and made major before he resigned, and got his master at the University of Texas in Austin where he now works. Why would we want to move?

The reason many American Jews do not visit Germany is out of total ignorance.

That's their problem; don't blame anyone except their unfounded fear and ignorance. They even have an excellent holocaust museum in Berlin.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Your assumptions are asinine at best and ridiculous on top of it; we were put into concentration camps during WWII by the US government. The 442nd Infantry was the most decorated unit during WWII, and got more president awards than any unit.

Why would any Japanese-American go any place else? This is our home. Our family now consist of many cultures including Chinese, Polynesian, German, English, Italian, Dutch, Hispanic and black. There may be others I may not be aware of. We have made the best of what America has to offer; my older brother was an Administrative Judge in California, my younger brother is an ophthalmologist who served two terms in the state legislator, served as mayor of his town, and will be running for state office next year. His oldest daughter is also an opthamologist, second oldest has a PhD in special education, and the youngest son is an attorney. My younger sister is an RN; her two oldest are physicians, the third son is a dentist, and her youngest daughter has a PhD in chemistry married to a professor. Both our sons graduated college with honors; older son was summa cum laude, and younger son cum laude. Older son served 13 years in the US Air Force and made major before he resigned, and got his master at the University of Texas in Austin where he now works. Why would we want to move?

The reason many American Jews do not visit Germany is out of total ignorance.

That's their problem; don't blame anyone except their unfounded fear and ignorance. They even have an excellent holocaust museum in Berlin.

You are proving my point, in that America has allowed Japanese Americans to thrive. And since, in effect, you seem to claim Israel has not allowed Arab Israelis to thrive, then why are the Israeli Arabs staying in Israel? That, I believe, is because the Israeli Arabs mostly live better in Israel than in an Arab country. So much for Israel being bad to its Arab population!

And, if you can claim that American Jews have an "unfounded fear and ignorance" about Germany, and that is why they do not visit Germany, then as a Jew myself, I think you may really not understand American Jews, in that you do not think they have any right?/intelligence?/ability? to harbor some dislike for the German people/nation (for not putting them in concentration camps, like Japanese Americans, but for putting them into EXTERMINATION camps. There is a difference).

You might not subscribe to the thought that when people stop exterminating Jews, Jews should not just go back to the next generation of those people (like a good puppy, so to speak) as friends. It is, in my opinion, (not having anything to do with Germany) a lesson: hunt us, and you have lost a friend for a long time. Your relegating that reason to "unfounded fear and ignorance" comes off possibly as a flippant response to me, or possibly not making the effort to truly understand American Jews, and possibly just accepting a face-saving (for Gentiles) popular societal notion (that Jews do not harbor a collective dislike for Germany and its people).

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@Foofie,

I didn't even have to read your post to realize you have very real knowledge about how Palestinians have been treated and are now being treated as second class citizens. Please quit trying to compare our life in the US with those in Israel; it just makes you look more bigoted and mis/uninformed. Many Palestinians lost their homes, their jobs, ability to find jobs, and equal treatment by the Israeli government. You ever try to find a job/career by living in a fenced in ghetto?

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@cicerone imposter,

You neatly avoided answering my points in my last post. I guess you may not answer cogent argumentation.

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@Foofie,

Your arguments are not "cogent." They are bigoted and myopic. I didn't read your whole post after reading the first sentence; it's a waste of my time.

1 Reply

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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