ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

I'm thinking about this one.

Yes we all share in what our government is, and our failure to make our government into what we want it to be does not absolve us from our responsibility to do so. But most of us live in places where we can criticize our government and lobby for change with impunity.

I do blame the Israelis who would condone misconduct by Israeli soldiers and there will be such misconduct in time of war. But the decent Israelis and honorable soldiers are not responsible for that misconduct unless they condone it and do not deal with it. In Israel people can speak out against the actions of the soldier or the government with impunity because Israel respects human rights and freedoms.
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The Palestinians do not have such luxury. He or she who speaks out against their leadership and/or its activities is in imminent danger of being shot, tortured, or beheaded. So I have a tough time thinking that those innocent civilians who are forced to stay beside the rocket launchers or simply have nowhere else to go where they can survive are responsible.

Yes Walter, with all due respect I think so.

There would be no occupation of the Golan Heights, Gaza, or the West Bank except for the efforts of the Arab world to kill or drive the Israelis out. And the fact remains that every single time Israel has given back any of that land, it has been used as a base to continue attacks against Israel.

Do you hold Israelis responsible for the actions of their elected governments since the 1967 War?

Foxfyre, you are merely repeating the standard mantra.

You have not addressed the very reasonable questions I posed to you.

Your statement that , ".. every time Israel has given back any of that land ..." directly implies that Israel owns the land by right of conquest. I'm willing to accept that principle for purposes of further examining the question.

Do you also assert that in these occupied territories, which Israel owns by right of conquest, Israel has the right to subject the population of their territory to an extended (for decades) rule that provides no political rights whatever, and further denys them the basic human rights codified in the UN Charter and innumerable other international agreements and declarations?

Do you further assert (as it seems that you do) that the resistence of the Palestinian population to this continued oppression and violation of their human rights is sufficient cause for the continuation of the oppression that has arguably caused it?

Do you know beyond doubt that the cause of Palestinian resistence is hatred of Jews and the intent to kill them, and not merely hatred of the regime in Israel that treats them as lesser human beings than the Jews of Israel? Do you believe that a desire on the part of Palestinians for the destruction of that regime and perhaps its replacement by one that would treat both peoples equally is itself sufficient cause for the continued oppression of the Palestinains by the Israelis

I don't doubt that there are some Palestinians who would drive out all the Jews of Israel if they could. There are as well some rather rabid Zionists who would do the same to the Palestinians. Moreover it can be argued that they are achieving far more success in their efforts than are their Palestinian counterparts. Do you believe it is fair, reasonable, or even remotely accurate to characterize all Palestinians by their most rabid minority and, at the same time characterize all Israelis by their most reasonable sounding apologists and propagandists?

Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Again as long as Israel is painted the big bad oppressive monster and the Palestinians as the weak minority who have no recourse but to resist as best as they can, the picture is hugely distorted. But that is too often the way the national debate goes. In 2001, Colin Powell pulled our delegates who walked out of the 2001 international conference on racism that seemed mostly focused on the most hateful language directed at Israel while giving a pass to those committing far less questionable policy.

No, it does not clearly imply that Israel owns the land by right of conquest. I have never said that. I don't recall any of us on the pro-Israel side as ever saying that.

But it is common and sometimes necessary for the conqueror to occupy the enemy's land until the enemy stops being the enemy. Think Germany and Japan after WWII. Had Germany and/or Japan began resuming hostile activities upon withdrawal by the Allies, do you think the Allies would not have gone right back in?

It is this situation that we are dealing with on a much smaller scale in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Every time Israel has returned any of the occupied territories, those territories have become bases for renewed attacks on Israel. Not much incentive for Israel to be conciliatory is it?

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Do you also assert that in these occupied territories, which Israel owns by right of conquest, Israel has the right to subject the population of their territory to an extended (for decades) rule that provides no political rights whatever, and further denys them the basic human rights codified in the UN Charter and innumerable other international agreements and declarations?

See my previous answer. And again, unless you are willing to see the Israelis side of it too--how many suicide bombers, saboteurs, etc. are tolerable?--there is no ground for discussion. Israel has no responsibility to people determined to kill Israelis. There is no evidence that Israel is discriminatory or denies human rights to anybody who is not trying to kill Israelis. Until the pro-Palestinian side is willing to at least realistically discuss that, there is no solution.

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Do you further assert (as it seems that you do) that the resistence of the Palestinian population to this continued oppression and violation of their human rights is sufficient cause for the continuation of the oppression that has arguably caused it?

Yes. So long as the Palestinian population--or the Palestinian leaders--seem to make the extermination of Israel as their mission in life--Israel has the right to oppress them as much as Israel can. When the Palestinians lay down their arms and stop trying to kill any Israeli they can, then Israel has ZERO justification for oppressing any Palestinians. Should the Palestinians declare peace and demonstrate by their actions that they mean it, if Israel continued discrimination and oppression of Palestinians, you will see me solidly on the Palestinian side of the debate.

I don't know what anybody's motives are. Anybody is entitled to hate anybody he or she chooses and I frankly don't much care about that. I do care how people act out their hatred of others. The Arabs intended to exterminate the Israelis long before Israel had attacked or occupied anybody. The fact that the Arabs attempted to drive out Israel the year after the UN established it is what caused the first wave of Palestinian refugees. That wasn't Israel's action. The Palestinians could have set up their own state and lived in perfect peace with Israel from the beginning. They chose not to do that. That wasn't Israel's doing either. The Arabs who threaten Israel could have solved the Palestinian problem years ago by simply taking care of the Palestinians they accuse Israel of mistreating. They haven't done that either. In fact the Palestinian leadership steals the humanitarian supplies intended for the people and sells them for their own benefit. That isn't Israel's fault either.

I don't and never have characterized all Palestinians by their most rabid minority.

In my opinion, all the rest of Palestinian people have to do to get along with Israel is to stop trying to exterminate Israel. Unfortunately there is no way to distinguish a Palestinian terrorist from a farmer or sheep herder so the innocent are judged by the company they voluntarily or unvoluntarily keep.

And frankly, it is my opinion that so much hostility is directed at Israel, while so many others doing far worse are not singled out for such attention and condemnation, is because it is a land designated as a refuge for displaced Jews. Anti-Semitism is just as alive and well today as it has ever been