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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Forums: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestine, Politics
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I acknowledge that you both believe the Palestinians are the victims and Israel is the bad guys.


Your wrong. I (and as far as I noticed it's the same with Freeduck) never spoke of THE Palestinians and/or THE Israelis.

Some others generalise here. Due to ... whatever the reason might be.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:39 pm
It is interesting that Free Duck and Walter can find justification for the Pals slaughtering kids in pizza parlors and old women in bingo halls. This is totally sick. Israel has never targeting civilians.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:41 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, Where did FreeDuck and Walter justify Pals slaughtering kids? Please prove it by copy and paste from their post. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:41 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

As I said, the argument has become too circular to be useful. You and Walter seem more interested in splitting hairs on minutae rather than looking at obvious intent or any of the arguments actually made. So thanks for the exercise but I'll stop here unless one of would like to actually discuss the principles involved.

Which principles would you like to discuss? The principle of self-defense, human rights, justice, basic fairness... you pick. Where you asked me for evidence to back my opinion I provided. The points you offered were rebutted, though apparently not sufficiently for your liking. If the argument is circular it's because you've circled your wagons.

Quote:
I acknowledge that you both believe the Palestinians are the victims and Israel is the bad guys. Most pro-Palestinian folks do think that and pretty much disbelieve any evidence to the contrary.

I see, with your ability to read minds, I am at a disadvantage in this argument.

Quote:
I wish it was not that way because I believe if the Palestinian leadership stopped getting sympathy for their hostile acts, they might be better persuaded to stop them and then there could be a chance for peace.

It's the people who get the sympathy. The leadership, unfortunately, are about exactly what we could expect in such a situation. But the fact remains that Israel has the most power in this situation and the ability to make things less horrible, more so than the Palestinian people. I acknowledge that you refuse to accept that and will let nothing affect your favor for Israel. (See, two can build strawmen!)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:41 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

It is interesting that Free Duck and Walter can find justification for the Pals slaughtering kids in pizza parlors and old women in bingo halls. This is totally sick. Israel has never targeting civilians.



I know that some might call you names.

I won't. But only give a single example - in any language I write online and offline - where I ever wrote or said such.

You are an , indeed.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:44 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, this is patently absurd. It goes way beyond civil debate. I understand your point, but you are out of line here and you should apologize to both Free Duck and Walter.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Advocate, The school marm has spoken; comply!
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Again, in my opinion all the Palestinians have to do to achieve peace is to cease hostilities and agree to Israel's right to exist. And if Israel did not then appropriately accommodate that, you would see me squarely on the Palestinian side of the conflict. So far, since the Palestinian leadership has thus far rejected all offers of peaceful solution, has made no counter offers short of the extinction of Israel, has refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and has continued the hostilities, I am therefore persuaded that Israel holds the more justifiable position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

Quote:
Along with the principles, the two groups signed Letters of Mutual Recognition - the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, while the PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism as well as other violence, and its desire for the destruction of the Israeli state


Now, if you're talking about Hamas and not the Palestinian Authority, then maybe. But then you have to ask yourself how it was that Hamas came to power.
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:50 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

It is interesting that Free Duck and Walter can find justification for the Pals slaughtering kids in pizza parlors and old women in bingo halls.

Right. Walter and I were just saying how those kids in pizza parlors and old women in bingo halls had it coming to them. Yeah. That is exactly what we were saying.

0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:27 pm
@FreeDuck,
It doesn't matter how they came to power. It doesn't matter how they stay in power. It doesn't even matter who they are or why they do what they do. When you have rockets headed for your house, you really don't care who fired them. You just want them stopped. When you live in fear that you could be blown up any moment, you don't care why. You just don't want to be in that position.

I think the Israelis could care less how the Palestinians are governed. It is my impression that the Israelis just want to be left alone in peace to live their lives and if the Palestinians would allow them that, then there would be no problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

So long as there are those who intend to do violence to Israel and put the Palestinian people in the middle, the Palestinians will suffer and that is not Israel's fault.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
But you said:
Quote:
So far, since the Palestinian leadership has thus far rejected all offers of peaceful solution, has made no counter offers short of the extinction of Israel, has refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and has continued the hostilities, I am therefore persuaded that Israel holds the more justifiable position.

And I've shown you that's not true. Can you accept that Palestinian leadership has renounced violence and accepted Israel's right to exist?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:34 pm
@FreeDuck,
Nope. Because if they had done that, I do not believe there would be the ongoing conflict. Agreeing to a cease fire is not the same thing as offering Peace to Israel in a way that allows Israel to determine its own destiny. And continuing the hostilities is pretty convincing proof that no peace is intended. So I don't believe you have made a convincing case for your point of view about that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 03:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie wrote:
Quote:
"...in a way that allows Israel to determine its own destiny."


That's the problem in a nutshell; the way they are determining its own destiny is by expanding their settlements - with stolen property.

And you expect peace? Are you for real? Would you let another clan in our country take over your property at will without compensation? You will do nothing to get back your property? And since they demand peace on their conditions, you will freely give it?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 04:34 pm
@Advocate,

Quote:
It is interesting that ...... can find justification for the Pals slaughtering kids in pizza parlors and old women in bingo halls. This is totally sick. Israel has never targeting civilians.


Patently wrong, and especially so in the recent operation in the Gaza strip.
Details here: war crimes investigation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

On our BBC news tonight, reports that Israeli military prevented civilians fleeing a war zone, thus making targets of them and thereby increasing civilian fatalities.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 04:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
REALITY
Based on their behavior to date, a majority of the Palestinian Arabs want to destroy the Israeli people, and steal the land of Israel given to the Israelis by the UN. They think all of Palestine belongs to them. If that were not true, the Arabs would adopt the obvious position for retrieving lands given them by the UN, but stolen from them by Israel.

REQUIRED ACTION
To be given back what was stolen by Israel from what the UN gave the Arabs, the Arabs have to grant Israel's right to exist in the territory the UN gave Israel, and simultaneously stop trying to steal more than what the UN gave the Arabs!

ONE MORE TIME
Based on their behavior to date, a majority of the Palestinian Arabs want to destroy the Israeli people, and steal the land of Israel given to the Israelis by the UN. They think all of Palestine belongs to them. If that were not true, the Arabs would adopt this obvious position for retrieving lands given them by the UN, but stolen from them by Israel.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:34 pm
@FreeDuck,
Your statement reminds me of a few years back when Arafat made some conciliatory statments regarding Israel. A few weeks later, he was taped giving a speech in Arabic to a Pal group saying that his statements were only a ploy to gain advantage. That is what Israel is dealing with.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:19 pm
@Advocate,
Are you trying to tell us that the Israelis never commit the same sin?

It is politics, after all. We get a whole bunch of promises from our political candidates all the time.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Conversely, the Palestinians DO want to hurt, kill, or maim as many Israeli innocents as they can including babies and little children and celebrate when they do.


You say and repeat so often but there#s no prove of such.

You see, Foxfyre, I'd posted some days ago that Palestinian pupils and Israeli pupils are together in one school, even in one class in Cologne. And a couple are staying with the same guest families.

No one was killed, hurt or maimed (so far, before you question that).
It was, however, quite interesting to listen to them ...


Well, if I was getting fed by a German family, I would be too involved thinking about the delicious next meal, rather than anything else.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:54 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


On our BBC news tonight, reports that Israeli military prevented civilians fleeing a war zone, thus making targets of them and thereby increasing civilian fatalities.


It sounds like war.
 

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