ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

I would still like to discuss those comparisons

You may not be pro-Palestinian but I have seen you jump to their defense

or justify their behavior many times

while I don't recall you ever defending Israel in anything.

Probably just appearances though.

Again, if it was your kids and family who awakened terrified day after day to the sound of air raid sirens, who had to run for their lives to the bomb shelters, who could not conduct any kind of normal life for fear of being blown to smithereens, what would you consider appropriate by your government to deal with that?

Foxfyre wrote:

Again, if it was your kids and family who awakened terrified day after day to the sound of air raid sirens, who had to run for their lives to the bomb shelters, who could not conduct any kind of normal life for fear of being blown to smithereens, what would you consider appropriate by your government to deal with that?

Do you not see how this also directly, and moreso IMO, applies to the Palestinians? How can you recognize the terrifying experience of one and not acknowledge how much more terrifying it must be for the other?

I have and do acknowledge the other. The difference is that if the Palestinians were not attempting to hurt the Israelis, the Israelis would not be attacking the Palestinians.

All the Palestinians have to do to stop hostilities is stop trying to kill Israelis. The Israelis have no interest in killing Palestinians and do not attack them unless they are first attacked.

It is that simple fact that the pro-Palestinian people either cannot or will not acknowledge.

Nor so far will any pro-Palestinian person answer the question as to what they would consider appropriate response by their government if it was them and their family who were being attacked.

Foxfyre wrote:

I have and do acknowledge the other. The difference is that if the Palestinians were not attempting to hurt the Israelis, the Israelis would not be attacking the Palestinians.

That's not a difference at all. That's a perspective. Do you not think that the Palestinians believe that if the Israelis were not attempting (and succeeding) to kill the Palestinians that they would not be attacking the Israelis?

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All the Palestinians have to do to stop hostilities is stop trying to kill Israelis. The Israelis have no interest in killing Palestinians and do not attack them unless they are first attacked.

This just isn't true. When Sharon resumed the assassinations, apartment buildings were routinely destroyed in order to assassinate one resident in the building. Do you think the families of those killed in those kinds of attacks believed that the Israelis have no interest in killing Palestinians?

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It is that simple fact that the pro-Palestinian people either cannot or will not acknowledge.

I'm pro-people, Palestinian or otherwise. One of the tricks that Israel apologists use is to frequently flip between classifying the Palestinians as the people, Hamas, and Arabs in general so that you can impart blame on an entire population and justify immoral and inhuman actions. I see it all over your posts. But the fact is that we are still talking about people, most of whom are no threat to Israel, or wouldn't be if they were permitted any semblance of freedom and livelihood, and who have no power over their situation.

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Nor so far will any pro-Palestinian person answer the question as to what they would consider appropriate response by their government if it was them and their family who were being attacked.

If you think that the Israeli reaction to the Hamas rockets is justified based on the primal reaction to ones family being attacked then you have no space to condemn the Palestinians. The difference is that the Palestinians don't actually have the power to stop the Israeli onslaught. They can't protect themselves, their children, or their infrastructure.

As to what I would consider a proper response, I believe the government built several underground bunkers and an early warning system that has largely prevented casualties from the rockets. That is a suitable response. Another suitable response would be to make peace.

I believe the Palestinians want the Jews out of Israel and all of Israel for themselves.

The suicide bombings, kidnappings, and rocket attacks are launched regardless of what Israel does.

There is zero history of Israel attacking the Palestinians when the Palestinians did not attack them first.

What resident was to be assassinated and why? When you have Palestinians regularly entering crowded Israeli markets and busses filled with mothers and little kids to blow them up, is it unreasonable to go after those who perpetrate such things. Do you have any objective information on this that was not developed by pro-Palestinian sympathizers?

I wrote:

I'm pro-people, Palestinian or otherwise. One of the tricks that Israel apologists use is to frequently flip between classifying the Palestinians as the people, Hamas, and Arabs in general so that you can impart blame on an entire population and justify immoral and inhuman actions. I see it all over your posts. But the fact is that we are still talking about people, most of whom are no threat to Israel, or wouldn't be if they were permitted any semblance of freedom and livelihood, and who have no power over their situation.

This is utter nonsense. The Israelis have not declared holy war on the Palestinians but have taken measures to protect their own citizens. The Palestinian leadership has declared holy war on Israel.

Their leaders could damn well move their rocket launchers away from the civilian population.

It is they who intentionally draw Israeli fire to the civilians and this is 100% intentional to ensure civilian deaths that they can use for propaganda purposes. And they do. Israel either has to passively accept day after day of suicide bombers, kidnappings, and rocket attacks or go after the rocket launchers and ammo.

Why do you suppose the Palestinian leadership has not provided bunkers for its people?

So you would be willing for your children to live in fear of perpetual rocket attacks and not be able to live any kind of normal life indefinitely rather than have your government take whatever measures it needed to take to stop the rocket attacks. Fascinating.

I see that Israel has made peace with EVERYBODY willing to make peace. I have not seen any history of Israel initiating hostilities against anybody. I see that every effort Israel has made toward making peace with the Palestinians has been met with the Palestinians breaking the agreements and continuing their attempts to injure, maim, terrify, kill and destroy Israelis.

So what does Israel do to make peace? Give the Palestinian leadership what it demands which is the eradication of Israel from the face of the Earth? I suppose that would make peace all right.

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Foxie wrote:
There is zero history of Israel attacking the Palestinians when the Palestinians did not attack them first.

Free Duck wrote:
"First" is in the eye of the beholder.

Well I stand by my opinion and,

unless you can show with something other than pro-Palestinian propaganda that your opinion is better than my opinion, then we are back to the did too-did not circular argument and there is nothing to be gained by continuing it.

If it was my loved ones who were being blown up in the market or on busses or who were being kidnapped or murdered in their sleep, I would not want my government to remove a blockade that has effectively stopped almost all of that kind of violence.

If it was my loved ones who were not being allowed to live any kind of normal life because Islamic terrorists were regularly trying to maim or kill them, I would want my government to do whatever was necessary to stop that kind of activity.

If the only avenue of peace open to me was to hand over my country and autonomy to people who wanted me dead, I would not opt for such a 'peace'.

And that apparently is the fundamental difference between you and me.

Again at such time as the Palestinian leadership ceases and desists their terrorist activities and agrees to live in peace with Israel, and Israel does not accommodate that, then I will be squarely on the Palestinian side. Until that time, I have to believe that Israel has the better case to justify their policy and actions.

I stand on your opinion.

Why not meet my argument with overwhelming force? Do whatever it takes to protect your argument. After all, your argument just wants to kill my argument and my argument wants to push your argument into the sea. There can be no peace.

If the blockade was so successful in reducing violence then why was invasion required?

So you would support Hamas if you were a Palestinian, I guess. Or would you say, "my bad, I'm a Palestinian so I deserve to live like this because my terrible leaders refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist", whatever that is.

If the only avenue of peace open to me was to hand over my country and autonomy to people who wanted me dead, I would not opt for such a 'peace'.

I'm sure I've heard this before... yes, from Palestinians. But of course that isn't the only option open, which you know, but they probably don't.

At such time as the Palestinian leadership ceases and desists their terrorist activities and attempts to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government will find a more willing partner in war.

Conversely, the Palestinians DO want to hurt, kill, or maim as many Israeli innocents as they can including babies and little children and celebrate when they do.

We are not speaking of Palestinians in Cologne, Walter.

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If the blockade was so successful in reducing violence then why was invasion required?

The blockage was successful in reducing the kidnappings, suicide bombers, and booby traps. It was not successful in stopping the rockets. Therefore, invasion was necessary to stop the rockets. Surely you didn’t need me to explain that to you?

The Israelis do not wish to harm innocent Palestinians.

The Allies did not wish to harm innocent Germans or Italians or Japanese in WWII or the innocent people of North Vietnam or the innocent people of Iraq. But there is no way to conduct war or defend oneself against attacks of another without putting the innocent in harms way. That is why war is so obscene.

Conversely, the Palestinians DO want to hurt, kill, or maim as many Israeli innocents as they can including babies and little children and celebrate when they do. And they are not the least concerned about how many of their own innocents including babies and little children are killed because such provides such lovely pictures for them and their sympathizers to use to demonize the Israelis. They intentionally make sure that will happen if Israel fights back at all. Of course I can't prove it, but their behavior suggests that the stories are true that if Israel doesn't create enough bloody injuries or corpses, that the Palestinian leaders create them themselves.

We have tons of evidence to suggest that the Israelis will live in peace with anybody who is willing to be peaceful with the Israelis. Please provide what option for peace the Palestinians have offered the Israelis.

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At such time as the Palestinian leadership ceases and desists their terrorist activities and attempts to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government will find a more willing partner in war.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this.

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So you would support Hamas if you were a Palestinian, I guess. Or would you say, "my bad, I'm a Palestinian so I deserve to live like this because my terrible leaders refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist", whatever that is.

We are all subject to the consequences of what our leaders choose to do.

Foxfyre wrote:

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So you would support Hamas if you were a Palestinian, I guess. Or would you say, "my bad, I'm a Palestinian so I deserve to live like this because my terrible leaders refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist", whatever that is.

We are all subject to the consequences of what our leaders choose to do.

I want to come back to this because you kind of sidestepped it there. If you were a Palestinian, would you support your leaders when they committed violence against Israel as a reprisal for Israel's attacks on your people, or would you accept your fate as deserved?