ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

The Vatican? And how many "citizens" live there?

Yes, it is one of several.

With respect to the Vatican - in the event that it becomes involved in the expropriation of the territory of others; repeated wars; and struggles with an oppressed minority - I will make an issue of the implicit anachronism. Until then I will recognize that it isn't even a modest sized neighborhood in the city of Rome, and that there appear to be no divisive issues between it and its neighbors.

Signature line epitomizing stupidity of gargantuan proportions.

Worse, in my opinion, than the expropriation of the territory of others, I consider it promulgating the expropriation of religion of others, since it used to mandate that a non-Catholic, when marrying a Catholic, had to promise that children would be raised Catholic.

And, do not ask Italian Communists what they think of the Vatican, since the two groups do not get along, as I have heard. Are you thinking the entire world subscribes to the thinking that one learns in Parochial school? Only because of the success of the Catholic Church, in its world-wide flock, do few attempt to lock horns with it; however, the small number of Jews in the world are always available for a lesson from the majority.

Well, since the children in question presumably didn't yet exist, nothing was expropriated from anyone. If I am not mistaken many Orthodox (even some conservative) Jewish Rabbis advocated equivalent policies.



The Italian Communists, along with other affiliated parties from France, the former USSR and Poland and many others, are but bits of trash in the dustbin of history. The aethistic authoritarianism they practiced failed to even attain its own direct goals, and died as a result of its own internal contradictions. That they didn't like this or that is more of an endorsement than a criticism.

No, I don't think that the entire world thinks either as I do or as one is taught in Parochial schols. Indeed I believe that tolerance of other modes of thought and behavior is almost always desirable.

The Jews of the world have shown remarkable resiliance and endurance - for almost as long as there is an historical record of humanity. They are in no danger either from me or, as far as I can know, from the Catholic Church. However, even Jews are subject to the limitations of human nature. They can be pig-headed, intolerant, and self-absorbed - just like the rest of us. That Jews have been the victims of intolerance and oppression does not exempt them from the moral hazard of themselves becoming oppressive and intolerant. That is one of the cruel ironies of human history - none of us are exempt from it.

As of Feb 10, 2009...824
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html

Jews having "remarkable resiliance and endurance" is a non-sequitor to the discussion. They are trying to make a lemonade out of a lemon, in my opinion. The lemon being having a country in a part of the world where, after they left 2,000 years ago, another religion came into existence that is hostile to other faiths living in the region, in my opinion.

Regardless if humanity shows signs occasionally of pig-headedness, intolerance, and self-absorbtion, as you mentioned above, the whole point is that Israel has been under siege from day one. And, continues to be under siege. At least in the U.S., in urban environments, where two non-friendly demographic groups lived adjacent to each other, at some point the two groups learned to not talk to each other and still live in the same city. That will not happen here, due to one group wanting the other group to disappear.


I think the relationship between the U.S. and Israel has matured, in that both countries understand each other better today than in previous years. There might be Israelies that would want the tether to the U.S. cut, so Israel can up the ante in the region, so to speak, if it chose. For that reason, I do not see the U.S. cutting the tether, since the U.S. likes hegemony where it can get it, in my opinion.

I believe the problem with non-Jewish individuals analyzing the situation with Israel is that it might be analagous to non-Irish individuals analyzing the situation that existed in Northern Ireland during "the troubles." If one does not feel the emotional stake at hand, one might just use good logic. That can lead one astray from the thinking of the one that is immersed emotionally.

That being said, I think one should also give credence to the reality that in the U.S. there are more Christian Zionists, in number, that would back a triumphal Israel, than the same number amongst Jews in Israel and the U.S. combined. Since Christian Zionists (aka, Evangelicals) do vote, that might better be where your logical discourses are directed, rather than the Jews in Israel. They are just acting naturally, since Jews are no different from any other group in humanity. And, thinking that they will just be good students of logical discourse might be an exercise in futility.

Who's talking about the US's religious' extremists? Nice try to divert the discussion, but no cupie doll for you! Why not just bring in all the extremists of the world? The title of this thread is ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII? Just a reminder.

While I don't know if your numbers are accurate, I more or less agree with this paragraph, if nothing else.

Cicerone Imposter shows that he is indeed senile. He posted evidence( finally) but it does not show that the Palestinians are mistreated. Far from it. Note what the evidence shows:

Previous • Post: # 3,576,393 • Next cicerone imposter

1 Reply report Wed 18 Feb, 2009 11:33 am Re: Foxfyre (Post 3576385)
Foxie wrote: Quote:
Quote:

2. The Palestinians already there who chose to stay have been treated decently and enjoy full citizenship, freedom, and prosperity unknown to most of the Arabs in most of the remainder of the Middle East.

FreeDuck wrote:
Quote:
That is certainly your opinion.


Fury as MPs compare Palestinians' treatment to Nazi ghettos

By Marie Woolf Chief Political Correspondent

Friday, 20 June 2003

Two MPS caused outrage yesterday by comparing the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza to the Nazi segregation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto.

Two MPS caused outrage yesterday by comparing the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza to the Nazi segregation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto.

Oona King, Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, and Jenny Tonge, Liberal Democrat MP for Richmond Park, who visited Gaza last week with the charity Christian Aid, said the situation was getting worse as the area in which the Palestinians live gets smaller.

Ms King, whose mother is Jewish, said: "No government should be behaving like that - least of all a Jewish government. It's the same in nature but not extent. Palestinians are not being rounded up and put in gas chambers.

"What makes it similar is what happened to the Jewish people in that time, which was the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy - control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task. On top of that, building a wall around them, and that is precisely what the Israeli government is doing."

Ms Tonge said: "You are almost getting a situation like the Warsaw ghetto - people can't get in or out. They can't work, they can't sell anything. There is this gradual squeeze."

But Lord Janner, the Labour peer and Vice-President of the World Jewish Congress, said it was wrong to draw comparisons with the Nazi era. "Comparisons with the Warsaw ghetto is horrendously inappropriate and shows a sad lack of historical perspective," he said.

Yuri Dromi, of the Israel Democracy Institute, said: "Comparing someone in Gaza to the ghetto is really appalling. I think it is outrageous. The Warsaw ghetto was created to suffocate the Jews and to execute them."

The MPs' comments came as Tony Blair held talks in London with Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli finance minister, about the peace process and the state of Israel's economy.
endof quote:

1.TWO MP's compared the treatment of the Palestinians to theNaziGhetto in Warsaw. TWO. You can get TWO MP's in the British Parliament to say almost anything.

2. Anyone who has read any History of the ghetto in Warsaw knows that there is absolutely no comparison between the Ghetto in Warsaw and Gaza.

Note:

RESISTANCE MOVEMENT IN GHETTO
July 28, 1942

The Jewish Fighting Organization (Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa; ZOB) is established in the midst of the first wave of deportations from Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka. The ZOB, formed by members of Jewish youth organizations, calls for Jews to resist deportation. After the mass deportation ends in September, the ZOB will expand to include members of underground political organizations. It will establish contact with Polish resistance forces who provide training, armaments, and explosives.

FINAL PHASE OF DEPORTATIONS
September 6, 1942

The mass deportation from the Warsaw ghetto enters its final phase. The Germans allow 35,000 essential workers to remain in the ghetto area--approximately 10 percent of the pre-deportation population of about 350,000. With perhaps another 25,000 Jews who remain there illegally, only about 55,000-60,000 Jews remain in Warsaw at the end of the mass deportation that began on July 22.

DEPORTATIONS SPARK RESISTANCE ACTIONS
January 18, 1943

German officials renew deportations from the Warsaw ghetto. They encounter resistance from the Jewish Fighting Organization (Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa; ZOB). Although the early morning roundups surprise the ZOB organization, individuals take to the streets to resist the Germans. Other Jews in the ghetto retreat into prepared hiding places. In an act of retaliation the Germans will massacre 1,000 Jews on January 21, but will suspend further deportations. The Germans were able to deport or kill 5,000-6,500 Jews. Encouraged by the perceived results of resistance actions, Jews in the ghetto prepare for a full-scale revolt and begin to construct underground bunkers and tunnels. Soon after the renewal of deportations, SS chief Heinrich Himmler orders the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto and the transport of essential war-related factories, equipment, and Jewish forced labor to concentration and forced-labor camps in the Lublin district.

WARSAW GHETTO UPRISING
April 19, 1943

German forces, under the command of SS General Juergen Stroop, renew deportations and begin to destroy the Warsaw ghetto. The renewal of deportations is the signal for an armed uprising within the ghetto. Most people in the ghetto refuse to report for deportation. Many hide from the Germans in bunkers and shelters. Jewish fighters battle the Germans in the streets and from the hidden bunkers. After three days, German forces will begin burning the ghetto, building by building, to force Jews out of the hiding places. The Warsaw ghetto uprising continues for weeks.

GERMANS DESTROY GHETTO
May 16, 1943

After a month of fighting, the Germans blow up the Tlomacki Synagogue in Warsaw to signal the destruction of the ghetto and the end of the uprising. Many Jewish Fighting Organization members, including commander Mordecai Anielewicz, were killed when their headquarters bunker fell to the Germans on May 8. SS General Stroop reports after the destruction of the ghetto that 56,065 Jews were captured: some 5,000-6,000 were killed in the bombardment and fires; more than 7,000 were shot; almost 7,000 were deported to Treblinka; and most of those remaining were deported to other camps. Some resistance fighters succeed in escaping from the ghetto to join partisan groups in the forests around Warsaw. The Warsaw ghetto uprising was the largest Jewish uprising during the Holocaust, and the first urban uprising in German-occupied Europe.

POLISH UPRISING IN WARSAW
August 1, 1944

In Warsaw, soldiers of the underground Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa; AK) launch an uprising against the Germans. Some of the Jewish resistance fighters who had escaped from Warsaw following the Warsaw ghetto uprising participate in the revolt. The uprising lasts until October 2, 1944. In the weeks following the defeat of the uprising, German forces destroy those parts of Warsaw still standing. Soviet and Polish armed forces will attack Warsaw in January 1945 and, on January 17, liberate the city from German occupation.

****************************************************************

When Israel rounds up Palestinians to take them to the furnaces so that they can be exterminated like the Jews were by the Nazis, THEN a comparison can be made. Otherwise, Cicerone Imposter's senility is showing _AGAIN!!!

Reading this piece made me think of the anti-semites on this board.

Anti-Semitism Washing Over the World

A rising tide of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is washing over the world, and the U.S. We've seen demonstrations in dozens of world capitals in which not only Israel, but Jews in general are condemned---often to death. Indeed, a placard reading "Kill the Jews" would not be uncommon.

Perhaps most disturbing has been the anti-Israel and anti-Semitic virulence in Great Britain, whence we obtained this week's Hotline article. While the most egregious defamations have come from the U.K.'s exploding (and explosive) Muslim community, leftists, such as former London mayor Ken Livingstone, have contributed plenty of England's own homegrown brand of Jew-hatred.

Have no doubt: Despite all the Gaza-related rhetoric, this one-sided opposition to Israel is not primarily based on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Rather it is grounded in the presence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. And that opposition to the self-determination of the Jewish people is at its heart anti-Semitic.

Make no mistake: Israel is vulnerable to these unremitting criticisms from around the world, particularly from our English allies and of course from fellow Americans. This drumbeat of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism has profound effects on Israel and on us American Jews. In fact, Israel's very existence is threatened by it.

As we have seen, anti-Israel sentiment limits Israel's military options against its sworn and deadly enemies---Hizbollah, Hamas, and most critically against Iran. It limits Israel's trade and cultural options: Many countries do not trade with Israel or have only restricted trade, Israelis are banned in some academic circles in the U.K., for example, and an Israeli tennis player was recently not allowed to play in a major tournament in Dubai.

Unrelenting criticism of Israel also inhibits Jews' (and Jewish children's) identity with our homeland---imagine how difficult it is to be a proud Jew, let alone a proud Zionist, on many college campuses, like UC Berkeley or Columbia University (where my daughter is a student), or at Hampshire College, which just voted to divest all Israel-related investments.

But most importantly, this growing condemnation of Israel threatens Israel's very existence. Try to imagine how difficult it would be for Israel to survive without the support of the United States government. I believe it would be impossible for Israel to survive for even 20 years.

While popular opinion in much of world runs against Israel---and let's not even talk about the U.N.---Israel thankfully still enjoys the support of the majority of American people and its government. This is not the case in the U.K., where Jewish journalist Howard Jacobson lives. Jacobson's powerful piece below finds the anti-Israel crowd, appropriately, guilty of anti-Semitism. They won't like it, but they'll have trouble wriggling out of it. Jacobson's piece is longer than most that we feature, but it's superbly written and well worth your effort.

Jim Sinkinson

The American people continues to support Israel, because they are unawares of the apartheid practices of that country. Most Americans only listen to our politicians who continues their rhetoric in support for Israel without understanding the simple fact that Israel is not a democracy. Americans are too lazy to learn on their own that Zionism in Israel is still alive and well; taking Palestinian lands at will, and continuing to build and expand their settlements.

If I was treated in the same way Palestinians are treated in Israel, I may become a suicide bomber too, because I will never accept anyone taking away all my legal rights to my property, and freedom of movement.

I have been chastized before for makeing this comparison but I am going to do so again. What we did to the indians during the 1800's is exactly the same thing the Isralie's are doing to the pals. Its about stealing someone elses wealth and land and trying to justifying it by saying they dont know the proper way to use and maintain it. I cant spell hyprocacy but most will understand my meaning.

The assumptions implicit in both Advocate's assertions and in the article he quotes are both remarkable and worthy of emphasis. I will enumerate a few.

1. Anyone who, for any reason, opposes the now 40 year old Israeli quasi military occupation of the West Bank & Gaza and the accompanying Zionist settlements and ethnic cleansing of selected territories there is, of necessity "anti Semitic" - a hater of Jews.
2. The world wide revulsion at Israel's treatment of people in the occupied territories and Gaza is not, as claimed, based on the sufferings of the Palestinian people, but rather a symptom of a latent hatred of Jews and a desire to deprive them of any form of self-determination.
3. Without the continued support of the U.S. government Israel's "existence" would be seriously threatened, and it would not likely continue for more than 20 years. Here "existence" implies existence as an exclusively Jewish state with lesser rights for non-Jews. A pluralistic Israel that provided equal treatment and political rights for non Jews is implicitly taken to mean non-existence.

I think it is useful for most readers here to consider the obvious truth of these implicit (but usually not acknowledged) assumptions.

Taken together they mean that anyone who; observing the continuous discord, conflict and suffering in the former Palestine, and considering the continuing implaccable hostility of the Zionist and Palestinian zealots who continue to strongly influence both political entities; concludes that the only feasible solution offering a promise of peace and justice for all is a single state embracing both populations - is necessarily an anti Semite, a hater of Jews.

In addition they imply that the United States is obliged to continue its often blind support of Israel, no matter what action or outrages Israel undertakes, or the "existence" of Israel so defined will surely cease.

Today our government announced the committment of $900 million for the reconstruction of critical facilities (destroyed by the Israelis) in Gaza. More such appropriations will surely follow. Is it our fate to forever clean up after our increasingly sociopathic client state?

Pluralism in terms of ethnicity, religion and culture is increasingly the rule in the modern world. Despite this, Zionists like Advocate insist that if we fail to support the Zionist demand for an exclusively Jewish state that continuously expropriates the territory of its neighbors and has imposed an now more than 40 year regime of Apartheidt on them, then we are surely anti Semitic Jew haters. The deceptive illogic of his claim should be evident to all.

Abundantly so.

But there are still people who think they can continue to fool most of the people all the time. Go figure.

You are, I am sorry to say,absolutely incorrect about what we did to the indians in the 1800's . I don't know where you get your ideas--Some second rate movie?


I will,of course, give you a chance to defend your statement with evidence and documentation. If you do not, I must conclude that you don't know what you are talking about>

George ob1-- The Pro-Palestinians on this thread must now be counceled to watch Israel carefully. The limp wristed Labor forces in Israel have been defeated. Nethanyahu will be the new Prime Minister. He is going to kick Palestinian butt big time if they do not stop hurling missles at Israel.

Yes, he is very like the pipsqueak bully in the schoolyard with a big dumb friend who protects him. Unfortunately for Bibi, public opinion in the United States is changing.

There are many posters that I enjoy reading and posting too, both liberal and conseratives. But genoves-whatever name he is posting under is not one of them. He never gets his facts straight and refuses to acknowledge any "truths" but his own made up history and I will not discuss anything with him. He was one who helped to destroy the abuzz foram and he is trying to do the same here.