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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:47 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

There is no blindness on my part. What is say is the truth. I don't understand why you and others can't see it.


Okay, I'm waiting for evidence Germany has a very low tolerance of Nazis, much to the benefit of me.

Are you referring to my works with the "Central Archive for the Exploration of Jews in Germany"? That's an organisation run by the Central Council of Jews in Germany, and because a former member in that Council is a close friend, because she knows that I've done some researches, she brought us together.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 12:54 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Foxy, are you referring to me here?

I'm not

anti-Israel
a bigot
quoting ridiculous commentary

so you owe me an apology too.


I am referring to those for whom the shoe fits McTag. I try not to name people specifically and allow people to try on their own shoes. Certainly many people writing the most hateful articles re Israel are wearing the shoes of bigotry and hate, however. I have no problem with those who criticize Israel using honest data and including necessary mitigating and qualifying facts to allow people to evaluate the situation as it is rather than as they want others to see it.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 02:07 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

There is no blindness on my part. What is say is the truth.
word blindness excepted.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 02:08 pm
@Foxfyre,
Who fits into those shoes? That's about as difficult as admitting one is a racist.

You offer very little in the way of what you really mean - or how others perceive different issues of our lives.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
The majority vote in Israel ensures the survival of Israel as an ethnocentric state, to "survive" as such, it must control it's non-majority population through discriminatory measures,and must oppress outright the Palestinians who have a right to return, or be duly compensated, as afforded them by UN resolution 194, to the lands they were displaced from following the Nakba of 1948.

To rationalize your ridiculous assertion that "the Palestinians have already indicated in very clear terms that they have zero intention of ensuring that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected," you bring up Hezbollah.

Here's a hint for you, foxfyre, Hezbollah are a Lebanese political, paramilitary and terrorist organization. They are not Palestinians.

As regards Hamas and the PLO, it is disingenuous to apply their charter and their early objectives as an indication of what "the Palestinians indicate." The Palestinian people, by and large recognize Israel's existence. Most merely want recognition from Israel of their plight, and restitution for their displacement as a result of the creation of the state of Israel.

According to the New York Times in its March 26, 2007 article, For Many Palestinians, ‘Return’ Is Not a Goal by Hasan M. Fattah,


Quote:
in 2003, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in the West Bank city of Ramallah, in one of the most comprehensive surveys conducted on the subject, found that most Palestinians would be unlikely to move if they were granted the right of return.

"Once the Palestinian narrative is assured, then the tactical issue of where they will go becomes easy to approach," said Khalil Shikaki, who directs the center. "Everybody wants the emotional question addressed; everybody is happy with the likely modalities."

He added, "The novel aspect of the survey is, once we gave assurances about the right of return, the other issues became very resolvable,” meaning that many said they would take compensation and would not move."


As early as 2004 Ahmed Yassin one of the creators of Hamas had indicated an accommodation with Israel of decades or even "a hundred years" if Israel agreed to withdraw from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Israel responded by killing him, along with several bystanders, with rockets fired from a helicopter. http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/1519

Furthermore, as reported in your very own source, in February of 2006 Hamas had indicated a willingness to commit to a long-term ceasefire if Israel would withdraw from all land it occupied in 1967. In that same month:

Quote:
in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta,[43] Mashal again held out the possibility of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel recognized the 1949 armistice lines, withdrew from all Palestinian territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the "right of return". He reaffirmed this stance in a March 5, 2008 interview with Al Jazeera English,[73] citing Hamas's signing of the 2005 Cairo Declaration and the National Reconciliation Document, and denied any rejectionist stance.

After coming to power, some Hamas leaders reiterated earlier announcements that Hamas was giving up suicide attacks, and "offered a 10-year truce [with Israel] in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem."[74][75][76] Hamas also declared a unilateral ceasefire with Israel which, after Israeli air strikes in response to Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza, was formally renounced.[77]


As far as the PLO is concerned, you're really grasping at straws when you reach back to their activities from four decades ago to rationalize your ridiculous assertion that "the Palestinians have already indicated in very clear terms that they have zero intention of ensuring that all the citizens of Israel will be treated equally and fully protected." The PLO makes up the majority portion of the Palestinian Authority, the very same authority that supports the two state solution, and that was backed by the Bush Administration itself.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:58 pm
@InfraBlue,
IB, why do you even waste your electricity on that patent BS.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:06 am
@InfraBlue,
Agreed that I should have clarified that Hezbollah is Lebanese and pro-Syrian rather than Palestinian; however they use the Palestinians as a primary excuse for opposing Israel. They cannot prudently be excluded from the list.

Quote:
WAPO re Hezbollah--In 2004, the group bolstered its standing in the Arab world by obtaining the release of hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinians held in Israeli jails, something that the Palestinian authorities had never been able to achieve. Among Palestinian militants, Hezbollah is increasingly seen as a model for resisting Israeli occupation. The Palestinian militant group Hamas, an offshoot of the Sunni Islamic organization the Muslim Brotherhood, has set aside religious differences to support Hezbollah's anti-Israel tactics.


I'll tell you what though. I will not be likely feel the need to keep going back for decades to review the history yet again so much if the anti-Israel group will stop going back decades in order to accuse Israel of unlawfully mistreating and stealing land from the Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:15 am
Oh come on, Fox, you're saying that if the Israelis can just stiff the Palestinians with the same position they've been using since 1947, steadily refusing to deal with the real problems, that all of a sudden those problems become irrelevant? If you can just stonewall long enough, everything goes to "reset" and reboots.? You're saying Jews should just forget the Holocaust, because it was so long ago? The world doesn't work that way. The Israelis, for example, base their claim to the land on something that supposedly happened 3500 years or so ago, remember, with someone that no one has ever been able to prove conclusively even exists supposedly giving them the land. (Yeah, I agree that's one claim that's pretty dubious, make that totally dubious, but a lot of people take it totally seriously)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:22 am
@Advocate,
What a poor excuse for a human; you attack the messenger, and not the message.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 08:56 am
@MontereyJack,
I'm saying that history is useful to understand how we got from point A to point B and, if we are willing to study history as it was rather than as we wish it was, it can inform us and we can learn significant things from the experience of those who have gone before us. It is useful, for instance, to appreciate why the UN established a state of Israel and why the world community thought that necessary.

I'm saying that to judge the present by the past is often--perhaps usually--not constructive, especially when the present bears little or no resemblance to the past. Terrorist activities committed 60 or more years ago, for instance, should not condemn a present generation who neither condones nor commits terrorism. We can, however, condemn terrorism that is being condoned and committed by a present generation.

I'm saying that that if one side of a debate uses history to condemn the present, the other side should be able to use history to defend the present and vice versa. If one side is denied that privilege in a debate, then both sides should be denied that privilege.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 10:20 am
@Foxfyre,
History is the chronological record of events (as affecting a nation or people), based on a critical examination of source materials and usually presenting an explanation of their causes.

History is the past experience of society, and "using" this history - aka "historiography" - certainly has been a discussion during the last dozen of decades.

However, the sources ("history") - written, material, and traditional - are all the very same.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 02:04 pm
The past failures of the Palestinian Arabs to make this offer to the Israelis makes them responsible for all the harm the Israelis in their own self-defense have caused the Palestinian Arabs:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the Palestinian Arabs have to agree on is the following:

IF
the Israelis agree to return to the Palestinian Arabs all Palestinian land originally recommended by the UN to be governed by the Palestinian Arabs,

THEN
1. the Palestinian Arabs will cease and desist trying to steal Israel;
2. the Palestinian Arabs will convict and incarcerate any and all Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel that are proven to have perpetrated crimes against Israelis, including murder, attempted murder, and other physical harm to the Israelis or to their property.

If the Palestinian Arabs were to agree on that, then the Israelis would have little choice other than to also agree, because America would no longer help the Israelis if the Israelis failed to agree.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 02:18 pm
@ican711nm,
ican is so confused, he and his pals on this thread will never see the right and wrong of Israel.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI, please learn to read. I attacked the message. But I think you are a lying fool.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
We can, however, condemn terrorism that is being condoned and committed by a present generation.


Why then, do we never hear from you any condemnation of the terrorists actions committed by the USA, Foxfyre?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:27 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, This is a cut and paste from your post:

Quote:
Re: InfraBlue (Post 3551811)
IB, why do you even waste your electricity on that patent BS.


It's obvious who fails to understand the English language. LOL
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:38 pm
@JTT,
I have never condoned any form of terrorism committed by anybody anywhere JTT. But I suspect you and I have quite different opinions re what terrorism is.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:42 pm
@Advocate,
What, exactly, about that post is "patent BS"?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:49 pm
@ican711nm,
I agree the Israelis have made many serious errors. To help stop the Israelis making many more such errors, the Palestinian Arabs must correct their own failure to merely propose the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IF
the Israelis agree to return to the Palestinian Arabs all Palestinian land originally recommended by the UN to be governed by the Palestinian Arabs,

THEN
1. the Palestinian Arabs will cease and desist trying to steal Israel;
2. the Palestinian Arabs will convict and incarcerate any and all Palestinian Arabs not living in Israel that are proven to have perpetrated crimes against Israelis, including murder, attempted murder, and other physical harm to the Israelis or to their property.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Palestinian Arabs were to agree on that, then the Israelis would have little choice other than to also agree, because America would no longer help the Israelis if the Israelis failed to agree.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:03 pm
@ican711nm,
And I would be first in line to condemn an Israel who failed to agree to those terms.

Instead however, we see cease fire after cease fire negotiated and brief periods of peace allowing Israel's enemies time to regroup and rearm and then renew attacks against Israelis. It isn't difficult to forgive Israel for not immediately trusting those who have been attempting to destroy Israel for decades.

Israel has nothing to gain by keeping the hostilities going, however, and I am convinced that should the Palestinians make a genuine peace with Israel that Israel will then become a peaceful and good neighbor to the Palestinians. The Palestinians would have to scrap their manifestos and goals in order to make peace with Israel and so far have been unwilling to do that.
 

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