@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
If I had thought the point 'salient' I would have included it. As it was not necessary to make the point however, I didn't include it. In my opinion, what I did include made the point without corrupting the history in any way. That is my prerogative.
Walter sees it differently. That is his prerogative.
Sure. But it's not nit-picking for him to point that out.
I think this 'history based on opinion' outlook of yours is somewhat harmful to arriving to a real understanding of a situation. Sometimes people are wrong, and it's not really a matter of opinion or viewpoint; it's a matter of factual accuracy.
Cycloptichorn
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter sees it differently. That is his prerogative.
"Anal", as you called it. I'm just a cultist from the 70's, a misguided result from European universities.
@Foxfyre,
Foxfire wrote:The Jews begged those "Palestinians" who fled to stay and stand with them at that time. And now the Jews are being condemned for not allowing those who wanted to exterminate the Jews to return as citizens.
That is the exact opposite of what I read, viz., that the Palestinians were encouraged to flee at that time and then the promised right of return was denied them.
@JTT,
JTT wrote:Yeah, how bloody presumptuous is that, actually wanting invaders out of your country.
As of 1947, just prior to the UN's two-state recommendation for Palestine, Palestine belonged to neither the Palestinian Arabs or to the Palestinian Jews. It belonged to Britain. After the UN recommendation, the British said Palestine no longer belonged to them. The UN recommended that some of it belonged to the Palestinian Arabs and some of it belonged to the Palestinian Jews.
The Palestinian Arabs in 1948 rejected the two-state recommendation by the UN. The Palestinian Jews in 1948 accepted the two-state recommendation by the UN. Some Palestinian Arabs believe their loss of Palestine in 1099 AD was only temporary and it must eventually be returned to them. Some Jews believe that their loss of Palestine in 40 BC was only temporary and it must eventually be returned to them. Both groups are nuts.
In no event does all of Palestine belong to either group now. Either both groups accept the UN's two-state solution, or one group will eventually resolve this insane dispute by mass murdering and conquering the other.
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter sees it differently. That is his prerogative.
"Anal", as you called it. I'm just a cultist from the 70's, a misguided result from European universities.
Yup anal--somebody who chooses not to see the forest in favor of focusing on the. . . . .
What do you think? Is an 'anal' metaphor more offensive that accusing somebody of being dishonest?
As for being a 'cultist' of any kind, you said that. I didn't.
@Foxfyre,
You see, Foxfyre, when it comes to history I'm perhaps really a bit nickpicking.
Yes, I think it's dishonest to question a system ("nation building") which didn't start before the 17th century.
While the couple of decades of pro-Roman Jewish certainly can be neglected when giving a broader picture - to brush 200 years of Christian rule under the carpet is dishonest in my opinion.
@Walter Hinteler,
Well then we'll just have to disagree then Walter.
Meanwhile here is a really good pictorial essay from the viewpoint of an Arab living in Lebanon who went to Israel to interview both Jewish and Arab Israelis re discrimination, racial tensions, etc. Nothing is sugar coated, and he seems to be telling it pretty much as it is.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2006/05/the-palestinians-of-1948.php
And here is the viewpoint of a Palestinian Israeli and her perspective of some of the history and dynamics of why Palestinians fled from Israel.
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/elshazly.htm
Sen. Hutchison Issues a Statement on Israel
WASHINGTON, DC - U.S. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Texas’ senior Senator, issued a statement today on the conflict between Israel and the terrorist group Hamas:
“There should be no question that Israel, like all sovereign nations, has a right and a duty to defend its citizens against the unprovoked rocket attacks launched by Hamas terrorists from Gaza.
“In 2005, as a conciliatory gesture, the Israelis pulled their military forces out of Gaza. Palestinian terrorists have since responded to that gesture by launching thousands of rockets from their safe havens in Gaza into Israel. These rocket attacks can have only one purpose " to strike terror in the hearts of their victims. These Iranian supplied rockets are not guided or precision weapons. No one launching them knows where they will ultimately land and once launched, they might just as easily land on a school house or a hospital as on a military target. The goal of these rockets, simply put, is to kill and terrorize all Israelis " be they civilian or military. No nation can or should tolerate that type of indiscriminate violence directed against their citizens.
“Unfortunately, Hamas leaders have demonstrated time and again that they have little interest in peaceful coexistence with the State of Israel. Indeed, their goal is, and remains, the complete destruction of Israel as a nation. To halt the rocket attacks, Israel has pursued an aggressive military campaign to once and for all destroy the terrorists’ capability to launch rockets and terrorize innocent civilians in Israel and to punish those responsible. Israel’s decision to respond with a ground invasion of Gaza, rather than retaliatory air attacks, is in fact proportional in its respect for innocent civilian life as a number of Hamas rocket launch sites and terror strongholds are located among neighborhoods and school districts. A ground invasion was the only way Israel could mitigate the loss of civilian life.
“I deeply regret the tragic loss of human life in Gaza and in Israel but there is no moral equivalency here, as some have suggested. Israel is doing what any nation must do " responding to terrorist aggression and protecting their citizens.”
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, thank you for those links to articles about what Israeli Arabs think. Everyone here should read both the articles at the links you provided. One paragraph in particular really got my attention.
Quote:
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/elshazly.htm
Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick in the Arab society. They are kept in poverty and turmoil because it suits the leadership of the Arab world to keep them in this position. What better way to do it than to take away every last means of dignity and power, shift the attention of the average Arab towards the perfect target- Jews.
@ican711nm,
Do you really believe that article is authentic given its source?
@FreeDuck,
I think the article is probably authentic, because what it says is what I have also obtained from other sources.
@Walter Hinteler,
<sound of wooshing wind - people look up> ["It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's...Foofie]
Walter, could we agree that if the world ever decides to do the expedient thing in pandering to the Arabs, and take the Jews out of the Holy Land, they should not bless the U.S. or Britain with their presence, but allow the Germans and Poles to be blessed with their "return." Not that the respective governments would not welcome them. I do believe that it would be fitting irony for them to return to the two countries where many plain citizens sort of had a distaste for them prior to WWII.
The colloquial phrase in American English is "just desserts," I believe.
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Foxfire wrote:The Jews begged those "Palestinians" who fled to stay and stand with them at that time. And now the Jews are being condemned for not allowing those who wanted to exterminate the Jews to return as citizens.
That is the exact opposite of what I read, viz., that the Palestinians were encouraged to flee at that time and then the promised right of return was denied them.
I read, and heard that the Arab armies told the Palestineans to leave (via radio), so that the Arab armies would not be impeded in their lightening defeat of Israel. And, that in two weeks the Arabs could return to live in the Jews' homes. What a deal! And, the Israelis told them to stay.
I do not doubt that there are other versions circulating, since the left has published much propaganda.
Foxy, Foofie and friends should listen to this speech in Parliament by Gerald Kaufman, a man who was friends with Golda Meir and Moshe Dyan and is a long-term friend of Israel.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&eurl=http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message707068/pg1
@McTag,
McT, Good speech in the UK Parliament; many supporters of Israel do not know what they are talking about. They only see and hear what they want to hear, and not the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis. Who amongst us would live sheepishly while our property and freedoms are taken away?
I have visited Israel, and have seen first hand the many control points that restricts the movement of the Palestinians freely in Israel. A young woman we spoke with in Jerusalem told us how Israel restricts her freedom even though her family has lived in Israel/Palestine for many generations. Some people will continue to be blind to the plight of the Palestinians, and believe Israel is a "democracy."
@Foofie,
They're welcome. Just so long as they dont carve out a chunk of land here and call it Israel.
@Steve 41oo,
The Arabs in Israel and in Gaza will all be welcome when the Arabs in Gaza stop permitting some of them to shoot at Israel.
Neither the Arabs in Palestine or the Jews in Palestine own
all of Palestine. The Jews in Palestine lost their ownership of
all of Palestine in 40 BC. The Arabs in Palestine lost their ownership of
all of Palestine in 1099 AD. The British relinguished their ownership of
all of Palestine to the UN in 1947. The UN relinguished their ownership of
all of Palestine in 1948.
Some of Palestine was given by the UN to the Arabs in Palestine;
some of Palestine was given by the UN to the Jews in Palestine.
@ican711nm,
Ican, why write this pointless tosh?
