ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Advocate wrote:

The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory.

That sentence makes more sense if you turn it the other way round:

As a result of their territory being stolen, the Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. We are still living with the consequences today.

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Advocate wrote:

The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory. Moreover, the Arabs continued to attack Israel and Israelis, causing the latter to erect checkpoints and fences.

What are the "major" wars to which you refer? I count three - 1948, 1956, 1967. The fact is that Israel started two of them - 1956 and 1967. In both 1948 and 1967 both sides were readying themselves for a war that each knew was coming soon. The Arabs started the fighting in 1948: the Israelis did it in 1967.

We have been over this before and you know the truth of the matter. Why do you persist in the lies?

Advocate wrote:

It is sad to look back and see what the Arabs gave up due to their intransigence vis-a-vis coming to terms with Israel.

I don't think they have given up anything. None of us knows for sure what terms might be acceptable to Israel, however, the evidence strongly suggests the Palestinians have not yet been shrunk to the insignificance and impotence that Israel will ultimately require.

The tragic element here for Israel is that the Palestinians are slowly becoming relatively stronger and more numerous.

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George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Pals have paid, and are still paying, a big price for their unwillingness to sit down with Israel and negotiate a fair peace agreement.

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Advocate wrote:

George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Pals have paid, and are still paying, a big price for their unwillingness to sit down with Israel and negotiate a fair peace agreement.

George is correct that Israel did the pre-emptive strike in 1967 and thus can be said by some to have started it, but he is incorrect if he claims that this was not a valid self defense move on the part of Israel.

It would not be correct to say that Israel would have been a threat to Egypt et al. Egypt had thrown the UN whatever out of the Sinai and had put a large army including I think something like a 1000 tanks near the Israel border. So Israel made the pre-emptive strike against primarily Egypts air force and Jordan and Syria than attacked. So tiny little Israel acquired Eastern Jerusalam, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Gaza in six days time and nobody has presumed a direct attack on Israel since.

But Israel didn't start it.

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Fox, you are incorrect. Egypt blocked Israel's southern port before Israel attacked the forces in the Sinai. A blockade is an act of war.

Further, Israel called upon Jordan and Syria to stay out of the war. But Egypt falsely told those countries that Egypt was winning, at which point they attacked Israel.

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McTag wrote:

Advocate wrote:
The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory.

That sentence makes more sense if you turn it the other way round:

As a result of their territory being stolen, the Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. We are still living with the consequences today.

Malarkey!

The Palestinian territory you, McTag, claim was stolen from the Arabs, was stolen by the Arabs in the 7th century, and was in turn stolen from the Arabs in the 11th century. Since then lots of folks have stolen that same territory. However, that territory never again was stolen back by the Arabs. The British who were the last to steal it, gave it to the UN in the 20th century (i.e., 1947) to figure out who should be given it next. The UN decided to give some of it back to the Arabs and some of it back to the Jews.

The Arabs tried in 1948 to steal that part previously given to the Jews by the UN, and failed at the price of the Jews stealing some of that previously given to the Arabs by the UN. Subsequently, the Arabs have tried to steal that and more back. The Arabs have failed each time and had more of that territory given them by the UN stolen from them as a result.

Duh, Arabs, stop trying to steal territory from the Jews before you don't have any left of your own to be stolen. It's simple! All you Arabs have to do to get my support to be given back what was stolen from what the UN gave you, is grant Israel's right to exit in the territory the UN gave Israel. And, Arabs, stop trying to steal it instead!

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Advocate wrote:

Fox, you are incorrect. Egypt blocked Israel's southern port before Israel attacked the forces in the Sinai. A blockade is an act of war.

Further, Israel called upon Jordan and Syria to stay out of the war. But Egypt falsely told those countries that Egypt was winning, at which point they attacked Israel.

I did not say that Egypt didn't start it. I did say that Israel struck a pre-emptive blow on Egypt's air force; in effect fired the first shot. I didn't even suggest that such pre-emptive strike was without justification. Jordan had a treaty with Egypt that made it mandatory that they join in once Israel attacked Egypt's airforce. I don't recall if Syria was part of that pact or not.

At any rate, within six days all three aggressors had tucked tail and run leaving Israel with some extra real estate that has affected the geography of that area ever since.

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Advocate, "George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth." Unless you listen to what Rabin and Begin said about it. Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle." "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

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Still another unsupported quote, BF? No link? Nothing to back it up?

Here's Israel's side from their perspective

Quote:

MYTH

"Israel's military strike in 1967 was unprovoked."

FACT

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Blockading another country's port is indisputably an act of war. Any country capable of reversing this would do so.

I guess Blue feels that Egypt was sending its troops on a picnic in the Sinai, with no interest in attacking Israel. If you believe that, I have a great bridge to sell you.

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Foxfyre, the fact that you need a link to 2 such famous quotes shows how little you know or are willing to admit about the 1967 war.
link

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blueflame1 wrote:

Foxfyre, the fact that you need a link to 2 such famous quotes shows how little you know or are willing to admit about the 1967 war.
link

Ah, the infamous 100% anti-Israel site judicial-inc. I should have known. Note at the bottom of page you linked is this:

Quote:

Israel Is The World's Most Barbaric Country

These clowns attacked without provocation, killed 30,000, and captured the Golan Heights, Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza , and the Sinai. They occupy stolen territory. Their actions are totally despicable.

Meanwhile, perhaps you would like to read some actually substantiated quotes of the rhetoric leading up to the 1967 war:

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/crucial_quotes.htm

(P.S. the body count for all combatants in this conflict was I think less than 8,000 including Israeli dead; certainly nowhere close to 30,000. Do you suppose the site is manufacturing most of their other 'facts' as well?)

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Foxfyre, it aint that you're ignorant. It's that you think denial is enough to sidestep history. It aint for honest people. Rabin was quoted in Le Monde, on February 29, 1968. Black and white and read all over. And Begin's quote is from a speech he gave on August 8, 1982. Your insinuation about
my quoting 2 Israeli leaders with nothing to back it up is typical of your Swift Boat style of argument. Childish and foolish.

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Fox, thanks for the super site. It says it all.

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Advocate, haha. "I guess Blue feels that Egypt was sending its troops on a picnic in the Sinai, with no interest in attacking Israel. If you believe that, I have a great bridge to sell you." That's childish and foolish. It aint what Blue thinks but what Rabin And Begin said that matters. Their words aint good enough for you. But then you seem to have your own agenda that will deny even confessions by the major players. "Begin and Rabin Admit To A Fraud"

What Yitzak Rabin and Menachem Begin carried out, was nothing but total aggression by Israel. Both said publicly that Israel knew Nasser was not planning to attack, and that Israel wanted to gain more territory.

Rabin was quoted in Le Monde, on February 29, 1968, as saying, "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai in May [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."

On August 8, 1982, Prime Minister Begin made a speech saying, "In June, 1967, we again had a choice. the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (New York Times, August 21, 1982).

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link

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Foxfyre wrote:

Here's Israel's side from their perspective

Quote:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/1967war.html

Just a minor correction:

Quote:

The Jewish Virtual Library is a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise

Quote:

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Here's Israel's side from their perspective

Quote:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/1967war.html

Just a minor correction:

Quote:
The Jewish Virtual Library is a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise

Quote:

No argument there. But the chronology as given by the JVL is from Israel's pespective just the same, and I think it would be a bit dishonest to present it as anything else. That does not mean that it is wrong or incorrect just because it is from Israel's point of view.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But the chronology as given by the JVL is from Israel's pespective just the same, and I think it would be a bit dishonest to present it as anything else.

Might be.

I think, however, it's not correct to present the view of an US-American nonprofit, nonpartisan organisation as that of ("official") Israel.

And that doesn't mean that I think this Israelian report to be the one and only truth neither.

Quote:

War was imminent The IDF called in its reserves, and Prime Minister Eshkol transferred the defense portfolio to Moshe Dayan. A historical first was achieved when the Herut party joined the newly formed national unity government.

On June 6, the Six Day War broke out, as the IDF went to war against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

But it is indeed an Israelian perspective.

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And re the USS Liberty--Blueflame keeps coming up with new red herrings each time one of his inflammatory bogus website sources is shot down--it seems strange that a premeditated attack intended to kill everybody on board would have been called off before the job was finished, such cease fire immediately followed by Israel's apology and offer of assistance to the damaged vessel.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3DD1038F932A0575BC0A96E948260

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