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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 07:48 am
Advocate wrote:
The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory.


That sentence makes more sense if you turn it the other way round:

As a result of their territory being stolen, the Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. We are still living with the consequences today.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 08:56 am
Advocate wrote:
The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory. Moreover, the Arabs continued to attack Israel and Israelis, causing the latter to erect checkpoints and fences.
What are the "major" wars to which you refer? I count three - 1948, 1956, 1967. The fact is that Israel started two of them - 1956 and 1967. In both 1948 and 1967 both sides were readying themselves for a war that each knew was coming soon. The Arabs started the fighting in 1948: the Israelis did it in 1967.

We have been over this before and you know the truth of the matter. Why do you persist in the lies?

Advocate wrote:
It is sad to look back and see what the Arabs gave up due to their intransigence vis-a-vis coming to terms with Israel.
I don't think they have given up anything. None of us knows for sure what terms might be acceptable to Israel, however, the evidence strongly suggests the Palestinians have not yet been shrunk to the insignificance and impotence that Israel will ultimately require.

The tragic element here for Israel is that the Palestinians are slowly becoming relatively stronger and more numerous.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 09:28 am
George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Pals have paid, and are still paying, a big price for their unwillingness to sit down with Israel and negotiate a fair peace agreement.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 09:40 am
Advocate wrote:
George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Pals have paid, and are still paying, a big price for their unwillingness to sit down with Israel and negotiate a fair peace agreement.


George is correct that Israel did the pre-emptive strike in 1967 and thus can be said by some to have started it, but he is incorrect if he claims that this was not a valid self defense move on the part of Israel.

It would not be correct to say that Israel would have been a threat to Egypt et al. Egypt had thrown the UN whatever out of the Sinai and had put a large army including I think something like a 1000 tanks near the Israel border. So Israel made the pre-emptive strike against primarily Egypts air force and Jordan and Syria than attacked. So tiny little Israel acquired Eastern Jerusalam, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Gaza in six days time and nobody has presumed a direct attack on Israel since.

But Israel didn't start it.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 11:17 am
Fox, you are incorrect. Egypt blocked Israel's southern port before Israel attacked the forces in the Sinai. A blockade is an act of war.

Further, Israel called upon Jordan and Syria to stay out of the war. But Egypt falsely told those countries that Egypt was winning, at which point they attacked Israel.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:10 pm
McTag wrote:
Advocate wrote:
The Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. As a result, they forfeited territory.


That sentence makes more sense if you turn it the other way round:

As a result of their territory being stolen, the Arabs started and lost two major wars with Israel. We are still living with the consequences today.

Malarkey!

The Palestinian territory you, McTag, claim was stolen from the Arabs, was stolen by the Arabs in the 7th century, and was in turn stolen from the Arabs in the 11th century. Since then lots of folks have stolen that same territory. However, that territory never again was stolen back by the Arabs. The British who were the last to steal it, gave it to the UN in the 20th century (i.e., 1947) to figure out who should be given it next. The UN decided to give some of it back to the Arabs and some of it back to the Jews.

The Arabs tried in 1948 to steal that part previously given to the Jews by the UN, and failed at the price of the Jews stealing some of that previously given to the Arabs by the UN. Subsequently, the Arabs have tried to steal that and more back. The Arabs have failed each time and had more of that territory given them by the UN stolen from them as a result.

Duh, Arabs, stop trying to steal territory from the Jews before you don't have any left of your own to be stolen. It's simple! All you Arabs have to do to get my support to be given back what was stolen from what the UN gave you, is grant Israel's right to exit in the territory the UN gave Israel. And, Arabs, stop trying to steal it instead!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:24 pm
Advocate wrote:
Fox, you are incorrect. Egypt blocked Israel's southern port before Israel attacked the forces in the Sinai. A blockade is an act of war.

Further, Israel called upon Jordan and Syria to stay out of the war. But Egypt falsely told those countries that Egypt was winning, at which point they attacked Israel.


I did not say that Egypt didn't start it. I did say that Israel struck a pre-emptive blow on Egypt's air force; in effect fired the first shot. I didn't even suggest that such pre-emptive strike was without justification. Jordan had a treaty with Egypt that made it mandatory that they join in once Israel attacked Egypt's airforce. I don't recall if Syria was part of that pact or not.

At any rate, within six days all three aggressors had tucked tail and run leaving Israel with some extra real estate that has affected the geography of that area ever since.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:25 pm
Advocate, "George, you continue with the nonsense that Israel started the '67 war. Nothing could be further from the truth." Unless you listen to what Rabin and Begin said about it. Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle." "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:40 pm
Still another unsupported quote, BF? No link? Nothing to back it up?

Here's Israel's side from their perspective

Quote:
MYTH

"Israel's military strike in 1967 was unprovoked."

FACT

A combination of bellicose Arab rhetoric, threatening behavior and, ultimately, an act of war left Israel no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage.

While Nasser continued to make speeches threatening war, Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched.5

Meanwhile, Syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six Syrian MiGs. Shortly thereafter, the Soviet Union ?- which had been providing military and economic aid to both Syria and Egypt ?- gave Damascus information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt.

On May 15, Israel's Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):

As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.6

An enthusiastic echo was heard on May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:

Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.7

On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. This blockade cut off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran. The following day, President Johnson declared the blockade illegal and tried, unsuccessfully, to organize an international flotilla to test it.

Nasser was fully aware of the pressure he was exerting to force Israel's hand. The day after the blockade was set up, he said defiantly: "The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war."8

Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily. "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27.9The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."10

King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:

The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.11

President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."12 On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

The Arab rhetoric was matched by the mobilization of Arab forces. Approximately 250,000 troops (nearly half in Sinai), more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel.13

By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel's best option was to strike first. On June 5, the order was given to attack Egypt.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/1967war.html
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:48 pm
Blockading another country's port is indisputably an act of war. Any country capable of reversing this would do so.

I guess Blue feels that Egypt was sending its troops on a picnic in the Sinai, with no interest in attacking Israel. If you believe that, I have a great bridge to sell you.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:54 pm
Foxfyre, the fact that you need a link to 2 such famous quotes shows how little you know or are willing to admit about the 1967 war.
link
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 12:58 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Foxfyre, the fact that you need a link to 2 such famous quotes shows how little you know or are willing to admit about the 1967 war.
link


Ah, the infamous 100% anti-Israel site judicial-inc. I should have known. Note at the bottom of page you linked is this:

Quote:
Israel Is The World's Most Barbaric Country

These clowns attacked without provocation, killed 30,000, and captured the Golan Heights, Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza , and the Sinai. They occupy stolen territory. Their actions are totally despicable.


Meanwhile, perhaps you would like to read some actually substantiated quotes of the rhetoric leading up to the 1967 war:

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/crucial_quotes.htm

(P.S. the body count for all combatants in this conflict was I think less than 8,000 including Israeli dead; certainly nowhere close to 30,000. Do you suppose the site is manufacturing most of their other 'facts' as well?)
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:18 pm
Foxfyre, it aint that you're ignorant. It's that you think denial is enough to sidestep history. It aint for honest people. Rabin was quoted in Le Monde, on February 29, 1968. Black and white and read all over. And Begin's quote is from a speech he gave on August 8, 1982. Your insinuation about
my quoting 2 Israeli leaders with nothing to back it up is typical of your Swift Boat style of argument. Childish and foolish.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:19 pm
Fox, thanks for the super site. It says it all.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:24 pm
Advocate, haha. "I guess Blue feels that Egypt was sending its troops on a picnic in the Sinai, with no interest in attacking Israel. If you believe that, I have a great bridge to sell you." That's childish and foolish. It aint what Blue thinks but what Rabin And Begin said that matters. Their words aint good enough for you. But then you seem to have your own agenda that will deny even confessions by the major players. "Begin and Rabin Admit To A Fraud"

What Yitzak Rabin and Menachem Begin carried out, was nothing but total aggression by Israel. Both said publicly that Israel knew Nasser was not planning to attack, and that Israel wanted to gain more territory.

Rabin was quoted in Le Monde, on February 29, 1968, as saying, "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai in May [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."


On August 8, 1982, Prime Minister Begin made a speech saying, "In June, 1967, we again had a choice. the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (New York Times, August 21, 1982).
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:28 pm
Anybody dare to talk about the other part of the six day war? "Six days of war, 40 years of secrecy: USS Liberty"

Was the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty deliberate? The US is morally bound to find out.

FORTY years ago in a quiet corner of the Mediterranean off the Sinai Desert, an extraordinary attack was launched by Israeli jet fighters and torpedo boats on the USS Liberty.

It was the fourth day of the Six-Day War. The large intelligence-gathering ship was in international waters, proudly flying the US flag and clearly marked as the USS Liberty. Conditions were calm and clear, but by day's end 34 American sailors were killed and 172 injured.

The USS Liberty struggled back to Malta with several gaping holes and a US Navy Court of Inquiry team on board. The president of this inquiry was Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, and Captain Ward Boston jnr was counsel assisting, but under Pentagon orders the court was not permitted to travel to Israel to complete its investigations.

There is still a fierce debate over the question of whether the attack by Israeli forces was deliberate, allegedly mounted to disrupt US intelligence collection and provide cover for the day-five invasion of Syria and capture of the Golan Heights. Against this serious accusation, a book by retired US judge A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident, contends that the attack was undertaken by Israeli jet fighters and Israeli torpedo boats, but was accidental.

As Donald Rumsfeld says, "stuff happens in war", and as Shimon Peres said about the cluster bombs into Southern Lebanon last year, "mistakes occur in war". However, as a reaction to the Cristol book, many key US intelligence officials and Boston himself have broken their strict orders under the Official Secrets Act to speak up and detail the chilling truth.

Boston signed an affidavit saying: "The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack … was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first-hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate."

The affidavit is readily available through Google, along with key statements debunking some official transcripts released to fudge the truth that involved helicopter pilots who arrived on the scene well after the first attacks.

This statement by Stephen Forslund (US Air Force intelligence analyst) is clear enough: "The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target, which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller. The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace."

The reader can research the subject and reach a conclusion on deliberate or accidental. For my part, I now believe the evidence all points to it being a deliberate attack by Israel.

The two key issues arising from this are still relevant today. If Israel did deliberately attack the most powerful nation on Earth, it knows it can do so and get away with murder. Worse still, US military personnel now know that if the truth is politically inconvenient, they and their legacy are expendable.

The White House and Pentagon of the day, more so the US Congress, still need to get to the bottom of this saga.

Why is this important 40 years on? Because Israel needs to know that it will be exposed and held accountable for its actions and incidents, likewise Syria and the Palestinians, the latter of whom might contend the Liberty saga was one factor in delaying the creation of the nation state of Palestine.

We now know it is from this period that Israel cheerfully began building its own atomic bomb. We know Israel will push over the edge whenever it suits, because recent history shows that it can get away with such actions. Remember the thousands of cluster bombs that went into southern Lebanon last August after the ceasefire had been agreed but before its actual commencement?

But it is the US that has most to answer for in not dealing honestly with the attack on the USS Liberty, in turning its back on the families of the victims.

The Pentagon has ugly spin form ?- just ask the family of Pat Tillman killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan but initially reported otherwise. In relation to the 34 sailors killed by Israeli forces in 1967, it is corrosive in the extreme that the Pentagon did not fiercely fight to uncover the truth.

To the thousands of US and Allied forces, this is the really ugly part ?- the cause of their death will be airbrushed out if it is politically inconvenient for it to be revealed.

There are further allegations that US defence secretary of the time Robert McNamara and president Lyndon Johnson ordered US fighters, launched from a nearby US aircraft carrier, to turn back and not go to the defence of the USS Liberty. Again, the world is entitled to know whether this is true or not.

It is a sad fact that on June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli jet fighters and Israeli torpedo boats; it is a sad fact that 34 US sailors were killed in the attack. It is true that Israel has paid some reparations to the families involved, and full marks to Israel in this regard. It remains for the real truth to come out.

A former attorney-general of Israel, Michael Ben-Yair, once made a famous observation: "The Six-Day War was forced upon us, the seventh day continues to this day and is our choice."

Tim Fischer is a former deputy prime minister of Australia and a former army officer.
link
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Here's Israel's side from their perspective



Just a minor correction:
Quote:
The Jewish Virtual Library is a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise


Quote:
The AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE) was established in 1993 as a nonprofit 501(c)(3), nonpartisan organization to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance ?- the values our nations share.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 02:04 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Here's Israel's side from their perspective



Just a minor correction:
Quote:
The Jewish Virtual Library is a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise


Quote:
The AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE) was established in 1993 as a nonprofit 501(c)(3), nonpartisan organization to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance ?- the values our nations share.


No argument there. But the chronology as given by the JVL is from Israel's pespective just the same, and I think it would be a bit dishonest to present it as anything else. That does not mean that it is wrong or incorrect just because it is from Israel's point of view.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 02:10 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But the chronology as given by the JVL is from Israel's pespective just the same, and I think it would be a bit dishonest to present it as anything else.


Might be.

I think, however, it's not correct to present the view of an US-American nonprofit, nonpartisan organisation as that of ("official") Israel.

And that doesn't mean that I think this Israelian report to be the one and only truth neither.

Quote:
War was imminent The IDF called in its reserves, and Prime Minister Eshkol transferred the defense portfolio to Moshe Dayan. A historical first was achieved when the Herut party joined the newly formed national unity government.

On June 6, the Six Day War broke out, as the IDF went to war against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.


But it is indeed an Israelian perspective.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 02:21 pm
And re the USS Liberty--Blueflame keeps coming up with new red herrings each time one of his inflammatory bogus website sources is shot down--it seems strange that a premeditated attack intended to kill everybody on board would have been called off before the job was finished, such cease fire immediately followed by Israel's apology and offer of assistance to the damaged vessel.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3DD1038F932A0575BC0A96E948260
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