If what you say was true, Blue, though I do think you believe what you are saying, the million plus Palestinians who have accepted Israel's right to exist, have even accepted full citizenship in Israel, representation on the Knesset, and are free to go about and live their lives as they please within Israel would be among those who are oppressed. They aren't.
Given that track record and acceptance of peaceful Arabs within their midst, there is simply no case to be made that other Palestinians who recognized Israel's right to exist, stopped bombing and shelling Israelis, and pledged cooperative and a peaceful coexistence would experience any oppression of any kind from the Israelis.
One thing is for sure: so long as the Palestinian leadership professes its committment to the extermination of Israel and continues to support efforts to kill as many Israeli men, women, and children as it can, we will probably never find out. All concessions made so far have come from the Israeli side and they have been rewarded every single time with more terrorist bombings and rocket attacks.
The Israelis may be tough. But they aren't stupid.
You may conclude what you like. The piece reinforces my view that the Pals feel separate from Israel, owing it no allegiance. Moreover, they are basically a detriment to their country.
Malarkey!
Ican, during WWII, do you think it would have been a nice thing to exempt from military service German Americans?
Foxfyre wrote:
If what you say was true, Blue, though I do think you believe what you are saying, the million plus Palestinians who have accepted Israel's right to exist, have even accepted full citizenship in Israel, representation on the Knesset, and are free to go about and live their lives as they please within Israel would be among those who are oppressed. They aren't.
Given that track record and acceptance of peaceful Arabs within their midst, there is simply no case to be made that other Palestinians who recognized Israel's right to exist, stopped bombing and shelling Israelis, and pledged cooperative and a peaceful coexistence would experience any oppression of any kind from the Israelis.
One thing is for sure: so long as the Palestinian leadership professes its committment to the extermination of Israel and continues to support efforts to kill as many Israeli men, women, and children as it can, we will probably never find out. All concessions made so far have come from the Israeli side and they have been rewarded every single time with more terrorist bombings and rocket attacks.
The Israelis may be tough. But they aren't stupid.
Yeah, the Arab Israelis have citizenship, and representation in parliament. They are not, as you put it, free to go about and live their lives as they please within Israel. Israel is segregated, and, your assertion not withstanding, the Arabs there are not allowed to live as or where, for that matter, they please, as illustrated by this Washington Post article from a few months ago, For Israel's Arab Citizens, Isolation and Exclusion; and this The Independent UK article from just this month about Israel's mistreatment of its Bedouin population: Israel is 'deserting' Bedouin Arabs.
But this discrimination has been well documented by the Israeli government at least since the beginning of this decade when it commissioned an inquiry into the events during the Al Aqsa Intifada. You tend to focus on the failures of the Arab leadership in Israel, and the actions of the rioters during the intifada, but the commission also treated Israel's systematic discrimination of its Arab population:
24. The Arab sector: The committee determined that this is the most sensitive and important domestic issue facing Israel today. As such, it requires the personal involvement and leadership of the prime minister. The committee determined that the issue has been neglected for many years, and demanded that immediate, medium-term, and long-term action be taken. The committee determined that action must be focused on giving true equality to the country's Arab citizens. Israel's Arab citizens have the right to equality because of the essence of the State of Israel as a democracy, and because it is a basic right of every citizen. The state must work to wipe out the stain of discrimination against its Arab citizens, in its various forms and expressions.
In this context, the state must initiate, develop, and operate programs emphasizing budgets that will close gaps in education, housing, industrial development, employment, and services. Special attention should be paid to the living conditions and the hardships of the Bedouin. The committee determined that the state, through its most senior officials, must work to close these gaps quickly and energetically, determining clear and tangible goals and definite timetables. In this connection, the committee added that all government agencies must find the means to allow Arab citizens to express their culture and identity in public life in a
respectable manner.
25. In the matter of land, the committee determined that it is the state's obligation to act toward its Arab citizens with equality and justice with regard to land use. The Arab sector has legitimate needs that stem from natural growth, among other things. The state must allocate land to this sector according to the same egalitarian principles it uses with other sectors. The committee added that suitable planning should be carried out as soon as possible to prevent illegal construction caused by lack of existing town planning that make it difficult to obtain a building permit. In this regard, the committee noted that a real response must be made by the government to the issue of the destruction of houses and the expropriation of land. On the other hand, wherever a way cannot be found to legalize existing construction, the law must be enforced unstintingly.
26. The committee noted the need for a reform of police systems with regard to the Arab sector. The police is not conceived as a service provider by the Arab population, but as a hostile element serving a hostile government. There is a need to expand community police services in order to improve service to this sector. The committee determined that, in light of budgetary difficulties in the police, budgets should be diverted from other areas to this area.
27. The committee noted the importance of inculcating moderate and balanced norms of behavior among all ranks of police personnel with regard to the Arab sector. It is important to work to uproot prejudice, which exists even among officers who are experienced and admired. The police must learn to realize that the Arab sector in Israel is not the enemy and must not be treated as such.
28. The committee determined that the police must raise the level of dialogue between its officers and the leaders of the Arab community. It must be in continuous contact with leaders at all levels in order to identify flash points for violence at an early stage and to determine agreed-upon means that will permit expression of protest without endangering the public and with minimum disruption of public order. The committee noted that during the period of its work it appeared that real progress had been made in this area.
29. The committee added that the police must demonstrate systematic and egalitarian enforcement of the law, whether in regard to the illegal call to use violence or in other illegal phenomena.
The official summation of the Or Commission report; The Arab sector and its leadership
You like to blame Israel's discrimination of its Arab population on the latter's resistance to the state, but you have the causal relationship backwards: the Arabs in Palestine have been fighting against their oppression by the Zionists since their sponsor nation, Britain, endeavored to impose a Jewish homeland in Palestine at the expense of the Arab population there.
Sweeping hyperbolic generalizations notwithstanding, the sure thing is that the Palestinians, however inept and self-defeating the actions of some of their leadership may be, will always fight against their oppression at the hands of the Zionist state.
The Israelis may be tough, but in light of their oppression of the Palestinian people in order to maintain an ethnocentric state, they sure are stupid.
Oh for heavens sake Blue educate yourself. More than 90% of the Arabs are homeowners in Israel as compared to something over 70% of the Jews. Any segregation of the Arabs is by their own choosing and most of the poverty is due to their own policies of managing small mostly Arab communities within Israel and that would include those Bedoins.
If the Arabs truly felt they were being mistreated in Israel, all they have to do is move into an Arab controlled area. Strange that few if any ever choose to do that.
Yes, Israel keeps policies that ensure a Jewish majority both in population and in their government, and there has been considerable criticism of that on this thread. Those of us who are realistic re the hostility of Israel's Arab neighbors toward Israel, however, see that as a prudent and necessary policy if Israel is to survive. And Israel is necessary for the Jews to have one tiny plot of land where they can determine their own way of life and destiny, something they have not had the power to determine for themselves since roughly 67 BC (this is the date I use - others put it at 70 or 71 BC) when Pompei marched into Jerusalem and claimed it for the Roman Empire.
Whether there should be a Jewish state is certainly up for discussion and debate. But don't think the Jews are being as awful to their Arab citizens as what you seem to wish to believe.
Foxfyre wrote:Oh for heavens sake Blue educate yourself. More than 90% of the Arabs are homeowners in Israel as compared to something over 70% of the Jews. Any segregation of the Arabs is by their own choosing and most of the poverty is due to their own policies of managing small mostly Arab communities within Israel and that would include those Bedoins.
If the Arabs truly felt they were being mistreated in Israel, all they have to do is move into an Arab controlled area. Strange that few if any ever choose to do that.
Yes, Israel keeps policies that ensure a Jewish majority both in population and in their government, and there has been considerable criticism of that on this thread. Those of us who are realistic re the hostility of Israel's Arab neighbors toward Israel, however, see that as a prudent and necessary policy if Israel is to survive. And Israel is necessary for the Jews to have one tiny plot of land where they can determine their own way of life and destiny, something they have not had the power to determine for themselves since roughly 67 BC (this is the date I use - others put it at 70 or 71 BC) when Pompei marched into Jerusalem and claimed it for the Roman Empire.
Whether there should be a Jewish state is certainly up for discussion and debate. But don't think the Jews are being as awful to their Arab citizens as what you seem to wish to believe.
So, instead of reading the articles, and the section from the Israeli government's very own Or Commission report, you spout gross generalities and irrelevant statistics that you pull out of who knows where, and then have the audacity to tell me to educate myself. Can you buy a clue?
Why is this the only alternative you propose to Israel's discrimination of the Arab population--accept your discrimination or leave? A far simpler alternative would be for Israel to stop discriminating against its Arab population, and begin to implement some of the changes that its very own investigative commission recommended.
You continue to demonstrate your inability to understand the causal relationship at work here. The hostility of Israel's Arab neighbors towards it is a result of the Zionists' oppression of the Palestinian people. To put it in the simplest possible terms that you may understand, and ridiculous historical/mythological pretexts notwithstanding, the Zionists went from Europe to Palestine and established an ethnocentric state for a people it nebulously termed "Jews," at the expense (i.e., the subordination, dispossession, expulsion, and oppression) of the indigenous population that had existed therein.
Whether necessarily discriminatory and oppressive ethnocentric states--especially ones that are at the very center of a global conflict that threaten to plunge the world into the next world war--should be allowed to exist is absolutely up for discussion and debate.
I didn't say "the Jews" are being as awful to their Arab citizens. You are the one making grossly simplistic generalizations, not me. I am saying that the state of Israel, by its very own reckoning, discriminates against its Arab population.
Hey guys,...
.......
So yeah, here's the real question : What's the objective ? What do Israel (Slash America) really want to reach ? Is it up to Palestine to make most of the concessions, or vice versa ? Who does the current situation benefit the most, you sure it's Palestinians ?
I do not pretend to be an expert on the Middle East, nor do I concern myself with every minute component of it all as I figure such are best left to the experts nor do I trust the media to express an unbiased view of the truth about much of anything. When it comes to truth in religion, politics, global warming, human encounters, or international relations, a healthy skepticism is a good policy I think.
I certainly don't know everything, but I have probably read at least as much history of Israel and the history of the Jews as the average person who has any interest in that. And based on what I have read and what I know, I do not have a problem with the Jews having a tiny piece of the planet where they can make their own laws and control their own destiny as Jews. And frankly, given the deadly discrimination the Jews have experienced in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas, I think anybody who does have a problem with Israel as a Jewish state must consider their own possible anti-semitic prejudices.
As to discrimination of Israeli citizens of Arab descent, I can read the Israeli policy on that, I can read how Arab citizens who participate in the Israeli economy and way of life are most prospering, and I can read how the Bedoins and other estranged Arab groups in Israel are not forced to live the life they choose to live. As to Israeli policies and decisions of land use, etc., I figure that is none of our business any more than it is Europe or Australia or Israel's business what rules, regulations, laws, and policies we adopt to govern our own country.
I do know with a reasonable degree of certainty that there is nothing to prevent any citizen of Israel of whatever race or ethnic group from leaving Israel, either temporarily or permanently, at any time they choose to do so.
I also know with absolute certainty that terrorist bombs and rocket attacks specifically intended to kill as many innocent men, women, and children as possible are intolerable and I do not expect Israel to accept such as either normal or acceptable, nor do I think it is wise of Israel or anybody else to capitulate to people who use such. I do know that Israel would be extremely unwise and would have some sort of death wish to not take seriously those who are pledged to the extermination of Israel.
All I expect of the Palestinians is to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and to stop trying to kill Israelis. That is not an unreasonable expectation.
At such time as the Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to resist and cease trying to kill Israelis AND are willing to sit down with the Israelis to work out the best possible solutions for both, I will expect Israel to work with the Palestinians to do that.
If they do not, then my sympathy will be with the Palestinians.
Until then, I have no problem with Israel doing whatever it must to protect their own men, women, and children in Israel, and that would include citizens of Arab descent who are also at risk from the terrorist attacks.
US archaeologists bridge Israeli-Arab gap
[...]
Archaeologists Ran Boytner of UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles) and Lynn Swartz Dodd of USC (University of Southern California) acknowledge that their 39-point Israeli-Palestinian Archeology Working Group Agreement, an outgrowth of their Shared Heritage Project, faces massive political and emotional roadblocks, especially on the Israeli side.
The objective? I think it has been staring everyone in the face for decades. For the surrounding areas to quit attacking Israel and to stop calling for the extermination of it. The U.N. created a nation there, very very small in area, to solve an age old problem, and some people won't let it go. If the Palestinians would just cool it and find something productive to do, there would be no problem whatsoever.
The Jerusalem Post:
Quote:US archaeologists bridge Israeli-Arab gap
[...]
Archaeologists Ran Boytner of UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles) and Lynn Swartz Dodd of USC (University of Southern California) acknowledge that their 39-point Israeli-Palestinian Archeology Working Group Agreement, an outgrowth of their Shared Heritage Project, faces massive political and emotional roadblocks, especially on the Israeli side.
Had you continued with the post Walter, you would have also reported the list that would require Israel again to make almost all of the concessions that are what the Palestinians want re issues the Palestinians have created with their continuing Jihad against Israel. Many of those concessions are unrelated to the project itself. A cooperative archeological project sounds wonderful and in a world in which one side was not committed to the extermination of another, it almost certainly would have gone forward.
Foxfyre wrote:
Had you continued with the post Walter, you would have also reported the list that would require Israel again to make almost all of the concessions that are what the Palestinians want re issues the Palestinians have created with their continuing Jihad against Israel. Many of those concessions are unrelated to the project itself. A cooperative archeological project sounds wonderful and in a world in which one side was not committed to the extermination of another, it almost certainly would have gone forward.
Honestly, I don't understand your response.
It was a "bridge", 'built' by US-Americans, with the knowledge of the governments of the USA, Israel and Palestine. A compromise according to other sources than the Jerusalem Post.
My point was that the entire article shows that there is much more to the issue than that one short excerpt.
