mysteryman wrote:revel wrote:Ican; you have delusions of grandeur; you do not have any kind of authority to pass such proclamations. In other words
What authority does Hamas have to say Israel has no right to exist?
Not relevant to the point of Ican's bold huge posts of proclamations.
revel wrote:mysteryman wrote:revel wrote:Ican; you have delusions of grandeur; you do not have any kind of authority to pass such proclamations. In other words
What authority does Hamas have to say Israel has no right to exist?
Not relevant to the point of Ican's bold huge posts of proclamations.
I know that, but you didnt answer the question.
Declaring that Israel has no right to exist and sending suicide bombers into Israel and firing rockets into Israel after every concession Israel makes are overtures of peace?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/99839
And here is what Hillary Clinton has to say about what Palestinian children are being taught:
http://www.pmw.org.il/getresults/political/i211849.html
What BS! Hamas has no valid point of view. Israel did not take over their lands. Zionists bought huge tracts of land in Israel proper. Many Pals abandoned Israel proper at the beginning of the '48 war. Israel took over mostly untitled land in the WB and Gaza as a prize of war after the '67 war, which the culmination of hundreds, if not thousands, of attacks on Israel.
When has Hamas made peace overtures? Some of its members have mentioned wanting self-serving truces. (They can have truces whenever they cease making rocket and mortar attacks on Israel.)
revel wrote:Ican; you have delusions of grandeur; you do not have any kind of authority to pass such proclamations. In other words
I did not state a proclimation. I offered advice and stated my prediction if they failed to take my advice.
ican wrote:Hamas, to avoid your extinction, declare your conditions for recognizing Israel's right to exist!
Hamas, in the event you have no conditions that Israel can meet--other than agreeing to leave Palestine--that would get you to agree to recognize Israel's right to exist, then prepare for yourselves and the rest of the Palestinians not residing in Israel to suffer the consequences. Whatever happens to you and the rest of the Palestinians not in Israel is solely your responsibility.
Nothing grand about that, unless of course my prediction were to prove true.
I offered my point of view and it hasn't changed; so I will just stick to that and add a bit more. In the last few days I gave links in which Hamas actually has offered overtures of peace regardless of any precieved motives. The fact that they even offered the overtures is an indication that they are willing to work with them despite their denial of Israel right to exist in the first place. Perhaps they recognize reality. Israel is aggressive just as much if not more than Hamas so I don't believe there should be pre-conditions to peace talks between Hamas and Israel. You can't choose your adversaries and Hamas is the elected body in Gaza. Palestinians and Israel and Israel supporters have disputed over how so many Palestinians lost their lands; however; the occupation is an undisputed fact. I know you all will disagree; that is fine; will agree to disagree. I am aware my position is different than most in the democratic party or even most any other party.
Meanwhile:
Quote:Israel and the Palestinians may resume peace talks this week, Israeli media reported on Thursday, but progress looked set to hinge on stemming bloodshed in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.
source
West Bank Barriers Keep Rising Despite Promises of Relief
Quote:They envisioned the residents of Gaza suffering under the radical Islamic group Hamas, which opposes Israel's right to exist and is not participating in the talks. Meanwhile, the West Bank, where Abbas holds sway, would be rewarded with a reduction of the internal barriers that Israel has imposed in the name of security. Checkpoints, barbed wire, roadblocks and trenches slice through the territory, cutting areas off from one another and causing economic hardship.
But in the more than three months since the Annapolis talks, more barriers have gone up than have come down.
"There has been no significant improvement in movement or access. And in fact, there's been an increase in the number of physical obstacles since Annapolis," said Allegra Pacheco, head of information and advocacy for the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in Jerusalem.
The organization's latest count of barriers in the West Bank is 580, up from 563 recorded in November and about 50 percent higher than it was 2 1/2 years ago.
To senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, the barriers represent a breach of trust. He said he has been assured repeatedly by Israel that a significant number of the blockades would come down.
"It's ridiculous to talk about anything involving economic development when this system of suffocation continues," he said.
But Israel contends that the Palestinian Authority has not upheld its end of the bargain by improving its security services.
"The Palestinian Authority could help us move on this issue," said Mark Regev, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
"The goal is to have a situation where a Palestinian can go from one part of the Palestinian Authority to another part of the Palestinian Authority without a roadblock," and reaching that goal is important for the peace process, he said.
But for now, the Israeli military says the barriers remain necessary. They are "designed to minimize inconvenience to the Palestinian population while preserving the safety and lives of Israelis," said Capt. Noa Meir, a military spokeswoman.
Broken promises and intimidation is not going to bring about peace. Abbus has no respect among the ones who are committing the violence so trying reach deals with him does no good.
Your article fails to mention that Hamas is regularly firing rockets into Israel, Revel, including about 20 large Iranian rockets that can strike more than 100 miles into Israel just this week. If Canada or Mexico was firing rockets into American cities, especially rockets that could hit you and yours, I think you wouldn't feel any measures taken to protect you and yours would be too extreme.
Every time Israel has attempted any concilatory policies toward the Palestinians, they have been rewarded with more rockets and more suicide bombers. What promises do you think they should keep that they have not?
As far as I am aware the part about the barriers coming down wasn't pre-conditioned on Hamas/Palestinians ceasing their firing of rockets.
Palestinians hardships due to barriers
If people are crushed like the Palestinians; they are going to fight. Either each other or the people who are crushing them.
All they had to do to stop being crushed was stop firing rockets and stop sending bombers into Israel and agree to live in peace with Israel. They have refused to do that. The barriers went up after the bombers and rockets, not before.
I know how Revel feels. I just can't get over the temerity of Israel doing what it can to stop Hamas from firing missiles, etc., into Israel. Why that is tantamount to making slaves of the Pals!
If they stop and lay down their arms; what do they have to bargain with? It is not as though Israel is blameless and full of good intentions in all this. They build settlements and take over more and more lands; they kill civilians all the time themselves. In a hundred ways they make life miserable and hopeless for Palestinians. IMO it is not all because of security but just because they want to crush out Palestine and drive them out into other Arab states or at least down so they can keep building more settlements. They probably feel the entire whole place; Gaza, BethlehemÂ…rightfully belongs to them anyway. If Palestinians laid down their arms it is highly doubtful they would get anything from Israel out of it.
Look this discussion can go on forever; and it has in a circle. I simply see it different than you guys do and I think my view is every bit as logical and fair as you guys views are.
Those Palestinians who chose to accept Israel and coexist peacefully with them not only have their own property, but also have fully citizenship rights and representation on the Knesset. There are more than a million of them residing in Israel.
Those who have supported those determined to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth are subject to whatever measures Israel has to do to defend itself. There is room to think Israel's response to murderous attacks has at times been excessive and/or counter productive, but again, how much should Israel be expected to take of that kind of thing? It is important to factor into the mix that Israel invited ALL the Palestinians to stay and join with them peacefully before the first Arab attack shortly after Israel became a country. That's where those million now living well within Israel came from. Those who chose to go with Israel's enemies made themselves enemies of Israel.
Do you advocate American citizens be rewarded for bombing and murdering innocent men, women, and children in order to get the government to do what they want? Or would you expect the government to respond with overwhelming force?
Why should Israel be expected to do any less when their own people are threatened by people determined to kill all Israelis? Now if the Palestinians genuinely offer peace and do not break their promises, and Israel does not accept that, then Israel will have a huge problem with me. So far the Palestinians have been unwilling to even say they will do that, much less do it.
Foxfyre wrote:Those Palestinians who chose to accept Israel and coexist peacefully with them not only have their own property, but also have fully citizenship rights and representation on the Knesset. There are more than a million of them residing in Israel.
Interestingly, the Israelian
Central Bureau of Statistics gives a number 1,439,900 as "Arab Population" (opposed to "Jews And Others (Non-Arab Christians and No Religious Classification)" [and they've 'Jews' and 'Non-Jews', no data for the latter, though].
The
Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a website about Arab Israelis.
Jews for Justice for Palestinians as well.
So how does that change anything I said Walter?
The zionist experiment in Israel has clearly failed. Its time to start again.
Quote:Do you advocate American citizens be rewarded for bombing and murdering innocent men, women, and children in order to get the government to do what they want? Or would you expect the government to respond with overwhelming force?
We are not occupying terrorist as Israel is Palestine which is why comparing the two situations is pointless. It is like the difference between freedom fighters and terrorist is a fine line.
And no I don't expect our government to respond to terrorist acts with overwhelming force; but proportional force.
revel wrote:Quote:Do you advocate American citizens be rewarded for bombing and murdering innocent men, women, and children in order to get the government to do what they want? Or would you expect the government to respond with overwhelming force?
We are not occupying terrorist as Israel is Palestine which is why comparing the two situations is pointless. It is like the difference between freedom fighters and terrorist is a fine line.
And no I don't expect our government to respond to terrorist acts with overwhelming force; but proportional force.
Even though overwhelming force has been proved time and again to bring conflicts to a speedy and decisive close and saves lives in the long run? Well whatever. I wonder where this notion of fighting bad guys on a you get to shoot one and we get to shoot one basis came from?
Steve 41oo wrote:The zionist experiment in Israel has clearly failed. Its time to start again.
What garbage! Israel is a vibrant and prosperous multi-ethnic democracy. No other country in the ME can say that.
