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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 05:11 pm
Advocate wrote:
Every US president has quickly learned (if they didn't already know it) that we get a terrific bang for the buck relative to aid given to Israel. For relatively peanuts, we get a presence in the ME, intelligence, military cooperation, technical assistance, etc., comparable to what we get from a presence in, say, Germany for about 50 times the expense.
Yeah, we get a great deal -- we get a "presence" in the Mideast that creates enormous strategic problems for us in many other areas and tempts our leaders to stupid things like invading Iraq. The "intelligence" and "military assistance" we get is useful only in helping Israel and wasting our goodwill and resources even more. In strategic terms, Israel is truly a millstone around our necks.

Advocate wrote:
Our anti-Israel posters persist in calling Israel oppressive, brutal, etc. What a joke, considering Israel is by far the least oppressive, etc., compared to the Pals and virtually every other regime in the ME.
Well the regional standards themselves aren't much to brag about. Even so the assertion may be true with respect to the citizens of Israel, but it certainly is not true with respect to the occupied territories. Israel's record of continuous oppression since 1967is unmatched in the world.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 05:20 pm
I guess you didn't hear. Bush went into Iraq for oil and political capital, not because it would make Israel happy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 06:34 pm
Bush has absolutely no influence in the Middle East. He's just killing time now just to look presidential; he doesn't have much left in the US.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:44 pm
The world (not just the U.S.) gets something from Israel for remaining a Jewish homeland (aka, Zionist State). Israel is the world's refrigerator for having Jews (except it is usually hot there). I mean, the world doesn't have to have a resident community of Jews in its respective country (the old NIMBY concerns; Not In My Backyard) to benefit from whatever some generation of Jews develop.

Since the short list of things that aided mankind, and a Jew was the main innovator, includes: both types of polio vaccines, nuclear energy and the atom bomb, the hydrogen bomb, relativity, bagles...

My point is that Israel does a fair amount of medical research, and the world benefits from it. What have the Palestinians given the world? I know the Arabs were involved in mathematics back in the day, but what about in the 19th to 21st centuries?

There's a book that I haven't read, but it was recommended to me years ago. The book points out that while Germany is very much an industrial giant, it is not known in the world of science as it had been known when it had a German Jewish community. Perhaps, Germany lost something by getting rid of its German Jewish community?

Since many people get uneasy when they think there are too many Jews around, the existence of Israel allows the world to have its Jewish innovations and eat its cake too, so to speak.

And, then there's the thought that if there was no Israel, Jews would be just as innovative elsewhere. I'm not so sure, since Jews, to be as creative as they can be, might just have to be undomesticated to a host Gentile culture? (Background music is from the movie Born Free.)
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 11:57 pm
foofie wrote:
And, then there's the thought that if there was no Israel, Jews would be just as innovative elsewhere. I'm not so sure, since Jews, to be as creative as they can be, might just have to be undomesticated to a host Gentile culture?

Since the short list of things that aided mankind, and a Jew was the main innovator, includes: both types of polio vaccines, nuclear energy and the atom bomb, the hydrogen bomb, relativity . . .

Since many people get uneasy when they think there are too many Jews around, the existence of Israel allows the world to have its Jewish innovations and eat its cake too, so to speak.


So, these things that you mention that aided mankind were developed in Israel?

What is this "domestication" that you refer to in regard to "Jews?"

If your persecution complex is representative of that of the Zionists in general, then what the Zionists need instead of an ethnocentric state--which is damaging not only to the Palestinian people, but to the Zionists themselves because it only reinforces the complex--is a huge group psychotherapy session.

I don't know if your bigotry and chauvinism can be treated, though. Again, if yours is representative of that of the Zionists in general, and the center of the Zionist raison d'etre, it throttles the mind to think that a majority of Americans support the Zionist endeavor. Perhaps it's that they're living theirs vicariously through yours.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:16 am
Sounds as if just because Jews are benefiting mankind through their medical research, we must learn to live with their apartheid and mistreatment of the Palestinians. Bull winkle.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:33 am
InfraBlue wrote:


So, these things that you mention that aided mankind were developed in Israel?

What is this "domestication" that you refer to in regard to "Jews?"



No. But, Israel's medical innovations might just be surpassing the creativity of Jews elsewhere (who knows if bright Jewish students, in the future, won't get into universities, based on "quotas/affirmative action"?).

You question domestication? Have you ever worn cowboy boots in Texas? Or a ten gallon hat? Jews outside of Israel are very aware that their no gallon yarmulke can invite the attention of any anti-Semite in the vicinity.

Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 11:04 am
Foofie wrote:
Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")


Precisely the same asinine argument could be made (and is made in some quarters) for Moslems; white supremicists; Catholics; Protestants; Armenians; and I suppose red-haired people. This argument is also identical to Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia.

Foofie is in some rather bad company.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 11:06 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")


Precisely the same asinine argument could be made (and is made in some quarters) for Moslems; white supremicists; Catholics; Protestants; Armenians; and I suppose red-haired people. This argument is also identical to Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia.

Foofie is in some rather bad company.


We aren't allowed to celebrate Texas independence day in Texas. It might offend the hispanic population Rolling Eyes

So your analogy fails.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 11:12 am
I believe Texans do indeed celebrate Texas Independence day -- regardless of the imagined sensibilities of those who immigrated there after the event. Happily the whole country is not infected with the paralyzing political correctitude of Bezerkley CA.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:41 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")


Precisely the same asinine argument could be made (and is made in some quarters) for Moslems; white supremicists; Catholics; Protestants; Armenians; and I suppose red-haired people. This argument is also identical to Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia.

Foofie is in some rather bad company.


I don't accept your analogy, since Catholics in Belfast have been treated poorly by Protestants, for just being Catholics. And Jews in more than a few places in this country would be treated less than respectfully, like any other person, if they are not secular, and show the traditional religious garb.

Your using "Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia" above, as a comparison for Zionism is actually funny, if it didn't show how you aren't seeing the difference between the two. Isn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel? Hitler's living space criteria was inside and outside Germany; the Nazis had no living space to share with Jews. Don't you see how you are using possibly the worst analogy?

I don't see why you make the ad hominem of calling my argument asinine, other than you don't agree with it? And, if you don't realize it, Protestants have at least five homelands that in an emergency, their fellow Protestants would very likely extend a Visa: Britain, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, United States. I say this since I've seen expatriates from these countries come to the United States, and are given very nice careers in corporate America. I guess it was the love of their accents? Personally, I believe it is human nature to take care of one's own, and the common denominator for these five countries is that Protestantism really runs each country. I say this, since if people can say Jews are clannish, let's be real and admit Protestants can be clubbish.

I repeat, five Protestant homelands. And, just for posterity, other than Britain, which fought with Catholics off and on in that country until Protestants got the upper hand, the other four Protestant countries did a thorough job of disenfranchising the original indigenous populations.

Recent history has taught Jews that in a world of six billion people, very few are willing to share "living room" with Jews.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:46 pm
Quote:
sn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel?


Um, no. Not at all. Or else Israel could have been located anywhere, certainly in a location in which the jews could have lived in peace forever.

They value Israel b/c they see it as their ancient homeland, and they wanted it back. Please be honest with yourself.

Cycloptihorn
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
sn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel?


Um, no. Not at all. Or else Israel could have been located anywhere, certainly in a location in which the jews could have lived in peace forever.

They value Israel b/c they see it as their ancient homeland, and they wanted it back. Please be honest with yourself.

Cycloptihorn


Your use of "they" is specious. "They" includes secular and Orthodox. The Orthodox believe in the land of Israel. The secular might just have been as happy with Madagascar. I can't talk for all Jews. You can? Change your moniker to Moses.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:09 pm
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
sn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel?


Um, no. Not at all. Or else Israel could have been located anywhere, certainly in a location in which the jews could have lived in peace forever.

They value Israel b/c they see it as their ancient homeland, and they wanted it back. Please be honest with yourself.

Cycloptihorn


Your use of "they" is specious. "They" includes secular and Orthodox. The Orthodox believe in the land of Israel. The secular might just have been as happy with Madagascar. I can't talk for all Jews. You can? Change your moniker to Moses.


Your distinction is immaterial. The Orthodox did not desire a peaceful existence, where they could live their lives unmolested: they desired their ancestral lands back. The secular backed them up.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:40 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
sn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel?


Um, no. Not at all. Or else Israel could have been located anywhere, certainly in a location in which the jews could have lived in peace forever.

They value Israel b/c they see it as their ancient homeland, and they wanted it back. Please be honest with yourself.

Cycloptihorn


Your use of "they" is specious. "They" includes secular and Orthodox. The Orthodox believe in the land of Israel. The secular might just have been as happy with Madagascar. I can't talk for all Jews. You can? Change your moniker to Moses.


Your distinction is immaterial. The Orthodox did not desire a peaceful existence, where they could live their lives unmolested: they desired their ancestral lands back. The secular backed them up.

Cycloptichorn


You were there to see whether the British were amenable to alternatives?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
sn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel?


Um, no. Not at all. Or else Israel could have been located anywhere, certainly in a location in which the jews could have lived in peace forever.

They value Israel b/c they see it as their ancient homeland, and they wanted it back. Please be honest with yourself.

Cycloptihorn


Your use of "they" is specious. "They" includes secular and Orthodox. The Orthodox believe in the land of Israel. The secular might just have been as happy with Madagascar. I can't talk for all Jews. You can? Change your moniker to Moses.


Your distinction is immaterial. The Orthodox did not desire a peaceful existence, where they could live their lives unmolested: they desired their ancestral lands back. The secular backed them up.

Cycloptichorn

The orthodox (as well as other Jews) DID DESIRE A PEACEFUL EXISTENCE, WHERE THEY COULD LIVE UNMOLESTED IN SOME SMALL PIECE OF THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS.

The UN resolved that the orthodox and non-orthodox Jews could have exactly that. When they got exactly that, they encouraged the Palestinian Arabs within that small piece of the Jews' ancestral lands to remain on and retain ownership of their property within that small piece of the Jews ancestral lands. Those Palestinian Arabs that remained in Israel enjoy their property in Israel to this day. Those Palestinian Arabs that fled their property in Israel in anticipation of Israel's neighboring countries conquering Israel, lost their property in Israel.

Vuhden!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 12:27 am
Foofie wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:


So, these things that you mention that aided mankind were developed in Israel?

What is this "domestication" that you refer to in regard to "Jews?"



No. But, Israel's medical innovations might just be surpassing the creativity of Jews elsewhere (who knows if bright Jewish students, in the future, won't get into universities, based on "quotas/affirmative action"?).

You question domestication? Have you ever worn cowboy boots in Texas? Or a ten gallon hat? Jews outside of Israel are very aware that their no gallon yarmulke can invite the attention of any anti-Semite in the vicinity.

Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")


So, the Zionists necessarily discriminate against and oppress the Palestinian people because they are tired of "knowing smirks," and this is the same as a Texan wanting to wear cowboy clothes. These are the thought processes of a deeply disturbed mind.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 12:37 am
What is more disturbing is the simple fact that the Jews claim Palestine was granted to them by god, and they treat all others with - not love thy neighbor - but with travel restrictions, job restrictions, no legal rights to protect their land, and no democracy.

A considerable conflict in the teaching of god.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:42 am
Foofie wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Do you get it? A Texan in Texas can be a Texan (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Texas.") But, outside of Israel, a Jew needs to be very aware of being a Jew. Even declining bacon, with the bacon and eggs breakfast special can engender a "knowing smirk." Most Jews are inured to this, but just like you have Texas, I believe Jews worldwide should have Israel as their choice to emigrate to, if they are perhaps tired of "knowing smirks" (clapping hands to the tune of, "deep in the heart of Israel.")


Precisely the same asinine argument could be made (and is made in some quarters) for Moslems; white supremacists; Catholics; Protestants; Armenians; and I suppose red-haired people. This argument is also identical to Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia.

Foofie is in some rather bad company.


I don't accept your analogy, since Catholics in Belfast have been treated poorly by Protestants, for just being Catholics. And Jews in more than a few places in this country would be treated less than respectfully, like any other person, if they are not secular, and show the traditional religious garb.
Democracy and freedom have been restored in Northern Ireland and the two groups are learning to tolerate one another and to live together with mutual respect and benefit. It took a long time but both sides in this dispute have rejected those among them who called for violence, separatism, and intolerance. This is an example of the new reality towards which Israel should strive.

Foofie wrote:
[Your using "Hitler's call for "living space" for the German diaspora in Central Europe and Russia" above, as a comparison for Zionism is actually funny, if it didn't show how you aren't seeing the difference between the two. Isn't Hitler and his "living space" the exact reason Jews give value to the existence of Israel? Hitler's living space criteria was inside and outside Germany; the Nazis had no living space to share with Jews. Don't you see how you are using possibly the worst analogy?
Hitler called for the return of diaspora Germans from Hungary, the Volga region in Russia and as far afield as South America. He also demanded contiguous territory in Europe for German expansion, the exclusive "purity" of the German population, and he set about exterminating german Jews and others who opposed his regime. While Israel is far from the Nazi regime, the many fundamental analogous elements of the comparison are quite obvious. I agree that Zionists are in major part reacting to the outrages of the Nazis, however the perhaps cruel analogies between the remedy they created for themselves and the thing that formerly oppressed and murdered them are clear for all to see.

Foofie wrote:
I don't see why you make the ad hominem of calling my argument asinine, other than you don't agree with it? And, if you don't realize it, Protestants have at least five homelands that in an emergency, their fellow Protestants would very likely extend a Visa: Britain, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, United States. I say this since I've seen expatriates from these countries come to the United States, and are given very nice careers in corporate America. I guess it was the love of their accents? Personally, I believe it is human nature to take care of one's own, and the common denominator for these five countries is that Protestantism really runs each country. I say this, since if people can say Jews are clannish, let's be real and admit Protestants can be clubbish.

I repeat, five Protestant homelands. And, just for posterity, other than Britain, which fought with Catholics off and on in that country until Protestants got the upper hand, the other four Protestant countries did a thorough job of disenfranchising the original indigenous populations.
I think you are a very bright guy. It was the argument you offered that I (correctly) labeled as asinine - not you yourself.

The "Protestant homelands" you cited all (except perhaps for new Zealand) have substantial Catholic and Jewish populations. Moreover they have relatively open immigration with increasing numbers of people from East and South Asia joining them. Moreover none has any legal or even fixed cultural commitment to remain Protestant. I don't see any support for your argument here.

Recent history has taught Jews that in a world of six billion people, very few are willing to share "living room" with Jews.[/quote]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 01:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
What is more disturbing is the simple fact that the Jews claim Palestine was granted to them by god, and they treat all others with - not love thy neighbor - but with travel restrictions, job restrictions, no legal rights to protect their land, and no democracy.

A considerable conflict in the teaching of god.

Cice, this post of yours is mere repetition of your persistent fantasy. You continually demonstrate you are either ignorant of the true nature of the relationship between the Israeli Arabs and the Israeli Jews, or you are intentionally falsifying the nature of that relationship.
0 Replies
 
 

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