ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
But setting that aside, try to focus on the Jews for a moment and what happens to them when many millions of Arabs who have pledged to exterminate them have the opportunity and license to do exactly that? You are asking them to give up the only homeland they have. What would you do if you were them?

Foxfire,

Please explain to us what might be a realistic alternative to an Israeli accomodation with the Palestinians - one that conforms to the political norms for the modern world.

Given the intransigence of her Moslem neighbors and the huge disparity in population growth rates between them and Israel, just what is likely to be required to maintain the status quo as the future evolves and the relative size of the Jewish population of both Israel and the region grows smaller and smaller?

Should the United States continue its guarantee of security for Israel, even though the national security, political and economic cost to us is large and growing? Should we continue a trade regime with Israel that is more favorable (to them) than any other country in the world (including our immediate neighbors)? Should we continue sending most of our economic aid to Israel - one of the most advanced economies in the world? Should we continue the forced purchase of U.S. military equipment from Israeli firms and the huge credits we give them annually for their own defense shopping here? Should we continue the very large bribes (aid) we send annually to Egypt as a condition of their continued peace with Israel? Should we allow ourselves to be the economic gurantor of any future peace deal among the parties, while we have so many other growing priorities?

Should the United States DIScontinue its guarantee of security for Israel, BECAUSE the national security, political and economic cost to us is large and growing? Should we DIScontinue a trade regime with Israel that is more favorable (to them) than any other country in the world (including our immediate neighbors)? Should we DIScontinue sending most of our economic aid to Israel - one of the most advanced economies in the world? Should we DIScontinue the forced purchase of U.S. military equipment from Israeli firms and the huge credits we give them annually for their own defense shopping here? Should we DIScontinue the very large bribes (aid) we send annually to Egypt as a condition of their continued peace with Israel? Should we DISallow ourselves to be the economic gurantor of any future peace deal among the parties, while we have so many other growing priorities?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CONSEQUENCES OF OUR DOING THAT AND NOT DOING THAT WILL BE? WHY DO YOU THINK SO?

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Advocate wrote:

The last time I looked, the Jews, in Muslim eyes, are infidels. The Koran calls for the death of infidels. Thus, it is hard to imagine that Israel would, or could, agree to a single state encompassing their area.

An infidel (literally "one without faith") is an English word meaning "one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion or has no religious beliefs".

Quote:

Main Entry: 1in·fi·del Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: infdl, -del
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Middle French infidele, adjective & noun, from Late Latin infidelis, from Latin, untrustworthy, unfaithful, from in- 1in- + fidelis faithful -- more at FEAL
1 : one that is not a Christian or opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever in respect to a particular religion b : one that acknowledges no religious belief -- distinguished from heretic
3 : one that does not believe (as in something specified or understood) : SKEPTIC, DISBELIEVER

Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (3 Feb. 2008).

You mean perhaps "Kafir".

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foxfyre wrote:

I see no evidence that the Jews anywhere are oppressing anybody who isn't try to blow up or kidnap Jews on busses or in crowded markets or who isn't lobbing shells into Israeli neighborhoods.

The people who are doing those things are a militant minority who have been reacting to the imposition of the Zionists in Palestine to the utter detriment of the Palestinian people.

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I think the more than 1 million Palestinians who chose to stay in Israel and became Israeli citizens do not feel any manner of oppression.

The Palestinian Israelis, rather, are discriminated against and repressed by the Zionist state, as reported by its Orr commission, which characterized the regime's treatment of the Arab sector as prejudiced and neglectful; and as evidenced by a policy of segregation it applies against that population.

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I think if other Palestinians would acknowledge Israel's right to exist and pledge to be responsible and peaceful neighbors of Israel they would find the Israelis to be far better friend to them than their leaders are.

For the Palestinians to acknowledge Israel's 'right to exist,' as Israel defines the phrase, would be for the Palestinians to acquiesce to their own oppression and relinquish their right to live in their ancestral homeland.

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But setting that aside, try to focus on the Jews for a moment and what happens to them when many millions of Arabs who have pledged to exterminate them have the opportunity and license to do exactly that? You are asking them to give up the only homeland they have. What would you do if you were them?

You are basing you question on hyperbole. Many millions of Arabs don't give two thought about the Jewish people. When they do they think about the bigoted and oppressive state imposed upon the Palestinians on behalf of the Jewish people.

That aside, why would anyone give opportunity and license to the minority of people driven to thoughts of "exterminating Jews" to do that? If necessary, an international investigative and police organization could be put in place staffed by experts from countries in other parts of the world. This is closer to what the UN had intended when it suggested the formation of a two nation state in Palestine in 1948.

The zionists merely cherry pick UN resolutions that are convenient to there ends, and blatantly ignore, or rationalize away the one's that aren't.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
But setting that aside, try to focus on the Jews for a moment and what happens to them when many millions of Arabs who have pledged to exterminate them have the opportunity and license to do exactly that? You are asking them to give up the only homeland they have. What would you do if you were them?

Foxfire,

Please explain to us what might be a realistic alternative to an Israeli accomodation with the Palestinians - one that conforms to the political norms for the modern world?

Who is to say what is the 'political norm for the modern world'? Every day somewhere in some thread you are likely to find one or more posts condemning or criticizing or ridiculing or calling backward or ignorant or inferior the United States, its culture, and its political systems. The great experiment that became our republic was certainly not the 'political norm' of the world of that day. Yet as we threw off the yokes of slavery, segregation, racial discrimination, etc. we still work to be sure voters in Florida are not inconvenicned by having certain voting machines and we implemented Affirmative Action intended to correct injustices of the past and we still gerrymander voting districts to be certain certain groups of people are not disenfranchised. None of these things are 'normal' but they are deemed necessary to meet real or perceived needs of certain groups.

Considering that the Jews are unique in the world as a group that has for so long been persecuted and/or discriminated against because they are Jews, is there no room on a global scale to gerrymander a process by which this relatively tiny population of the world can have a place to just be themselves and not have to be at the mercy of anybody else to decide what will become of them?

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Given the intransigence of her Moslem neighbors and the huge disparity in population growth rates between them and Israel, just what is likely to be required to maintain the status quo as the future evolves and the relative size of the Jewish population of both Israel and the region grows smaller and smaller?

I don't know. Maybe the Jews themselves will see that a Jewish state is not viable or sustainable at some point. But my gut tells me that is for them to decide and not us. I think it will be necessary for the Arabs to cease their Jihad against the Jews before that will ever be a consideration.

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Should the United States continue its guarantee of security for Israel, even though the national security, political and economic cost to us is large and growing? Should we continue a trade regime with Israel that is more favorable (to them) than any other country in the world (including our immediate neighbors)? Should we continue sending most of our economic aid to Israel - one of the most advanced economies in the world? Should we continue the forced purchase of U.S. military equipment from Israeli firms and the huge credits we give them annually for their own defense shopping here? Should we continue the very large bribes (aid) we send annually to Egypt as a condition of their continued peace with Israel? Should we allow ourselves to be the economic gurantor of any future peace deal among the parties, while we have so many other growing priorities?

Again I don't know. Is it better for democracies to exist in the Middle East as yeast that may keep it from becoming more and more ingrown and fanatical? Given that the Middle East has the power to bring the industrialized world to its knees by controlling a substantial percentage of the world's crude oil reserves, for now is it in our national interest that we continue to exact some influence there? If the Jews are indeed God's chosen people as the Old Testament states, will there be divine retribution if we allow the Jews of Israel to be exterminated because it isn't our business?

If I knew the answer to these things, I would throw my hat into the ring to be world dictator or something.

I do know that I think it should be no problem to anybody if the Jews have one tiny place in the world where they can ensure that Jews can live and worship free without fear or discrimination.

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Foxfire,

Please ask yourself if the unqualified gurantees and subsidies the United States has for so long provided to Israel have in any way encouraged the Israelis themselves to more seriously consider the long-term implications of their own actions with respect to their neighbors - the very people they chose to live among in the recreation of a Jewish state? Ask also if our aid and support has in any way advanced the cause of freedom and democracy in either the Middle East or the Moslem world.

The answer to both questions is an unqualified no. We have done far more harm than good - both for the parties there, and, sadly, for ourselves as well.

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Quote:

Considering that the Jews are unique in the world as a group that has for so long been persecuted and/or discriminated against because they are Jews

This is an incredibly arrogant and ignorant comment to make.

I guess it's technically true; no other groups are persecuted for being jews other then the jews. But ask the Kurds about this sometime, or the Druze, or other persecuted groups.

Cycloptichorn

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I think that if we do DISCONTINUE our favorable treatment of Israel, Israel will collapse and be exterminated or subjugated. I think that because I believe so much of the Arab leadership supported by a majority of Arabs wants Israel to collapse and be exterminated or subjugated, and will not this century ever accept a civilized relationship with the Jews of Israel. I think that because of the Arabs prior treatment of the Jews in Israel prior to 1947, and their 1948 murderous reaction to Israel's declaration of independence, long before Israel wanted to exclude any Arabs from Israel.

I think that if Israel collapses and the Jews in Israel are exterminated or subjugated, western nations including the USA will pay a far dearer price than if they CONTINUE their favorable treatment of Israel. I think that because so much of the Arab leadership in the middle east is convinced that it is their moral duty to next proceed to the extermination or subjugation of western states. I think that because so much of the Arab leadership has declared it seeks to regain empire Arabs once possessed, or supports those among them who have declared same.

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ican711nm wrote:

I think that if we do DISCONTINUE our favorable treatment of Israel, Israel will collapse and be exterminated or subjugated. I think that because I believe so much of the Arab leadership supported by a majority of Arabs wants Israel to collapse and be exterminated or subjugated, and will not this century ever accept a civilized relationship with the Jews of Israel. I think that because of the Arabs prior treatment of the Jews in Israel prior to 1947, and their 1948 murderous reaction to Israel's declaration of independence, long before Israel wanted to exclude any Arabs from Israel.

I think that if Israel collapses and the Jews in Israel are exterminated or subjugated, western nations including the USA will pay a far dearer price than if they CONTINUE their favorable treatment of Israel. I think that because so much of the Arab leadership in the middle east is convinced that it is their moral duty to next proceed to the extermination or subjugation of western states. I think that because so much of the Arab leadership has declared it seeks to regain empire Arabs once possessed, or supports those among them who have declared same.

It's ridiculous that you believe the 4th largest military in the world, armed with many nukes, is just going to disappear. They would take every muslim nation down with them.

Your scare scenario has little to do with the reality of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

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foxfyre wrote:

If the Jews are indeed God's chosen people as the Old Testament states, will there be divine retribution if we allow the Jews of Israel to be exterminated because it isn't our business?

The traditional Orthodox view used to be that Israel would be re-established by the Messiah, and human efforts to do so would be blasphemous. Religious replys to this came much later after the imposition of Zionism in Palestine by religious Zionists such as Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook.

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. . . the Jews are unique in the world as a group that has for so long been persecuted and/or discriminated against because they are Jews . . .

So, other peoples being persecuted for being themselves aren't special also?

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfire,

Please ask yourself if the unqualified gurantees and subsidies the United States has for so long provided to Israel have in any way encouraged the Israelis themselves to more seriously consider the long-term implications of their own actions with respect to their neighbors - the very people they chose to live among in the recreation of a Jewish state? Ask also if our aid and support has in any way advanced the cause of freedom and democracy in either the Middle East or the Moslem world.

The answer to both questions is an unqualified no. We have done far more harm than good - both for the parties there, and, sadly, for ourselves as well.

I respect your opinion on that George. But my gut won't let me agree with you. I think Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, and Lybia would have all made a great deal more mischief than they have without the presence of Israel and the USA in the Middle East--the presence of Israel of course gives us a valid reason to have a presence. I think militant Islam was inevitable had there never been an Israel. I don't know what havoc Saddam Hussein would have wrecked had we not intervened when he seized Kuwait and was maneuvering to take Saudi Arabia too. I doubt anybody knows what he would have done had there been no UN sanctions/inspections and no invasion in 1993. Israel had nothing to do with either one of those events.

And I don't know if those guarantees were so 'unqualified' either as Israel seems to mostly exemplify what a democratic country should be. Would that have happened without influence from more moderate democratic influences? Again I don't know.

I am reasonably certain that should the Israelis pull up stakes and abandon Israel to the Arabs which is the Arabs' goal, we will not see increased stabilization of the Middle East and will most likely see things get worse.

By the way. Are you a Ron Paul supporter? Smile

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Foxfyre wrote:

By the way. Are you a Ron Paul supporter?

No. Do I sound like one? :wink:

I haven't even paid any attention to his campaign rhetoric. It's hard enough just tuning in to the BS of the serious candidates.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

By the way. Are you a Ron Paul supporter?

No. Do I sound like one? :wink:

I haven't even paid any attention to his campaign rhetoric. It's hard enough just tuning in to the BS of the serious candidates.

When it comes to Israel, yeah you kind of do. Smile

He thinks the USA has no business meddling in or taking responsibility for or assisting or going into cooperative ventures with ANYBODY other than ourselves. From my libertarian soul, that concept actually resonates positively, but my practical side acknowledges that protectionist and isolationist policies generally backfire in the long run. Which gives support to your views on Israel looking at it from that perspective. I just don't have the same objection to an intentionally structured Jewish majority state I guess. I wish there was some way to structure an intentional conservative majority in this one without losing other important benefits built into a truly free society.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
It's ridiculous that you believe [Israel] the 4th largest military in the world, armed with many nukes, is just going to disappear. They would take every muslim nation down with them.

Your scare scenario has little to do with the reality of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

I think it ridiculous that you believe Israel can protect itself from extermination or subjugation without our help, because it has a large defense force and nukes. Neither of these has deterred Arab leadership efforts to exterminate or subjugate Israel.

Let's examine the nuke superiority of Israel. How is that superiority able to protect Israel against escalating terrorist acts originating within a few miles of its borders? Israel can nuke 'em you might say! That absurd. There is no way Israel's population will survive exploding nuclear weapons within a few miles of its borders. Hell, the threat of the use of those nukes by Israel, hasn't deturred any of the Arab terrorism of Israel todate. Why should it do so when the USA stops supporting Israel?

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
It's ridiculous that you believe [Israel] the 4th largest military in the world, armed with many nukes, is just going to disappear. They would take every muslim nation down with them.

Your scare scenario has little to do with the reality of the situation.

Cycloptichorn

I think it ridiculous that you believe Israel can protect itself from extermination or subjugation without our help, because it has a large defense force and nukes. Neither of these has deterred Arab leadership efforts to exterminate or subjugate Israel.

Let's examine the nuke superiority of Israel. How is that superiority able to protect Israel against escalating terrorist acts originating within a few miles of its borders? Israel can nuke 'em you might say! That absurd. There is no way Israel's population will survive exploding nuclear weapons within a few miles of its borders. Hell, the threat of the use of those nukes by Israel, hasn't deturred any of the Arab terrorism of Israel todate. Why should it do so when the USA stops supporting Israel?

So, their conventional military just sit around with their thumbs up their asses in your scenario?

Your 'escalating terrorist acts' haven't materialized anywhere, though for years you've been promoting those scare scenarios. It's a position which is not based in evidence or logic, but fear.

Cycloptichorn

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For those that see Israel as a bad, bad Jewish child (ADHJD - Attention Deficit Hyperactive Jewish Disorder, for lack of a better term), they might just be forgetting that the need for a political solution evolved out of a religious adversarial relationship, that Christianity itself may need to comment about.

I mean, Jerusalem has some import in Christian theology. So does Bethlehem. So, if Christianity (aka, the United States and western nations) would ask Israel to "do the right thing" and then withdraw support to Israel, eventually Islam can be a veritable tsunami to Israel's Jews.

In effect, If Christianity can turn its back on the the Jews of Israel, that to me sounds self-serving, since Christianity, in its two-thousand year success story has many "homelands." Perhaps, Christianity having its roots in Judaism should first dissolve as a world-wide religion, since it is asking Judaism to "bit the bullet," so to speak, and face possible oblivion from an Islamic tsumani (population wise, or militarily).

If the posters here were including the dissolution of Christianity, since Christianity seems to have given Pontius Pilate some slack, while proselytizing anti-Semitism for two millenia, I'd say there was some intellectual integrity in the posts. But, it seems the burden of "making nice" to the Arabs falls on the Jews?

And, what if Israel ceased to exist? Why then Jews elsewhere would eventually assimilate, and voila, the Old Testament can be claimed only by Christianity. Would there be people that would find this a veritable Mitzvah for Christianity? (Mitzvah is the term for a Jewish good deed, like "good works" in Catholicism.)

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
So, their conventional military just sit around with their thumbs up their asses in your scenario?

Your 'escalating terrorist acts' haven't materialized anywhere, though for years you've been promoting those scare scenarios. It's a position which is not based in evidence or logic, but fear.

Cycloptichorn

Of course 'escalating terrorist acts' haven't materialized anywhere near the extent I suggested they would, if the USA discontinued its support of Israel. However, terrorist acts have indeed escalated throughout the world. But they haven't escalated anywhere near the extent they will if the USA were to discontinue its support of Israel.

My claim is that greater 'escalating terrorist acts' will materialize if the USA discontinues its support of Israel.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
So, their conventional military just sit around with their thumbs up their asses in your scenario?

Your 'escalating terrorist acts' haven't materialized anywhere, though for years you've been promoting those scare scenarios. It's a position which is not based in evidence or logic, but fear.

Cycloptichorn

Of course 'escalating terrorist acts' haven't materialized anywhere near the extent I suggested they would, if the USA discontinued its support of Israel. However, terrorist acts have indeed escalated throughout the world. But they haven't escalated anywhere near the extent they will if the USA were to discontinue its support of Israel.

My claim is that greater 'escalating terrorist acts' will materialize if the USA discontinues its support of Israel.

What does our support currently give to Israel, that prevents these terrorist attacks right now? Specifically.

Cycloptichorn

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Israel is a strong, effective state with a vibrant economy and a very strong military that has repeatedly shown it can take on and defeat its Arab neighbors. I doubt that Israel's existence would be seriously threatened by a more accommodating posture with respect to the (largely) captive Palestinian population, or even the relaxation of its commitment to being permanently Jewish dominated state. That of course is choice for them to make.

Advocates of intolerance and oppression everywhere have argued that ending the evils of their oppression would bring about the end of their culture and lives -- that was the argument put forward in favor of continuing the Jim Crow segregation in the American South, slavery in an earlier era, and numerous other examples as well. However, it doesn't work out that way.

Under the present arrangement of an increasingly costly security commitment from the United States, (1) Israel has no incentive to consider anything but a prolongation of the present impasse, however much this raises the stakes for the United States in terms of the adverse effect on our own security situation and the very large direct economic cost to us; (2) The rage, radicalization, and population pressure of the neighboring Arab states grows apace; and finally (3) The prospects of ever finding a peaceful accommodationn among Israel and her neighbors diminishes. What is at the end of this road??????

Precisely because Israel is insulated - by us - from any need to confront its own moral culpability and the predictable practical consequences of her continued oppression of the Palestinians, the United States has, in effect, made itself a hostage the most intractable elements in the Israeli body politic. Now if we consider reducing or eliminating this commitment we are instantly accused of bringing about the destruction of Israel -- as other posters here have already asserted. That of course is far from the truth. Just like every other country in the world, Israel is responsible for finding a way to live in peace and justice with its neighbors, and reconciling its wants with the principles of humanity and justice. We can't do that for them, and unfortunately we have unwittingly encouraged them to ignore this imperative altogether.

Regardless of one's opinion on the matter, the United States will eventually be unable to continue bearing the growing strategic and economic - and moral - cost of our guarantee to Israel. The fact is that domestic political support for it is already diminishing very fast. What will happen then?

It in Israel's best interests to begin now the process of finding a just accommodation with all the human beings in the region which it so utterly dominates. There is no good outcome realizable for Israel on any other path.

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georgeob1 wrote:

It (is, sic) in Israel's best interests to begin now the process of finding a just accommodation with all the human beings in the region which it so utterly dominates. There is no good outcome realizable for Israel on any other path.

And, all the parties are cooperative, looking for a win-win solution. Please wake up.

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Foofie,

You aren't being serious. You haven't yet attempted to address my points about Israel's (lack of) long-term prospects under the current situation. Nor have you addressed the contradictions we face, given the rising moral, strategic and economic costs of our continued security guarantee - not to mention the rapidly diminishing domestic political support for continuing it.

What really is in Israel's best interest in this situation?

Interestingly I had a similar conversation that touched on these points a long time ago with Ezer Weitzman, who was then the head of the IAF under the first Likud government. He frankly acknowledged the dilemma, but didn't go much farther. The idea that, in retaining the West bank, Israel had indeed embraced a tar baby, was then just becoming evident to some in the government.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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