ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Foxfyre wrote:

Um, I do not claim to be an expert on Israel by any means, but you can't take their high tech accomplishments away from them.

Quote:
. . . ."Israeli technology companies are showing impressive growth rates both in absolute terms and in comparison to other European countries, including [those in] Western Europe," said Yigal Brightman, chairman and CEO of Deloitte Brightman Almagor and managing partner of the TMT group in Deloitte. "The dizzying success of Israeli companies in 2007 is not coincidental, and is amazing in light of the GDP of other countries included in the survey, such as Britain, Germany and France," he added.

The EMEA Fast 500 survey ranks the 500 technology companies, both private and publicly traded, that presented the most rapid revenue-growth rates during the past five years. The rating is based on the "Fast 50" regional competitions the company held in 16 European countries. . . .

. . . .A total of eight Israeli companies are among the leading 50 firms in the Fast 500, constituting a total of 9 percent of the rated companies.

And another impressive achievement: BioView, which came in at 38, achieved first place in the life sciences and medical instrumentation category. BioView develops and markets systems for identifying cell pathologies.

This year 45 Israeli companies were included in the list, compared to 44 in 2006 and 34 two years ago. Analysis of the results of the rating shows that the 45 Israeli firms included in the rating averaged a growth rate of 3,692 percent, higher than in any other participating country. The next most impressive results come from Bulgaria, with an average growth rate of 3279 percent; Poland, which averaged 2,448 percent; and Sweden, averaging 1,610 percent.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/928361.html

Foxfyre, your reference neglected to specifically mention Israel's development of its own business jet. It has for many years been flown in the USA by both Israeli pilots and USA pilots.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I choose not to believe you. You are an ideologue.

Cycloptichorn

Are you one as well?

What do you think?

Cycloptichorn

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Well the word has two meanings; (1) a theorist, or one who theorises; and (2) one who is a blindly partisan advocate of a certain body of ideas.

To some extent most of us are partisan advocates of some idas. Whether that advocacy is blind or not is likely a prejudgement that one cannot make with certainty.

You certainly appear have some fixed ideas about economics, corporations, and the motives of some groups of people that strike me as either unknowable or unrealistic. Whether you entertain alternatives to them in your own thoughts is something I don't know.

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Foofie wrote:

It appears to me that the western nations want Israel to survive, since they are a source of innovations in hi-tech electronics, whether it is related to defense, or the consumer market.

But does this survival necessarily include the oppression of the Palestinian people for ethnocentric purposes?

Quote:

Naturally, that can't be an "official" position, since the western nations need Middle East oil. It's a balancing act for the western nations, I believe.

It is precisely because of their blatant ethical/moral failures and hypocrisies in their support of a necessarily oppressive ethnocentric regime in a region with a population obviously against such a regime--because that regime represses people of their very own ethnicity--that the Western nations have to balance their support for such a regime and the others of the region.

Quote:

This reality is very much part of any equation as to what will transpire there. Any ideologues need to accept this likely reality, rather than hammer on ethical/moral dogma.

The reality presented above is what any ideologue needs to accept rather than pussy foot around it, and or try to convince himself is not the crux of the matter.

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Infra, I guess you think we should be giving military aid to the Pal militants. They can then use this to speed up their persecution of Christian and other non-Muslim Pals, and to drive the hated Israelis into the sea.

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I think we should be using our power and influence to create a single egalitarian state in Palestine that serves the need of both peoples.

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InfraBlue wrote:

I think we should be using our power and influence to create a single egalitarian state in Palestine that serves the need of both peoples.

There are between an estimate 12 or 13 million and 17 million Jews in the world. There are 280 million Arabs and that doesn't even count the majority populations of Egypt and Iran who are technically not Arabs but who would like to see Israel removed from the Earth. (I'm working from memory here so acknowledge up front to the number fanatics that these numbers may be off.)

So you create this single egalitarian state in Palestine that 'serves the needs of both peoples'. Do you honestly think the then minority Jews would have a chance to live in peace, practice their cultural heritage, worship as they please?

It would definitely solve the Palestinian problem all right. But the Jews would no longer have a homeland and no place to go where they could ensure that they could 'just be Jews' in peace. That's assuming that Israeli Jews who stayed would be allowed to survive at all.

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Foxfyre wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
I think we should be using our power and influence to create a single egalitarian state in Palestine that serves the need of both peoples.

There are between an estimate 12 or 13 million and 17 million Jews in the world. There are 280 million Arabs and that doesn't even count the majority populations of Egypt and Iran who are technically not Arabs but who would like to see Israel removed from the Earth. (I'm working from memory here so acknowledge up front to the number fanatics that these numbers may be off.)

So you create this single egalitarian state in Palestine that 'serves the needs of both peoples'. Do you honestly think the then minority Jews would have a chance to live in peace, practice their cultural heritage, worship as they please?

It would definitely solve the Palestinian problem all right. But the Jews would no longer have a homeland and no place to go where they could ensure that they could 'just be Jews' in peace. That's assuming that Israeli Jews who stayed would be allowed to survive at all.

So then, for Jews to be able to 'just be Jews' necessarily includes the perpetual oppression of a people who are not Jews, and that is a situation you find moral and ethical, and something you fully support?

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Foxfyre wrote:

There are between an estimate 12 or 13 million and 17 million Jews in the world. There are 280 million Arabs and that doesn't even count the majority populations of Egypt and Iran who are technically not Arabs but who would like to see Israel removed from the Earth.

I'm not going to discuss the numbers (those about the Jews are wrong, if you rely on Jewish sources), but my question is from where you got the number of Arabs.

For instance there might be 1 Million Arabians living in Germany - the correct number is unknown (estimated 80,000 live in Berlin), from 20 countries.

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Okay here are are sources with numbers. I have no opinion as to how accurate they may or may not be, but they do agree with the numbers in my head.

The Arab world''s population is projected to increase from 280 million today to over 400 million in 2020. The last thing the region needs is an abundance of young people without jobs and little future.
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/arab-world-faces-major-long-term-problems/

According to the estimates for 2007 of the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, the world population of Jews is 13.2 million. [1]Adherents.com cites figures ranging from 12.8 million to 18.2 million Jews.[2] These statistics incorporate both practicing Jews affilated with synagogues and the Jewish community, and approximately 4.5 million unaffiliated and secular Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

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Foxfyre wrote:

It would definitely solve the Palestinian problem all right. But the Jews would no longer have a homeland and no place to go where they could ensure that they could 'just be Jews' in peace. That's assuming that Israeli Jews who stayed would be allowed to survive at all.

I know of only one other group of human beings in the world who insist that they must have exclusive control of any part of the world so that they can "just be themselves" - and that is Saudi Arabia. Like Zionism, the worldview of Wahabbi Moslems is a relic of another age and a thing that flies in the face of the basic principles of the modern world.

The truth is that there are about as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel, and they appear to be doing allright. In addition they appear to have little motivation to emigrate to Israel.

More importantly, the sappy repetition of this "one little place in the world where we can be ourselves" bit evades the fundamental point of Israel's illegal and unjust attempts to expand its borders into the occupied territories and drive the inhabitants out of their land. Israel still has effective control over the West Bank more than 40 years after their conquest of it, and the people there have no political voice whatever in the Israeli government. Israel hides behind the fiction of Palestinian "independence" in the territory beyond the wall. However, as we have seen that "independence" is a mirage.

This is the real central issue of the conflict. Sadly 40+ years of Israeli military occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinian people have likely so radicalized them that no relatively easy solution is now possible. Zionists cynically point to the hostility of the Palestinians (which they have so systematically cultivated) and ask the world what they can do in the face of such anger. The only practical and just answer is, end the injustice and deal with the consequences of your own actions.

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So, what are a few million Arabs kept in perpetual oppression in return for 'Jews being able to be Jews.'

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Fine, thanks.

So why exactly do you quote the population of some 20 Arab countries to those of Jews all all over the world, included in that number Jews who even don't practise there religion but not differentiating religious beliefs or non-beliefs in the Arabian countries?

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InfraBlue wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
I think we should be using our power and influence to create a single egalitarian state in Palestine that serves the need of both peoples.

There are between an estimate 12 or 13 million and 17 million Jews in the world. There are 280 million Arabs and that doesn't even count the majority populations of Egypt and Iran who are technically not Arabs but who would like to see Israel removed from the Earth. (I'm working from memory here so acknowledge up front to the number fanatics that these numbers may be off.)

So you create this single egalitarian state in Palestine that 'serves the needs of both peoples'. Do you honestly think the then minority Jews would have a chance to live in peace, practice their cultural heritage, worship as they please?

It would definitely solve the Palestinian problem all right. But the Jews would no longer have a homeland and no place to go where they could ensure that they could 'just be Jews' in peace. That's assuming that Israeli Jews who stayed would be allowed to survive at all.

So then, for Jews to be able to 'just be Jews' necessarily includes the perpetual oppression of a people who are not Jews, and that is a situation you find moral and ethical, and something you fully support?

I see no evidence that the Jews anywhere are oppressing anybody who isn't try to blow up or kidnap Jews on busses or in crowded markets or who isn't lobbing shells into Israeli neighborhoods. I think the more than 1 million Palestinians who chose to stay in Israel and became Israeli citizens do not feel any manner of oppression. I think if other Palestinians would acknowledge Israel's right to exist and pledge to be responsible and peaceful neighbors of Israel they would find the Israelis to be far better friend to them than their leaders are.

But setting that aside, try to focus on the Jews for a moment and what happens to them when many millions of Arabs who have pledged to exterminate them have the opportunity and license to do exactly that? You are asking them to give up the only homeland they have. What would you do if you were them?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Fine, thanks.

So why exactly do you quote the population of some 20 Arab countries to those of Jews all all over the world, included in that number Jews who even don't practise there religion but not differentiating religious beliefs or non-beliefs in the Arabian countries?

Because it is not relative to the discussion Walter.

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Foxfyre wrote:

There are 280 million Arabs and that doesn't even count the majority populations of Egypt and Iran who are technically not Arabs but who would like to see Israel removed from the Earth.

According to your link these countries are included in that number:

Quote:

Countries covered by the report
Algeria
Bahrain
Egypt
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Republic of Yemen

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

It would definitely solve the Palestinian problem all right. But the Jews would no longer have a homeland and no place to go where they could ensure that they could 'just be Jews' in peace. That's assuming that Israeli Jews who stayed would be allowed to survive at all.

I know of only one other group of human beings in the world who insist that they must have exclusive control of any part of the world so that they can "just be themselves" - and that is Saudi Arabia. Like Zionism, the worldview of Wahabbi Moslems is a relic of another age and a thing that flies in the face of the basic principles of the modern world.

The truth is that there are about as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel, and they appear to be doing allright. In addition they appear to have little motivation to emigrate to Israel.

More importantly, the sappy repetition of this "one little place in the world where we can be ourselves" bit evades the fundamental point of Israel's illegal and unjust attempts to expand its borders into the occupied territories and drive the inhabitants out of their land. Israel still has effective control over the West Bank more than 40 years after their conquest of it, and the people there have no political voice whatever in the Israeli government. Israel hides behind the fiction of Palestinian "independence" in the territory beyond the wall. However, as we have seen that "independence" is a mirage.

This is the real central issue of the conflict. Sadly 40+ years of Israeli military occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinian people have likely so radicalized them that no relatively easy solution is now possible. Zionists cynically point to the hostility of the Palestinians (which they have so systematically cultivated) and ask the world what they can do in the face of such anger. The only practical and just answer is, end the injustice and deal with the consequences of your own actions.

I know what your opinions on this are George, and I have found myself at times defending your version of the history. Smile

But can you think of any other cohesive group in the world who have been as persistently persecuted, suffered genocide, and/or been routed from their homes, means of livelihood, and/or places of worship and/or denied rights as the Jews have for millenia?

So sappy as it sounds to you, is there no room in the social fabric for them to have one tiny plot of land on Earth where they do not have to worry about being discriminated against and/or persecuted because they are Jews?

Do you honestly think the Jews will receive a fair shake under majority Arab rule in Israel or Palestine or whatever they would call a new integrated state? Is there any other Arab country that gives Jews full rights to call the shots on their own behalf?

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Foxfyre wrote:

But setting that aside, try to focus on the Jews for a moment and what happens to them when many millions of Arabs who have pledged to exterminate them have the opportunity and license to do exactly that? You are asking them to give up the only homeland they have. What would you do if you were them?

Foxfire,

Please explain to us what might be a realistic alternative to an Israeli accomodation with the Palestinians - one that conforms to the political norms for the modern world.

Given the intransigence of her Moslem neighbors and the huge disparity in population growth rates between them and Israel, just what is likely to be required to maintain the status quo as the future evolves and the relative size of the Jewish population of both Israel and the region grows smaller and smaller?

Should the United States continue its guarantee of security for Israel, even though the national security, political and economic cost to us is large and growing? Should we continue a trade regime with Israel that is more favorable (to them) than any other country in the world (including our immediate neighbors)? Should we continue sending most of our economic aid to Israel - one of the most advanced economies in the world? Should we continue the forced purchase of U.S. military equipment from Israeli firms and the huge credits we give them annually for their own defense shopping here? Should we continue the very large bribes (aid) we send annually to Egypt as a condition of their continued peace with Israel? Should we allow ourselves to be the economic gurantor of any future peace deal among the parties, while we have so many other growing priorities?

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The last time I looked, the Jews, in Muslim eyes, are infidels. The Koran calls for the death of infidels. Thus, it is hard to imagine that Israel would, or could, agree to a single state encompassing their area.

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Foxfyre wrote:

But can you think of any other cohesive group in the world who have been as persistently persecuted, suffered genocide, and/or been routed from their homes, means of livelihood, and/or places of worship and/or denied rights as the Jews have for millenia?

In the first place the persecutions of Jews have been episodic, and not continuous things extended over millenia - there were long periods of Jewish growth and prosperity in many regions. The chronicle of human persecution and oppression is very long indeed. Cananites, Carthaginians, Gnostic heretics in France, Poles, Armenians, Irish, Greeks, Crimean Tatars, Ibos (Nigeria), the native peoples of the Americas and Australia, Protestants, Catholics, Moslems, Tibetans -- all have at various times and places suffered mass murder, persecution, and oppression. And my list barely scratches the surface.

Foxfyre wrote:

So sappy as it sounds to you, is there no room in the social fabric for them to have one tiny plot of land on Earth where they do not have to worry about being discriminated against and/or persecuted because they are Jews?

I have no problem with that at all -- as long as in maintaining and expanding it, they don't inflict on others the same evils they use to rationalize their special need.

Foxfyre wrote:

Do you honestly think the Jews will receive a fair shake under majority Arab rule in Israel or Palestine or whatever they would call a new integrated state? Is there any other Arab country that gives Jews full rights to call the shots on their own behalf?

A much more important question is this -- Do you honestly think that Israel can long survive on its own under the present circumstances? Can you give us any examples of states that were built on the backs of permanently oppressed peoples (who greatly outnumbered the favored few) that have endured for a very long time?

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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