ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

InfraBlue wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
Israel...the place where "Jews can be Jews".

Perhaps we should have other enclaves for specific religions. By that logic Jerusalem is the Holy City where Christians can be Christians.

Carrying this logic further, Germany is the place where Aryans can be Aryans.

You win!

Cycloptichorn

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Do I win if I don't actually say the N word?

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InfraBlue wrote:

Do I win if I don't actually say the N word?

Yup

Cycloptichorn

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Damn

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georgeob1 wrote:

I agree with the above. However, given the relative differences in female fertility, in the decades or centurys which may pass before a solution is found or evolves, the population of Israel proper will likely have a decisive majority of non-Jews and that of Israel/Palestine (Israel + Occupied Territories) will be less than 10% Jewish.

Even the Israeli CBS reports the growth rate of the Israeli Arab population is almost twice that of Israeli Jews - and the gap in rates is widening. If the occupied territories are included the differences are even wider.

It seems to me that it would be wise for Israel to recognize the futility of attempting to preserve a Jewish state in perpetuity, and to waste no time in working out a mutually beneficial accomodation with her neighbors.

George, you don't mention the timeline for this happening. It may be many, many, years before this is a problem. Moreover, you should not include occupied areas in the equation, because they will be fenced off and never part of Israel.

At some point, Jews in Israel may be forced to conclude that the state must be partitioned, with one of the new states being non-Muslim. Throughout the ME, Muslims have been shown to be almost completely intolerant of non-Muslims.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Israel...the place where "Jews can be Jews".

Perhaps we should have other enclaves for specific religions. By that logic Jerusalem is the Holy City where Christians can be Christians.

Carrying this logic further, Germany is the place where Aryans can be Aryans.

You win!

Cycloptichorn

Your being fascetious? Aryans were the people that invaded from the north of India, and pushed the Indian Dravidians south. Indians may claim to be descended from a people called Aryans, but the Nazis co-opted that term to refer to their concept of a superior race. Germans are descended from the same Germanic tribes that ultimately sacked Rome, and during WWI the anti-German hysteria in the US was calling Germans "the Huns." There ain't no Aryans in Germany. Just a lot of Germans who might seem superior to some other Europeans, since their culture emphasizes industriousness and achievement on a personal level.

Jews can be Jews in the United States. The inference is that Jews can be Jews "openly," without concern about rowdy anti-Semites. Naturally, that might not apply in all parts of the U.S., but that applies to other groups too in some parts of the U.S.

Jews can be Jews in Israel means more than just their religion. I believe it would imply almost a time travel thing, where a Jew can live as though they are in Israel in the pre-Roman occupation time. It's sort of like living in the 1950's on a tree-lined street, where all the homes were decorated with Christmas decorations during December. There was no need to be aware then of any non-Christian groups. For those people that may have been an idealized time. That's what I believe Israel may represent for some Jews.

I find it so interesting that some non-Jews just love to debate over Jews and how they should exist in the world. Actually, it's fascinating. I find it hard to believe that all the banter may not stem from some deep unconscious fear of what Jews can do if they were ever allowed to live in peace. (In other words, always keep them occupied with survival issues, so they don't compete with their neighbors too well.)

Personally, I think the only way the world will allow Jews to live in peace is if they all sign some document to "assimilate" within a certain amount of time. That's just my personal opinion, since two millenia of obsessing over Jews must reflect something?

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Following WWII, there were many Jewish DP's (displaced persons). Further, many of the countries in the ME were persecuting and driving out their Jewish populations. These people, naturally, flocked to Israel. They didn't go to Israel so that Jews could be Jews.

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Advocate wrote:

Following WWII, there were many Jewish DP's (displaced persons). Further, many of the countries in the ME were persecuting and driving out their Jewish populations. These people, naturally, flocked to Israel. They didn't go to Israel so that Jews could be Jews.

Great point! In effect, they went to Israel as the one place they could live as humans, Europe having shown itself to be allergic (said euphemistically) to Jews. So now that there is an EU, Europeans would like to welcome back all those Jews?

I think your above point succinctly explains why Israel is needed.

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Foofie wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Following WWII, there were many Jewish DP's (displaced persons). Further, many of the countries in the ME were persecuting and driving out their Jewish populations. These people, naturally, flocked to Israel. They didn't go to Israel so that Jews could be Jews.

Great point! In effect, they went to Israel as the one place they could live as humans, Europe having shown itself to be allergic (said euphemistically) to Jews. So now that there is an EU, Europeans would like to welcome back all those Jews?

I think your above point succinctly explains why Israel is needed.

No instead it succinctly explains why a homeland for Jews was needed in 1948. Unfortunately the state that resulted showed itself, after the 1967 war, to be a systematic practicioner of precisely the same intolerance and oppression, formerly inflicted on European Jews, and that it once used to rationalize the need for its creation. Application of the same logic now requires further changes.

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Foofie wrote:

Jews can be Jews in the United States. The inference is that Jews can be Jews "openly," without concern about rowdy anti-Semites.

Thank you Foofie. Some who cannot refute the statement will lift a few words out of context in order to better attack or ridicule them. And then there are some who have sufficient intellectual honesty to actually read and respond to what is said.

As a refresher here is my actual quote in context:

Quote:

Israel is definitely guilty of intending to preserve one tiny spot on the planet where Jews can be Jews in complete safety with no discrimination including openly practicing their religious faith if they want to. There is room to discuss whether it is morally acceptable for them to retain a majority so that they can ensure a place where Jews are safe. I believe you disagree with the principle while I support it.

I then went on to discuss those places where circumstances changed for the Jews requiring them to leave. They have little fear of that happening in Israel as long as Israel remains a haven for Jews.

Maybe George is right that Arabs will out produce the Jews so that the Arab minority in Israel will eventually overtake the Jews. I expect that is a risk the Jews are willing to take. If the sources I posted are right, the Jews did invite the Palestinians to become citizens back then. More than a million Arabs, presumably mostly Palestinians, currently reside in Israel as peaceful Israeli citizens who are not discriminated against. I am quite certain that Ican and others are correct that should Israel relinquish their demographic Jewish majority in Israel, they would also lose their ability to ensure that Jews would not be discriminated against.

(As an aside - estimate current Jewish population is 12 to 13 million by some count, up to 17 million by others. Estimated at around 11 million in 1900. About 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust which would have been around half the existing population allowing for a increase in population since 1900. It would seem that the Jews are having babies and increasing their numbers pretty well.)

Infrablue is correct, however, that I did misspeak when I said a small minority of Jews reside in Israel. I would have been correct had I said a small majority resided there when the UN consigned Israel as a homeland for the Jews. Since that time the exodus of Jews from other places has diminished their numbers in Europe et al while swelling the population of Israel. That there are approximately as many Jews in the USA as there are in Israel does testify to the fact that Jews fear little or no discrimination as Jews here.

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Foxfyre wrote:

(As an aside - estimate current Jewish population is 12 to 13 million by some count, up to 17 million by others. Estimated at around 11 million in 1900. About 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust which would have been around half the existing population allowing for a increase in population since 1900. It would seem that the Jews are having babies and increasing their numbers pretty well.)

According to Department of Jewish Zionist Education website, the Jewish population (worldwide) was 11,000,000 on 1945, May 1 and 13,296,100 on 2002, Jan. 1 (data taken from Sergio DellaPergola, "World Jewish Population 2002", American Jewish Year Book, 102, New York, 2002 )

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Following WWII, there were many Jewish DP's (displaced persons). Further, many of the countries in the ME were persecuting and driving out their Jewish populations. These people, naturally, flocked to Israel. They didn't go to Israel so that Jews could be Jews.

Great point! In effect, they went to Israel as the one place they could live as humans, Europe having shown itself to be allergic (said euphemistically) to Jews. So now that there is an EU, Europeans would like to welcome back all those Jews?

I think your above point succinctly explains why Israel is needed.

No instead it succinctly explains why a homeland for Jews was needed in 1948. Unfortunately the state that resulted showed itself, after the 1967 war, to be a systematic practicioner of precisely the same intolerance and oppression, formerly inflicted on European Jews, and that it once used to rationalize the need for its creation. Application of the same logic now requires further changes.

Though less physically threatened than were the Jews, the Pilgrims otherwise immigrated to America for the same principle that Jews immigrated to Israel. The Pilgrims wanted freedom to practice their religion as they saw fit and to live their lives as they chose to live them. Unlike the Jews, however, who did afford religious freedom to non-Jews in Israel, the Pilgrims had no intention of allowing religious freedom to anybody. You did it their way or no way. Other religious groups who subsequently moved in were no more charitable to people of other religious beliefs.

In two hundred years, the United States has evolved from a narrow-minded group of religionists, many of whom were willing to accept and utilize slavery of other human beings, to a country of complete religious tolerance that affords human rights equally to all people. I personally think the USA needs to know its history, but I think it can feel pretty darn proud that it was able to overcome it and become a place that many more hundreds of millions or billions would live if they could. Most people think it is a little silly to judge us now on what we once were.

Israel tried to accomodate the Palestinians in Israel and were rebuffed. They have overcome their past in far less time than it took the United States. I think they should not be judged now on what they once were.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
(As an aside - estimate current Jewish population is 12 to 13 million by some count, up to 17 million by others. Estimated at around 11 million in 1900. About 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust which would have been around half the existing population allowing for a increase in population since 1900. It would seem that the Jews are having babies and increasing their numbers pretty well.)

According to Department of Jewish Zionist Education website, the Jewish population (worldwide) was 11,000,000 on 1945, May 1 and 13,296,100 on 2002, Jan. 1 (data taken from Sergio DellaPergola, "World Jewish Population 2002", American Jewish Year Book, 102, New York, 2002 )

Wow, those pograms in Russia and elsewhere were taking a terrible toll then weren't they.

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JEWISH POPULATION OF EUROPE IN 1945 summarises that perfectly.

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In fact Protestant Dissenters and Catholics faced rather serious prosecution in 16th & 17th century England. One of the American Colonies did practice - and enact legislation guaranteeing - religious Tolerance - Maryland.

While there is no doubt about the hypocrisy of the American colonists, I don't think you can make a case for the application 17th century political standards among modern states today.

The assertion that in order to escape the evils of persecution it is necessary (or justifiable) for Israelis to persecute and oppress the previous (and present) inhabitants of greater Palestine, flies in the face of any comprehensible political or moral standard - not to mention common sense.

It is simply factual that Israel is rapidly losing support and sympathy throughout the modern world and in the United States in particular. In addition it is also a fact that over the many decades that Foofie asserts will be required for a peaceable solution to evolve under the present conditions, that the Jewish population of the region will fall from its present (roughly) 50% to about 10%, and in Israel proper from about 70% to about 40% -- all based on current demographic trends.

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I personally find the position that, if one is not pro-Israel, they must be anti-semitic, to be particularly galling.

Sins suffered in the past do not immunize one from criticism in the present.

Cycloptichorn

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I have rarely come upon a person who is so consistently wrong as is George. Israel has not persecuted Pals and, in fact, has a very contented population of Pal citizens living within its borders.

To George, Cyclo, and CI, Israel persecutes when it defends itself from bombs, rockets, etc.

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Advocate wrote:

I have rarely come upon a person who is so consistently wrong as is George. Israel has not persecuted Pals and, in fact, has a very contented population of Pal citizens living within its borders.

To George, Cyclo, and CI, Israel persecutes when it defends itself from bombs, rockets, etc.

Like George Bush (and Ican) you don't seem to understand the difference between defense and offense.

Cycloptichorn

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
(As an aside - estimate current Jewish population is 12 to 13 million by some count, up to 17 million by others. Estimated at around 11 million in 1900. About 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust which would have been around half the existing population allowing for a increase in population since 1900. It would seem that the Jews are having babies and increasing their numbers pretty well.)

According to Department of Jewish Zionist Education website, the Jewish population (worldwide) was 11,000,000 on 1945, May 1 and 13,296,100 on 2002, Jan. 1 (data taken from Sergio DellaPergola, "World Jewish Population 2002", American Jewish Year Book, 102, New York, 2002 )

Valter, you are not allowing for assimilation. That is a variable one should take into account. So, while in 1939 the worldwide (I yearn to say within the Galaxy) population of Jews was somewhere between 17 and 18 million, and then subtracting six million for the Final Solution leaves around 11 or 12 million. The 13.29 million in 2002 comes from those 1945 Jews that they and their families remained as Jews until 2002. Running interference are the Jews from the 1945 census, or their children, that assimilated through marriage. As I've said before, for every Jewish boy that doesn't want to marry a girl like his Jewish mother, there's a Christian girl that doesn't want to marry a boy like her Gentile father.

In the U.S., since so many young secular Jews go to college, they oftentimes meet nice Christians that they do marry (I believe the rate of intermarriage is greater for Jewish boys than Jewish girls, but that might change in the future, if it hasn't already). I've read that aside from being oftentimes "progressively liberal," the young Jewish person is often perceived as a "helpmate" in marriage. Sometimes a "progressively liberal" young Christian comes from a "conservative non-progressive" family and finds a "progressively liberal" Jewish family quite attractive. My point is, what Hitler's guns and gas couldn't do, may be achieved through Cupid.

Jews know this, so that is why for Jews to exist, into the future, their only two avenues is either religious orthodoxy, and/or Israel remaining a Jewish State.

Regardless, what I've heard is that while there is a diminishing population of Jews in the U.S., there is a geometrically increasing population of people that have a "Jewish relative." That in itself is a sort of positive; however, some Christians are sort of then adopting Judaism with their Christianity, so the two faiths are becoming an amalgam in some circles. But that is America!

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georgeob1 wrote:

...
... a homeland for Jews was needed in 1948. Unfortunately the state that resulted showed itself, after the 1967 war, to be a systematic practicioner of precisely the same intolerance and oppression, formerly inflicted on European Jews, and that it once used to rationalize the need for its creation. Application of the same logic now requires further changes.

In the 1967 war, the Israeli Jews were convinced that in order to survive they better make a pre-emptive attack on all the armies massing on their borders. After the Israelis won the 1967 war, the Jews had damn good reasons for fearing that they better maintain their defences in order to continue to survive. One of the ways they decided to maintain their defences was to prohibit those formally Israeli Arabs that fled from Israel at the start of the 1967 war, from returning to Israel. However, they remained content with those Israeli Arabs that had not fled.

If I recall correctly, you predicted that unless the Israelis join with the Palestinian Arabs to form one state in Palestine, Israel would eventually be destroyed by the Palestinian Arabs. If your prediction is correct, then the Israelis are truly between a razor and a sharp place. For if they adopt your recommendation to form one Palestinian state with the Palestinian Arabs, Israel and its jewish society will likewise be destroyed.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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