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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:01 pm
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, I bet that even some of your best friends are Jewish.

You say that a large part of your family is Jewish, with many being Israeli, and that most [of the latter] are disgusted with the actions of their country. That is definitely patent BS.


talking out your ass, once again.

If you would bother to look at approval ratings for the current gov't in Israel you would note that they are in the tank. Many Israelis have a big problem with the way things are being done these days.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


No, I can't tell. B/c you don't seem to know much about America at all if you claim that nobody claims that the WASPs took a country 'for ourselves.' And if we defined 'for ourselves' in the way that the Jews did, it's likely that those of other races and religions wouldn't be allowed citizenship or voting rights. And we did face some of those problems. But what makes America great is our ability to overcome our inherent fear and prejudice. Israel will eventually do the same.

Through marriage a large part of my family is Jewish, many are Israeli, and most are disgusted with the actions of their government re: the Palestinians. I reject your contention that I am uninformed on this topic in its' whole.

Cycloptichorn


No. Protestant America was not welcoming to Catholics until there was an industrial revolution, and that allowed them to have workers for the assembly lines, while WASP's elevated themselves to a "managerial class." Even the Irish that were here early were treated poorly with signs on factories that said, "Dogs and Irish Need Not Apply." Italians were considered non-White, as were Irish originally. Slavic people were considered less intelligent. The Protestants were not exactly the nicest hosts, and then closed the gates in 1924 with an anti-European immigration mood of the country. But, I still say God bless America, since I do find WASP's adorable, and beauty is everything (they often look like they just stepped out of an LL Bean catalog).

But, since part of your family is Jewish, I won't antagonize you for their benefit. I want you to be in a good mood, if you are invited to a Seder this spring. Have a lovely day.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:06 pm
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


No, I can't tell. B/c you don't seem to know much about America at all if you claim that nobody claims that the WASPs took a country 'for ourselves.' And if we defined 'for ourselves' in the way that the Jews did, it's likely that those of other races and religions wouldn't be allowed citizenship or voting rights. And we did face some of those problems. But what makes America great is our ability to overcome our inherent fear and prejudice. Israel will eventually do the same.

Through marriage a large part of my family is Jewish, many are Israeli, and most are disgusted with the actions of their government re: the Palestinians. I reject your contention that I am uninformed on this topic in its' whole.

Cycloptichorn



No. Protestant America was not welcoming to Catholics until there was an industrial revolution, and that allowed them to have workers for the assembly lines, while WASP's elevated themselves to a "managerial class." Even the Irish that were here early were treated poorly with signs on factories that said, "Dogs and Irish Need Not Apply." Italians were considered non-White, as were Irish originally. Slavic people were considered less intelligent. The Protestants were not exactly the nicest hosts, and then closed the gates in 1924 with an anti-European immigration mood of the country. But, I still say God bless America, since I do find WASP's adorable, and beauty is everything (they often look like they just stepped out of an LL Bean catalog).

But, since part of your family is Jewish, I won't antagonize you for their benefit. I want you to be in a good mood, if you are invited to a Seder this spring. Have a lovely day.



But you would be willing to antagonize me, if they weren't Jewish?

I think you confirm your biases unintentionally every time you post. I think you are an anti-non-semite.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:10 pm
The low approval ratings are probably because Israel has been insufficiently harsh with its Pal enemies.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:11 pm
Advocate wrote:
The low approval ratings are probably because Israel has been insufficiently harsh with its Pal enemies.


I think that while you may not be a bad person, you are showing the signs of it. Bloodthirsty for more Pal blood, aren't ya?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


No, I can't tell. B/c you don't seem to know much about America at all if you claim that nobody claims that the WASPs took a country 'for ourselves.' And if we defined 'for ourselves' in the way that the Jews did, it's likely that those of other races and religions wouldn't be allowed citizenship or voting rights. And we did face some of those problems. But what makes America great is our ability to overcome our inherent fear and prejudice. Israel will eventually do the same.

Through marriage a large part of my family is Jewish, many are Israeli, and most are disgusted with the actions of their government re: the Palestinians. I reject your contention that I am uninformed on this topic in its' whole.

Cycloptichorn



No. Protestant America was not welcoming to Catholics until there was an industrial revolution, and that allowed them to have workers for the assembly lines, while WASP's elevated themselves to a "managerial class." Even the Irish that were here early were treated poorly with signs on factories that said, "Dogs and Irish Need Not Apply." Italians were considered non-White, as were Irish originally. Slavic people were considered less intelligent. The Protestants were not exactly the nicest hosts, and then closed the gates in 1924 with an anti-European immigration mood of the country. But, I still say God bless America, since I do find WASP's adorable, and beauty is everything (they often look like they just stepped out of an LL Bean catalog).

But, since part of your family is Jewish, I won't antagonize you for their benefit. I want you to be in a good mood, if you are invited to a Seder this spring. Have a lovely day.



But you would be willing to antagonize me, if they weren't Jewish?

I think you confirm your biases unintentionally every time you post. I think you are an anti-non-semite.

Cycloptichorn


That sounds like the Seinfeld episode where the accusation was that someone was an anti-Dentite.

"But you would be willing to antagonize me, if they weren't Jewish?" The honest answer is no, but I likely have more empathy towards them, because they are. Do you think only Catholics, Irish, Italians, Germans, Poles, WASP's, Asians, the whole remaining world, can be clannish, and Jews shouldn't be? Are you naive?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:18 pm
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


No, I can't tell. B/c you don't seem to know much about America at all if you claim that nobody claims that the WASPs took a country 'for ourselves.' And if we defined 'for ourselves' in the way that the Jews did, it's likely that those of other races and religions wouldn't be allowed citizenship or voting rights. And we did face some of those problems. But what makes America great is our ability to overcome our inherent fear and prejudice. Israel will eventually do the same.

Through marriage a large part of my family is Jewish, many are Israeli, and most are disgusted with the actions of their government re: the Palestinians. I reject your contention that I am uninformed on this topic in its' whole.

Cycloptichorn



No. Protestant America was not welcoming to Catholics until there was an industrial revolution, and that allowed them to have workers for the assembly lines, while WASP's elevated themselves to a "managerial class." Even the Irish that were here early were treated poorly with signs on factories that said, "Dogs and Irish Need Not Apply." Italians were considered non-White, as were Irish originally. Slavic people were considered less intelligent. The Protestants were not exactly the nicest hosts, and then closed the gates in 1924 with an anti-European immigration mood of the country. But, I still say God bless America, since I do find WASP's adorable, and beauty is everything (they often look like they just stepped out of an LL Bean catalog).

But, since part of your family is Jewish, I won't antagonize you for their benefit. I want you to be in a good mood, if you are invited to a Seder this spring. Have a lovely day.



But you would be willing to antagonize me, if they weren't Jewish?

I think you confirm your biases unintentionally every time you post. I think you are an anti-non-semite.

Cycloptichorn


That sounds like the Seinfeld episode where the accusation was that someone was an anti-Dentite.

"But you would be willing to antagonize me, if they weren't Jewish?" The honest answer is no, but I likely have more empathy towards them, because they are. Do you think only Catholics, Irish, Italians, Germans, Poles, WASP's, Asians, the whole remaining world, can be clannish, and Jews shouldn't be? Are you naive?


I don't support anyone being clannish. I think that it is the old way, and that the whole point of America is to change that.

And I was thinking of the anti-dentite thing when I wrote that, I'm happy that you got the joke Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 02:04 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
The low approval ratings are probably because Israel has been insufficiently harsh with its Pal enemies.


I think that while you may not be a bad person, you are showing the signs of it. Bloodthirsty for more Pal blood, aren't ya?

Cycloptichorn


The inference is that Israel is bloodthirsty for defending itself and, sometimes, even retaliating. Absurd!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 02:19 pm
Advocate wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
The low approval ratings are probably because Israel has been insufficiently harsh with its Pal enemies.


I think that while you may not be a bad person, you are showing the signs of it. Bloodthirsty for more Pal blood, aren't ya?

Cycloptichorn


The inference is that Israel is bloodthirsty for defending itself and, sometimes, even retaliating. Absurd!


Maybe not Israel, but you personally are.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 07:42 pm
Eureka! That's the solution! Retaliation by the Israeli Jews should be limited. They should be limited to killing no more Palestinian Arabs than the number of Israeli Jews killed by the Palestinian Arabs. Let's all be fair about this! When the Israeli Jews fail to meet that standard, the Palestinian Arabs should be permitted to match the surplus killed by the Israeli Jews with their own additional killing of that number of Israeli Jews equal to that surplus.

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:06 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Eureka! That's the solution! Retaliation by the Israeli Jews should be limited. They should be limited to killing no more Palestinian Arabs than the number of Israeli Jews killed by the Palestinian Arabs. Let's all be fair about this! When the Israeli Jews fail to meet that standard, the Palestinian Arabs should be permitted to match the surplus killed by the Israeli Jews with their own additional killing of that number of Israeli Jews equal to that surplus.

Rolling Eyes


I believe much thought on this thread ignores the fact that the situation in Israel and the Palestinian Territories cannot be "fixed" quickly. It might last for decades, or centuries. I think if there is any winner, it will be the one with the most patience. Or, there won't be a winner. Or, there won't be a win-win situation. I don't think anything can be predicted there.

And, even if there was some eventual two state solution, what are the odds that the Palestinian state would have some political turmoil between rival factions? What no one seems to have mentioned is that the Israeli Arabs have seats in the Israeli Knesset (parliament) and that community seems to be fairly quiet. Perhaps, they are living better than their raucous, angry brethren that are enjoying their autonomy from the Jews?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:30 pm
I agree with the above. However, given the relative differences in female fertility, in the decades or centurys which may pass before a solution is found or evolves, the population of Israel proper will likely have a decisive majority of non-Jews and that of Israel/Palestine (Israel + Occupied Territories) will be less than 10% Jewish.

Even the Israeli CBS reports the growth rate of the Israeli Arab population is almost twice that of Israeli Jews - and the gap in rates is widening. If the occupied territories are included the differences are even wider.

It seems to me that it would be wise for Israel to recognize the futility of attempting to preserve a Jewish state in perpetuity, and to waste no time in working out a mutually beneficial accomodation with her neighbors.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:37 pm
Foofie wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Eureka! That's the solution! Retaliation by the Israeli Jews should be limited. They should be limited to killing no more Palestinian Arabs than the number of Israeli Jews killed by the Palestinian Arabs. Let's all be fair about this! When the Israeli Jews fail to meet that standard, the Palestinian Arabs should be permitted to match the surplus killed by the Israeli Jews with their own additional killing of that number of Israeli Jews equal to that surplus.

Rolling Eyes


I believe much thought on this thread ignores the fact that the situation in Israel and the Palestinian Territories cannot be "fixed" quickly. It might last for decades, or centuries. I think if there is any winner, it will be the one with the most patience. Or, there won't be a winner. Or, there won't be a win-win situation. I don't think anything can be predicted there.

And, even if there was some eventual two state solution, what are the odds that the Palestinian state would have some political turmoil between rival factions? What no one seems to have mentioned is that the Israeli Arabs have seats in the Israeli Knesset (parliament) and that community seems to be fairly quiet. Perhaps, they are living better than their raucous, angry brethren that are enjoying their autonomy from the Jews?

Foofie, my proposed solution is also, ofcourse, not really a solution. It's merely a simplistic mockery of arguments others here have made to justify their fault finding of Israel, while ignoring the faults of the Palestinian Arabs.

Your point on the otherhand is a source of real insight for the Palestinian Arabs. If Israel is no damn good as they claim, then why in the name of Allah do so many of Israel's Arabs participate in Israel's government and continue to retain their freedoms and property, instead of running for Israel's borders like so many other Palestinian Arabs did?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:48 pm
ican wrote: Foofie, my proposed solution is also, ofcourse, not really a solution. It's merely a simplistic mockery of arguments others here have made to justify their fault finding of Israel, while ignoring the faults of the Palestinian Arabs.

It's obvious ican hasn't been reading most of the posts - or he has a blind eye when anyone suggests both the Palestinians and the Jews are responsible to moderate their extremes, provide legal rights to the Palestinians, and provide equal treatment to the Palestinians - not second-class citizenry. The Palestinians must stop the violence by helping the Israelis arrest active and prospective terrorists.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 08:56 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I agree with the above. However, given the relative differences in female fertility, in the decades or centurys which may pass before a solution is found or evolves, the population of Israel proper will likely have a decisive majority of non-Jews and that of Israel/Palestine (Israel + Occupied Territories) will be less than 10% Jewish.

Even the Israeli CBS reports the growth rate of the Israeli Arab population is almost twice that of Israeli Jews - and the gap in rates is widening. If the occupied territories are included the differences are even wider.

It seems to me that it would be wise for Israel to recognize the futility of attempting to preserve a Jewish state in perpetuity, and to waste no time in working out a mutually beneficial accomodation with her neighbors.


The 10% you reference above I find very interesting, since that also represents the current population of Jews in NYC (it used to be 25% from about 1920 to 1960, give or take five years; and the Irish/Irish-American population at the same time was 33%. Ah, the good old days).

Anyway, if you don't see the inference, I better whisper it - It don't matter, I believe the Jews will still be the WASP's of Israel. Perhaps, that's what was meant to be - another urban center for the world to visit, with a Jewish community?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 09:18 pm
You can't be serious. The relationships of American Jews & Gentiles are not at all of the same character as those between Jews and Arabs in greater Palestine. Moreover the general tolerance of the supposed Jewish character of New York arises from the equality of all citizens and not a legally sanctioned priviledged position for Jews.

You are merely peddling amusing evasions of some very grim facts facing those who wish to cling to the Zionist dream. The absurd notion of 'a tiny sliver of the earth where Jews can (perpetually) be Jews (and be served by a submissive population of hod carriers who will be forever content with a minority position in the state - regardless of their relative numbers) -- in short a special place where Jews can forever occupy a state-sanctioned position of relative priviledge -- defies common sense and reason.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 10:10 pm
foxfyre wrote:
Yup. A very small percentage of the Jewish population of the world live in Israel.


Um, I don't know what you mean by "small," but according to the Jewish Virtual Library more than 40% of the Jewish population of the world live in Israel alone. Slightly less live in the US, and a truly small percentage live in other places in the world.

http://home.elp.rr.com/infrablues/Virtual%20Jewish%20Library%20Jewish%20population%20of%20the%20world.GIF
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 10:41 pm
foxfyre, quoting the Jewish virtual Library wrote:
The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons. . .


The JVL fails to mention the other major and more sinister reason for the Arab flight there: the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Haganah, the Zionists para-military organization which was the precursor to the Israel Defense Forces. The Israeli historian, Benny Morris, talked about some of the facts he brings up in his book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited," in an Ha'aretz interview in January of 2004: "There were twenty-four small scale massacres perpetrated by the Israeli forces in 1948. Morris says, "in some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

There was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order in Operation Hiram. "One of the revelations in the book [The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004] is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth."

As Rashid Khalidi writes in his book The Iron Cage, "The flight of the Palestinian population from areas conquered by the Haganah and other Jewish forces increased under the impact of the shock of the Deir Yasin massacre, growing to a flood with the fall of Tiberias, Haifa, Jaffa, and other towns later in April and into May."

One thing is the words expressed by the Zionist leadership about "doing everything in their power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both," quite another is their actions, ethnically cleansing the portion of Palestine that fell under their control during The Catastrophe of 1948 of a majority of its Arab population.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 10:50 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
Israel...the place where "Jews can be Jews". Laughing

Perhaps we should have other enclaves for specific religions. By that logic Jerusalem is the Holy City where Christians can be Christians.


Carrying this logic further, Germany is the place where Aryans can be Aryans.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 11:00 pm
[quote='foofie"]WASP's took an entire continent for themselves.[/quote]

Where in the entirety of the political manifestos of that continent does it say that that continent is the homeland for White Anglo Saxon Protestants, again?
0 Replies
 
 

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