ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Foofie,

The modern world is erasing many national cultures and traditions - Jews are hardly alone in this. Nowhere has this process gone on for so long and moved so swiftly as in America.

Americans of German, Irish, Polish, Italian and many other extractions have all gone through the same process, gradually losing their ethnic identity over three generations or so. The same process has affected Jews in this country, only more slowly. Certainly we have seen no mass migration of Amnerican Jews to Israel. This doesn't appear to support your argument.

Europe is beginning to discover the same process as immigration from former colonies, North Africa and even Eastern Europe provides needed sources of labor for the recipient countries and new hope for the immigrants themselves.

Indeed Israel itself encouraged mass immigration of presumed Jews from the Soviet Union, knowingly applying rather loose standards for the ethnic background & identity of highly assimilated 'Jews' from the socialist paradise - mostly to provide a demographic bulwark against the rapidly growing Palestinian populations of both Israel itself and the occupied territories. Even there "Jewishness" comes in diverse varieties, and, increasingly without the unifying factor of active religious observance.

Now that the mass sources of Aliya appear to be exhausted, I find it hard to believe that Israel will long be able to maintain an enduring position in defiance of these pressures of the modern world - not to mention the demographic pressures from her immediate neighbors.

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I think that anyone who wishes to live in a society comprised of their own people, and them only, is promoting a form of racism and intolerance. And I have no desire to support them in any way. I don't wish to see Israel destroyed but I would never give them a red cent to support their apartheid ways.

Sorry to tell you, Foofie and Adv., but you are just like every other person on the planet, no better and no worse. The sooner that Jews accept that their religion is simply one among many and not inherently special in any way, the better for them - and for all of us.

Cycloptichorn

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foofie,

The modern world is erasing many national cultures and traditions - Jews are hardly alone in this. Nowhere has this process gone on for so long and moved so swiftly as in America.

Americans of German, Irish, Polish, Italian and many other extractions have all gone through the same process, gradually losing their ethnic identity over three generations or so. The same process has affected Jews in this country, only more slowly. Certainly we have seen no mass migration of Amnerican Jews to Israel. This doesn't appear to support your argument.

Europe is beginning to discover the same process as immigration from former colonies, North Africa and even Eastern Europe provides needed sources of labor for the recipient countries and new hope for the immigrants themselves.

Indeed Israel itself encouraged mass immigration of presumed Jews from the Soviet Union, knowingly applying rather loose standards for the ethnic background & identity of highly assimilated 'Jews' from the socialist paradise - mostly to provide a demographic bulwark against the rapidly growing Palestinian populations of both Israel itself and the occupied territories. Even there "Jewishness" comes in diverse varieties, and, increasingly without the unifying factor of active religious observance.

Now that the mass sources of Aliya appear to be exhausted, I find it hard to believe that Israel will long be able to maintain an enduring position in defiance of these pressures of the modern world - not to mention the demographic pressures from her immediate neighbors.

I think I wasn't clear. American Jews, for the most part will stay in America. And, they mostly are fully aware that eventually their respective family, through assimilation, won't be Jewish. It might take 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years or more, but that's the known eventuality for secular American Jews. However, they want to think Jews as a group will survive (in the world), so most want Israel to survive as a Jewish Zionist country.

All the assimilating "German, Irish, Polish, Italian and many other extractions" you mention above have a Germany, Ireland, Poland, Italy, etc. to feel that their respective ethnic group will not go to oblivion. That's the difference. Tell me where I'm confusing you?

And the "pressures of the modern world" you mention above is just today's version of anti-Semitism in the eyes of many Jews. In other words, to very light-heartedly accept the fate of Jewish oblivion is considered anti-Semitic. Sorry, if that seems harsh.

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Here I was under the mistaken apprehension that Judaism was a religion, not an ethnic group. Hmm.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I think that anyone who wishes to live in a society comprised of their own people, and them only, is promoting a form of racism and intolerance. And I have no desire to support them in any way. I don't wish to see Israel destroyed but I would never give them a red cent to support their apartheid ways.

Sorry to tell you, Foofie and Adv., but you are just like every other person on the planet, no better and no worse. The sooner that Jews accept that their religion is simply one among many and not inherently special in any way, the better for them - and for all of us.

Cycloptichorn

Boy are you wrong about Judaism. Judaism, amongst the three monotheistic western faiths is the only one that says they have no answers to how to get to heaven, and if there is a heaven, any decent person will go there. They don't have to practice Judaism. Now compare that with many denominations of Christianity. I don't know much about Islam, but I thought they believe that one has to be a Moslem to go to their heaven?

Well, I personally like diversity, simply because looking at people that resemble my relatives is boring, but I don't criticize anyone for feeling more comfortable in this life with a homogenous society to live in. If you haven't noticed, not all people of diverse backgrounds would want to be your friend; some people just like those that are more familiar. I don't promulgate my preferences.

Also, if you pay US taxes, you have no say as to where your "red cent" goes. And, I believe that's how it should be. Otherwise, there's anarchy if everyone was able to prescribe where their respective "red cent" went.

In fact, our tax dollars also go to help Americans, and if we could prescribe where our taxes went domestically, there would be many people without certain benefits.

I don't know how old you are, but I question if your wisdom reflects viewing the world from before the 1980's? I suspect there's a generation gap between us. So practice what you preach, if I'm correct, and don't be "intolerant" of those in an older generation. Thank you.

P.S. I recommend a few semesters of Sociology.

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Foofie wrote:

.....I think I wasn't clear. American Jews, for the most part will stay in America. And, they mostly are fully aware that eventually their respective family, through assimilation, won't be Jewish. It might take 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years or more, but that's the known eventuality for secular American Jews. However, they want to think Jews as a group will survive (in the world), so most want Israel to survive as a Jewish Zionist country.

All the assimilating "German, Irish, Polish, Italian and many other extractions" you mention above have a Germany, Ireland, Poland, Italy, etc. to feel that their respective ethnic group will not go to oblivion. That's the difference. Tell me where I'm confusing you?

My essential point was that the mass movements of people now ongoing in the world are changing the nature of Germany, Ireland, Poland, and Italy as well. No ethnic, cultural or religious group is immune from these changes. The price Israel will have to pay to resist this tide will grow with passing time.

Foofie wrote:

And the "pressures of the modern world" you mention above is just today's version of anti-Semitism in the eyes of many Jews. In other words, to very light-heartedly accept the fate of Jewish oblivion is considered anti-Semitic. Sorry, if that seems harsh.

Not harsh at all - merely sad & unrealistic. Clinging too long to such illusions benefits no one. Moreover I do have a hard time accepting that an "assimilated, secular Jew", who is content with his lot in American and himself resistent to migrating to Israel, should accuse me or anyone who believes as I do of "anti Semitism". Such a belief can only be based on close-minded prejudice and illogic, and it certainly does not benefit or speak well of those who may hold it.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Foofie wrote:
.....I think I wasn't clear. American Jews, for the most part will stay in America. And, they mostly are fully aware that eventually their respective family, through assimilation, won't be Jewish. It might take 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years or more, but that's the known eventuality for secular American Jews. However, they want to think Jews as a group will survive (in the world), so most want Israel to survive as a Jewish Zionist country.

All the assimilating "German, Irish, Polish, Italian and many other extractions" you mention above have a Germany, Ireland, Poland, Italy, etc. to feel that their respective ethnic group will not go to oblivion. That's the difference. Tell me where I'm confusing you?

My essential point was that the mass movements of people now ongoing in the world are changing the nature of Germany, Ireland, Poland, and Italy as well. No ethnic, cultural or religious group is immune from these changes. The price Israel will have to pay to resist this tide will grow with passing time.

Foofie wrote:
And the "pressures of the modern world" you mention above is just today's version of anti-Semitism in the eyes of many Jews. In other words, to very light-heartedly accept the fate of Jewish oblivion is considered anti-Semitic. Sorry, if that seems harsh.
Not harsh at all - merely sad & unrealistic. Clinging too long to such illusions benefits no one. Moreover I do have a hard time accepting that an "assimilated, secular Jew", who is content with his lot in American and himself resistent to migrating to Israel, should accuse me or anyone who believes as I do of "anti Semitism". Such a belief can only be based on close-minded prejudice and illogic, and it certainly does not benefit or speak well of those who may hold it.

Your point is specious, to compare Israel, the size of New Jersey, with Germany, Italy, Ireland, etc.

I have a better idea. Let's convert 100 million Europeans to Judaism. Then Jews may not be paranoid about oblivion of their identity.

I didn't call you an anti-Semite, only the light-hearted, non-emotional way of your acceptance of Jewish oblivion is an anti-Semitic statement. You are a product of your culture. The culture has been inherently anti-Semitic for a long time. I don't believe most decent people realize how deeply their biases run. It's part of our socialization process, unfortunately.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Here I was under the mistaken apprehension that Judaism was a religion, not an ethnic group. Hmm.

Cycloptichorn

Well, you have the correct answer; ask the Socratic questions:

When a Jew is asked what his/her ethnic group is, he/she is likely to say Jewish. If one asks an Italian-American, they are likely to say Italian. Same with Irish-Americans, German-Americans, etc.

So, Judaism is the fast forwarding of the Hebrews and their invisible God that lived above the clouds on a mountain. Most Jews, even though they don't look like the followers of Moses, and might have very non-Semitic features (height, hair, eye color, complexion, etc.) would like to believe that some portion of the DNA harkens back to those schlepping behind Moses.

In fact, there is DNA analysis that a fair percentage of European Jews have their Y chromosome similar to current Middle Eastern populations, but the X chromosome is similar to female Europeans (aka Shiksas). The explanation is that early migration to Europe, from the Middle East, resulted in marriages to local women. So, yes, European Jews may be hybrids, but they like to wax nostalgic over their Hebrew ancestors, regardless to what degree that was. And, over the centuries, the more Semitic looking Jews were likely killed off, so today you see some Jews that one is not quite sure if they are Jewish. That's my opinion.

In fact. many Jewish cemeteries are called Hebrew cemeteries. Perhaps, to end people's confusion, Jews should be referred to as Hebrews, and the religion they practice is Judaism.

But regardless, based on a thousand years of anti-Semitism in Europe, I believe Jews will maintain their identity some way, if for no better reason than to spite anti-Semites.

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Foofie wrote:

I didn't call you an anti-Semite, only the light-hearted, non-emotional way of your acceptance of Jewish oblivion is an anti-Semitic statement. You are a product of your culture. The culture has been inherently anti-Semitic for a long time. I don't believe most decent people realize how deeply their biases run. It's part of our socialization process, unfortunately.

Oh, now I understand. I am not an anti Semite, at least consciously, but I am stained with a cultural guilt of which I may be only dimly conscious. It is sort of like the blood guilt of Jews for the death of Christ. They didn't do it and, though they likely wouldn't even wish it, they share in a cultural guilt.

I am surprised that you would even try to peddle this nonsense.

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Foofie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think that anyone who wishes to live in a society comprised of their own people, and them only, is promoting a form of racism and intolerance. And I have no desire to support them in any way. I don't wish to see Israel destroyed but I would never give them a red cent to support their apartheid ways.

Sorry to tell you, Foofie and Adv., but you are just like every other person on the planet, no better and no worse. The sooner that Jews accept that their religion is simply one among many and not inherently special in any way, the better for them - and for all of us.

Cycloptichorn

Boy are you wrong about Judaism. Judaism, amongst the three monotheistic western faiths is the only one that says they have no answers to how to get to heaven, and if there is a heaven, any decent person will go there. They don't have to practice Judaism. Now compare that with many denominations of Christianity. I don't know much about Islam, but I thought they believe that one has to be a Moslem to go to their heaven?

Well, I personally like diversity, simply because looking at people that resemble my relatives is boring, but I don't criticize anyone for feeling more comfortable in this life with a homogenous society to live in. If you haven't noticed, not all people of diverse backgrounds would want to be your friend; some people just like those that are more familiar. I don't promulgate my preferences.

Also, if you pay US taxes, you have no say as to where your "red cent" goes. And, I believe that's how it should be. Otherwise, there's anarchy if everyone was able to prescribe where their respective "red cent" went.

In fact, our tax dollars also go to help Americans, and if we could prescribe where our taxes went domestically, there would be many people without certain benefits.

I don't know how old you are, but I question if your wisdom reflects viewing the world from before the 1980's? I suspect there's a generation gap between us. So practice what you preach, if I'm correct, and don't be "intolerant" of those in an older generation. Thank you.

P.S. I recommend a few semesters of Sociology.

You still misunderstand. I don't care what irrational religious belief one holds or what the particulars are; you're still the same as everyone else, no different. There's nothing about being Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever, that makes you or anyone else special in any way. All religious beliefs are inherently irrational and are no way to make a basis for political decisions.

The problem with the Zionists is that they wish to have an essentially racist and apartheid society, and they decided to place it in the middle of a group of people who they don't like and who don't like them. It isn't as if a big swath of land nobody cared about was chosen, and then nobody would leave them alone. Far from it, in fact, Israel was located on what is essentially the most contested ground on earth in history and many people were kicked off of their land to make it happen. Many are still being kicked off of their lands in the west bank, at the whim of the Israelis. And you wonder why they are so upset?

I see no reason to tolerate those who base their decisions on irresponsible religious preferences. Especially at the expense of others' lives.

You are incorrect in your second post as well. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnic group. That's the difference between Italian-Americans and the what not; there are many different religions practiced in every other country in the world and practically none of them - none of the civilized western ones, for sure - require you to be of a certain religion in order to enjoy the full rights of citizenship.

I find your inability to tell the difference between the two to be quite common amongst a certain type of American Jews. You are correct that over time what you consider to be 'jewish' will be gone, but you should accept that everything changes. All religions will be gone sooner or later. Failure to accept change is a sign of a weak mind.

I, and I suspect George, are no more biased towards you then anyone else - but that's the problem, isn't it? It encapsulates the entire Zionist mindset. That there is a certain group which is special and they deserve special treatment. And anyone who doesn't agree, has inherent biases and is some sort of covert anti-semite. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Just to be clear I think that all religious folks are equally crazy and I don't give a damn what flavor they happen to support. Making decisions based upon things that supposedly happened thousands of years ago is irrational and doesn't deserve respect.

Cycloptichon

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Unfortunately in his complacent secularism, Cyclo exhibits the same intolerance of which he accuses others. That is - among other things - hypocritical and - in spite of his pretenses - contrary to reason.

I accept both the religious and cultural realities of Jewishness - and recognize that there are several extant varieties of both, yet they are still to a degree united.

However the belief that to preserve whatever one holds as tribally sacred - whether it is theistic or atheistic religion, or a cultural phenominon - one must suppress its alternatives and the human beings who hold to them, as a necessary means of preserving one's own, is in my view politically and morally reprehensible.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Unfortunately in his complacent secularism, Cyclo exhibits the same intolerance of which he accuses others. That is - among other things - hypocritical and - in spite of his pretenses - contrary to reason.

I accept both the religious and cultural realities of Jewishness - and recognize that there are several extant varieties of both, yet they are still to a degree united.

However the belief that to preserve whatever one holds as tribally sacred - whether it is theistic or atheistic religion, or a cultural phenominon - one must suppress its alternatives and the human beings who hold to them, as a necessary means of preserving one's own, is in my view politically and morally reprehensible.

Aw, really?

I don't understand how one can define Judaism as an ethnic group, if people from any ethnic group can convert to Judaism. It doesn't make logical sense.

I suppose you are right in one fashion - us seculars will win in the end, I do believe that. I'm not against anyone believing whatever they like; how could I be? But I won't pretend to respect those, as you've said, who believe that repressing others in order to promote oneself is the way to go, and that's exactly what Zionism is about in our modern world.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

All religious beliefs are inherently irrational and are no way to make a basis for political decisions.

I see no reason to tolerate those who base their decisions on irresponsible religious preferences. Especially at the expense of others' lives.

I find your inability to tell the difference between the two to be quite common amongst a certain type of American Jews. ..... All religions will be gone sooner or later. Failure to accept change is a sign of a weak mind.

Just to be clear I think that all religious folks are equally crazy and I don't give a damn what flavor they happen to support. Making decisions based upon things that supposedly happened thousands of years ago is irrational and doesn't deserve respect.

Cycloptichon

QED

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With the major difference being that my opinions are not intended to deny anyone the right to do anything at any time. Just my opinions. I wish I could say the same thing for the religions of the world, who seem most determined to shape my and others' freedoms based upon their beliefs.

I will never support basing political decisions on religion, never.

Cycloptichorn

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georgeob1 writes

Quote:

However the belief that to preserve whatever one holds as tribally sacred - whether it is theistic or atheistic religion, or a cultural phenominon - one must suppress its alternatives and the human beings who hold to them, as a necessary means of preserving one's own, is in my view politically and morally reprehensible.

I agree and this is precisely what radical militant Islam intends to be our fate (though they don't consider their attitude immoral or reprehensible.) (Other religions including Christianity have also been guilty of this in their distant histories.) But I think you don't intend to accuse modern Israel of this? It appears to me that Muslim citizens of Israel are totally free to practice their religion unhindered by any interference as are Israeli Christians and any other faiths represented. Secularists are not required to practice any religious disciplines at all.

Israel is definitely guilty of intending to preserve one tiny spot on the planet where Jews can be Jews in complete safety with no discrimination including openly practicing their religious faith if they want to. There is room to discuss whether it is morally acceptable for them to retain a majority so that they can ensure a place where Jews are safe. I believe you disagree with the principle while I support it.

But religious oppression I don't think is a characteristic of modern Jews.

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The religious arguments are off the mark here. While it sees as its roots the religious tradition tying the Jewish people to Eretz Israel, or "The Land of Israel," at its core Zionist ideology is explicitly secular regarding the Jewish people as an ethnicity (as late as the latter part of the 20th century Zionism still regarded the Jewish people as a race), and the Zionist project was explicitly conceived as a nationalist movement having its roots in 19th century European Nationalism.

Ironically, for Israel to preserve its one tiny spot on the planet "where Jews can be Jews", and its concomitant pretext of freedom and safety in numbers, it must necessarily repress an entire people to achieve those ends. The Zionists refer to it by the oxymoron "Jewish democracy."

Apparently, many people still support notions of the righteousness of ethnic discrimination and oppression.

Zionism is an unfortunate relic of the chauvinist ethnocentric ideas of European Nationalism.

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Israel...the place where "Jews can be Jews". Laughing

(They seem to be doing a pretty good job of being Jewish in Brooklyn or Stamford Hill in London).

Perhaps we should have other enclaves for specific religions. By that logic Jerusalem is the Holy City where Christians can be Christians.

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Quote:

Killing over a thousand Pal kids in the last 7 years - reasonable?

Killing hundreds of innocent Israeli's in the last 7 years - reasonable?

Neither side is being reasonable, and neither side wants to give in at all, so the unreasonableness will continue indefinitely.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

With the major difference being that my opinions are not intended to deny anyone the right to do anything at any time. Just my opinions. I wish I could say the same thing for the religions of the world, who seem most determined to shape my and others' freedoms based upon their beliefs.

I will never support basing political decisions on religion, never.

Cycloptichorn

Your opinions, and the opinions of others that think like you, have denied others of their rights, even if you dont want to see it.

Those who dont have faith or claim to be secular have denied the people who choose to do so the right to pray in schools, or to hold a team prayer before a football game.

You have denied people the right to post expressions of their faith in any place that you might go, such as schools, govt buildings, courthouses, etc.

So for you to say "my opinions are not intended to deny anyone the right to do anything at any time", is not completely accurate.

Would you allow a judge to post the 10 commandments in his courtroom?
Would you allow a public school to set a room aside for prayer if a student group asked them to?

Somehow I think the answer to both questions is no.

As for political decisions based on religion, are you saying that a person that has a religious faith should not take his beliefs into account when making a political decision?
What about someone whose beliefs wont allow him to take a life.
Should he go against those beliefs and kill someone if its politically expedient to do so, or if its required militarily?
After all, using the military is a political decision?

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Israel...the place where "Jews can be Jews".

(They seem to be doing a pretty good job of being Jewish in Brooklyn or Stamford Hill in London).

Perhaps we should have other enclaves for specific religions. By that logic Jerusalem is the Holy City where Christians can be Christians.

Yup. A very small percentage of the Jewish population of the world live in Israel. But the last large group that went there had to leave South America when discrimination against Jews became serious and that hasn't been all that long ago. At least those Jews were able to emigrate with most of their assets. Jews who had to flee Castro's Cuba in 1960 didn't fare as well and most got out with little more than the shirts on their backs. The Jews have probably suffered more persecution and denial of human rights than any ethnic group in human history.

I just can't fault them for wanting one place in the world where they don't have to worry about that.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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