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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2008 04:31 pm
Apt alliteration is artful aid sir
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2008 08:22 pm
Bring it on. I'm ready for WWIII as long as the PRC is in on it too, I want a piece of 'em.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2008 08:24 pm
hanno wrote:
Bring it on. I'm ready for WWIII as long as the PRC is in on it too, I want a piece of 'em.


The PRC? How did they get into this?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2008 08:25 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
I am an athiest and globalist.
I live in Germany and I know what i type now.
Germany is still notorious for 13 years of barbaric behaviour
for which as a citizen of Germany i stoop my head and kiss the feets of all the decent citizens around the globe( though personally neither my family nor my poorself was responseble)

Karl Marx is a jew like jesus.
Unfortunately both jews are unpopular in Germany and ISRAEL.
Why?
Forget about the plight of Palestheians who are homeless like the pitiable millions with a country to boast but life to live and die peacefully..
Let me appeal to this.
Touch your conscience if you have one


Well, considering Germany needs Middle East oil to keep their factories running, and to keep people driving fast on the Autobahn, I think there's every reason for Germany to be self-serving and give the impression that Jews are not popular in Germany, especially towards that Middle Eastern country that has so many Jews (Israel). Like scape-goating Jews under the Weimar Republic assisted the Nazis to gain power. Duh!

However, I don't think though that Germany is any different than so many countries on the Continent (England is not on the Continent), in that self-serving behavior is just an historical fact. I wouldn't want to blame Germany for being just another self-serving Continental country. Like, just because there's an EU, and there is relative peace amongst European countries, doesn't mean European countries suddenly want to be altruistic. That would be too much like the United States, and we couldn't expect Continental Europe to act like the United States, could we now?
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jan, 2008 08:35 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
hanno wrote:
Bring it on. I'm ready for WWIII as long as the PRC is in on it too, I want a piece of 'em.


The PRC? How did they get into this?


They think they're a global power. We can't conduct a proper war and have them just wait it out and step in, unsoiled, at the last minute and take over like they had control of Taiwan the whole time now can we? That's us out here on that little island off their coast. If Taiwan falls, the manifest destiny of the free market and individual sovereignty goes with it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 10:15 am
This piece predates by two or three days some of the more recent ones posted. The interesting thing is that Israel was apparently delivering and willing to deliver fuel, food, and medicine to Gaza in lieu of allowing free border access, but this was deemed 'insufficient'. Then there was the sanctimonious claim that 'the civilians aren't responsible for the firing of rockets into Israel.'

Egypty wasn't all that accommodating even though the Palestinians weren't sending in suicide bombers into Egypt and weren't firing rockets into Egypt. I wonder how accommodating Egypt would be if they were being bombed and shelled?

And would Israel be more accommodating if Hamas (or Hezbollah or whomever is in charge) would simply apologize for the rocket attacks, assure Israel that everything possible would be done to stop them, and sign a peace treat acknowledging Israel's right to exist and assuring peaceful co-existance with Israel?

Gunfire at Egypt's Gaza crossing

Rafah has been mainly shut since June at Israel's insistence

Egyptian security guards have fired into the air and used water cannon to drive back Palestinian women who tried to surge across the border from Gaza.

Hundreds of Palestinians demanded the Rafah crossing to Egypt be reopened for vital supplies that are scarce because of Israel's blockade of Gaza.

A number of people were injured, mostly in scuffles, but several were seriously hurt, according to reports.

It came as Israel eased a four-day Gaza lockdown by allowing fuel deliveries.

The UN Security Council met in an emergency session on Tuesday to discuss Gaza.

Rocket attacks

As the 15-member body met in New York, Israel said its discussions were one-sided.

Its foreign ministry said in a statement: "We can't tolerate a situation where the Security Council debates only the situation of residents in the Gaza Strip and completely ignores that of Israelis living under the constant threat of Qassam rockets."

Since Hamas seized control of Gaza last June, the Rafah crossing has remained mostly closed at Israel's insistence.

But violence broke out as Palestinians tried to get past Egyptian security forces at the terminal, Gaza's only border post that bypasses Israel.

Gunfire erupted as security forces tried to stop hundreds of demonstrators breaking through to the Egyptian side.

'Fabrication'

One of the protesters, mother-of-five Umm Mohammed, 42, told AFP news agency: "Why doesn't Egypt open the crossing? Because [US President George W Bush] gives them dollars."

The trouble came as Israel said its blockade - imposed last week in response to rocket attacks from Gaza - was being eased only for Tuesday and would be reviewed after that.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice blamed Hamas for the lockdown but said she had urged Israel to avoid a humanitarian crisis.

Israel allowed lorries to deliver industrial diesel for Gaza's sole power plant on Tuesday.

The Israeli foreign ministry said it would allow more fuel to be delivered in the coming days along with food and medicine.

'Futile launchings'

But Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas labelled the move "insufficient" and called for a total end to the blockade.

He said civilians in Gaza were not responsible for the "futile launchings" of rockets into Israel.

The blockade forced the Nusseirat power plant to shut down on Monday, plunging Gaza City into darkness.

Gaza's only power plant is now being refuelled

But Israel accused Hamas of "fabricating" the power shortage, saying it was still directly providing nearly 70% of the coastal territory's power.

The Israeli government said its lockdown had stopped missile attacks - although another rocket struck the Israeli town of Sderot on Tuesday.

But Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The real crisis of our Palestinian people is the continuing siege on the Gaza Strip."

The European Union and international agencies have denounced Israel's border closures as illegal "collective punishment" against Gaza's 1.5m residents.

Israel imposed an economic embargo on Gaza after the Islamist militants of Hamas seized control of the territory from the rival Fatah group in June.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7202797.stm
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 11:10 am
I agree most ME states and countries talk a good game but when it comes time to pony up for Palestinians they don't. Luckily Egypt must have realized they look bad if they continued in the way they started.

However I disagree Israel was providing them enough food and substance; they provided them with just barely enough to survive and thats it.

Israel has no right being in that position to able cut or supply for Palestinians. They should be able to be in a position to survive on their own without being under the yoke of Israel, maybe then they wouldn't fire on Israel.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 11:15 am
Foofie wrote:
Like, just because there's an EU, and there is relative peace amongst European countries, doesn't mean European countries suddenly want to be altruistic. That would be too much like the United States, and we couldn't expect Continental Europe to act like the United States, could we now?


It should be noted more often that the USA is acting altruistic. People just don't realise it properly ...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 11:25 am
Foxfyre wrote:
This piece predates by two or three days some of the more recent ones posted. The interesting thing is that Israel was apparently delivering and willing to deliver fuel, food, and medicine to Gaza in lieu of allowing free border access, but this was deemed 'insufficient'.


To add a bit more of that old news ...

Quote:
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday March 22, 2006
The Guardian


Widespread bread rationing has been introduced in the Gaza Strip because Israel has cut off deliveries of flour and other foodstuffs to the Palestinian territory for most of the past two months.
The military reopened the main cargo crossing into Gaza yesterday under US pressure to allow in humanitarian supplies, but the UN said the terminal was working at only a fraction of capacity. The Israelis say that the closure has been forced by security warnings but the Palestinians accuse them of using the crossing as a political tool after the Hamas election victory, and in breach of pledges to the US.

"The bakeries are rationing bread," said John Ging, director of UN operations in Gaza. "People queue and they're given a coupon and a rationed amount ... The shelves are quite empty. There's no sugar, oil, milk, the basics. The shops are really depleted on those essential items."

The Palestinian deputy economy minister, Nasser Sarraj, said about two-thirds of Gaza bakeries had closed due to lack of flour, and many restaurants have shut. Fuel shortages have also contributed to sharply rising commodity prices.

On Monday, Israel allowed Karni crossing to open for less than an hour to permit deliveries of wheat, Coca-Cola and crisps. Before that it was operating only intermittently for almost two months.

Mr Ging said yesterday's deliveries of wheat were limited because the terminal was working at only 10% of capacity.

"This is the first time that bread has been rationed," he said. "Palestinians are very resilient people and they would always have their reserves. However, as the crossing has been closed for 60% of the time since January 1 this year, this is unprecedented. Last year the crossing was closed for 18% of the time."

Amos Gilad, a senior Israeli defence ministry official responsible for liaising with the Palestinians on Karni, said the closures were entirely a matter of security.

"The shortage of basic foodstuffs was weighed against the terror threat, and the logical decision to open it for a limited amount of time was made with the hope the Palestinians will uphold their commitments," he told Israel radio.

But Palestinian officials and some Israeli analysts believe there is a political motive. Some have described the closures as a collective punishment of Palestinians for electing a Hamas government, and a means to pressure the new administration. Israel has also used the closure of Karni to pressure Palestinians to use the cargo crossing at Kerem Shalom, near the Egyptian border. Palestinian officials resisted because they say it is a part of a ploy by Israel to close Karni completely and isolate the Gaza Strip from the West Bank.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 11:29 am
Israel is an apartheid state with the necessary armament to enforce their bigotry - all with the blessing of the US.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 01:20 pm
Now if Egypt started some public works projects close to the the Gaza Strip, jobs could be given to the Palestinians. What type of public works? Well, it has been awhile since the last pyramid has been built in Egypt. Filming it could also lead to a documentary.

It could even launch a film career for some Palestinians. If not in Hollywood, than perhaps Bollywood? There's certainly enough "extras," what with all the Palestinians protesting this or that on the news.

My tongue-in-cheek thought above is based on the musing that the Palestinians might be best served if they were annexed by Egypt. And, the West Bank Palestinians became part of Jordan.

In other words, as the world has seen, the Palestinians have a divided politic, and they want Israel out of their lives. Perhaps, the Palestinians are better off if they became part of an established Middle Eastern country? In my own opinion, the window of opportunity, for the Palestinians to have their own State, won't remain open forever. Their existential concerns may be solved, but not in the manner they would have chosen, since they just didn't make the grade, so to speak, when the window of opportunity was open. In the way of analogy, like how many years is a student allowed to be a social, social senior?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 04:00 pm
Foofie, That isn't even realistic from the point of view that many Palestinains already live in "camps" on their lands without any support from their "hosts."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 04:10 pm
Foofie wrote:
Now if Egypt started some public works projects close to the the Gaza Strip, jobs could be given to the Palestinians. What type of public works? Well, it has been awhile since the last pyramid has been built in Egypt. Filming it could also lead to a documentary.

It could even launch a film career for some Palestinians. If not in Hollywood, than perhaps Bollywood? There's certainly enough "extras," what with all the Palestinians protesting this or that on the news.

My tongue-in-cheek thought above is based on the musing that the Palestinians might be best served if they were annexed by Egypt. And, the West Bank Palestinians became part of Jordan.

In other words, as the world has seen, the Palestinians have a divided politic, and they want Israel out of their lives. Perhaps, the Palestinians are better off if they became part of an established Middle Eastern country? In my own opinion, the window of opportunity, for the Palestinians to have their own State, won't remain open forever. Their existential concerns may be solved, but not in the manner they would have chosen, since they just didn't make the grade, so to speak, when the window of opportunity was open. In the way of analogy, like how many years is a student allowed to be a social, social senior?


As Revel pointed out, the ME has not stepped up to help the Palestinians. Every time Israel relaxes its security measures, which do impose hardships on the Palestinians in Gaza, Israel is rewarded with new terrorist attacks on its own civilians and new rocket fire.

I still maintain that if the Palestinian government would simply call for a permanent cease fire and acknowledge Israel's right to exist, the conflict between Israel and Palestinians would be over.

Apparently the Palestinians didn't 'elect Hamas to be the governing authority in Gaza however. I'm still looking back to see what the original news reports on this conflict look like when compared to the more recent reports:

Abbas calls for overthrow of Hamas in Gaza Strip, claiming population is being abused
Friday November 16, 2007

The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, called yesterday for the overthrow of the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip in his most confrontational comments since the Islamist group seized power from the Palestinian Authority in June.
Speaking in Algeria, Abbas said: "We have to bring down this bunch, which took over Gaza with armed force and is abusing the sufferings and pains of our people."

Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, seized power in June when its forces went on the offensive against the PA security services, which are dominated by Abbas's Fatah faction. Hamas claimed it attacked only those agencies that had tried to destabilise its government and kill its members.

Abbas stopped short of urging an uprising, but he appeared to be trying to capitalise on growing discontent with Hamas in the coastal territory. It was his first explicit demand that Hamas be ousted since the group seized power. Recent polling shows a sharp decline in support for Hamas in Gaza, with one survey giving it 13%, against 40% for Fatah.

His remarks coincided with intensifying diplomatic efforts to bridge differences with Israel before a US-brokered summit in Annapolis, Maryland, which is now expected to be held on November 26.

The Palestinian leader said his government was working relentlessly to make the conference a "decisive launching pad" for establishing a Palestinian state. But he demanded that Israel halt all settlement construction, release Palestinian prisoners and end its targeted killing of suspected Palestinian militants. The centrepiece of the conference is expected to be a joint declaration pledging negotiations on the final status issues of Jerusalem, borders and refugees. Israeli and Palestinian government officials insist that Hamas cannot be a party to those negotiations. Both want to see it defeated.

Since June, Hamas has tried to rule the strip in spite of Israeli and international sanctions. Abbas ordered civil servants and police officers not to work in Gaza or face losing pay. Israel has closed all but one crossing into Gaza and barred everything but what it regards as essential items.

On Monday an estimated 200,000 Fatah supporters attended a rally to commemorate the death of Yasser Arafat. Members of the Hamas police force fired live rounds at the crowd, killing eight and wounding more than 80.

In the past Abbas, based in the West Bank town of Ramallah, has not gone beyond demanding that Hamas apologise for overrunning Gaza and reverse the takeover.

The ferocity and speed of the Hamas victory in June led to calm in Gaza for the first time in years. However, Hamas has not been able to forge a relationship with Israel or the international community. It has also been tested by factions that refuse to obey the regime. The absence of an export market and the scarcity of raw materials has led to the almost complete collapse of Gazan industry.

In spite of this, Hamas retains total control of Gaza. Its Executive Security Force and Qassam brigades are more than equal to any combined Palestinian forces that could be mobilised against them.

With the help of the Israeli army, Abbas and the PA remain relatively strong in the West Bank but Israeli intelligence agencies say that Hamas plans to seize power there as well. Hamas rounded up more than 400 Fatah activists this week and announced media restrictions and plans to curb public gatherings.

The deposed prime minister Ismail Haniyeh, of Hamas, rejected Abbas's call. "Hamas is hard to break, and it is beyond being wiped out or eliminated," he said in a televised speech.

Hamas says it wants to begin negotiations with Abbas to create a unity government but Abbas and his prime minister, Salam Fayad, have insisted they will not negotiate with Hamas until it relinquishes its hold on Gaza.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2212033,00.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 06:47 pm
Hamas helps Egypt to reclose Gaza border

Quote:
RAFAH, Egypt - Hamas militants joined Egyptian forces for a second day Monday in trying to restore control at three breaches in the Gaza border, building a chain-link fence to seal off one opening and directing traffic at two others.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have flooded into Egypt unchecked over the past six days since Hamas militants blasted holes in the border partition. They have been voraciously buying up food, fuel and other goods made scarce by Israeli and Egyptian closures of Gaza's borders.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 08:09 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

...
I still maintain that if the Palestinian government would simply call for a permanent cease fire and acknowledge Israel's right to exist, the conflict between Israel and Palestinians would be over.
...

Amen!
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 08:42 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Israel is an apartheid state with the necessary armament to enforce their bigotry - all with the blessing of the US.


I thought apartheid means "apartness"? Was Israel, in your opinion, meant to have the Arabs apart from its inception? If yes, then the United Nations participated in that reality.

But, how are these two populations that speak two different languages, and have two different cultures supposed to be melded?

Calling Israel an apartheid state is just name calling, in my opinion, if no solutions are offered that are workable, within the context of the different factions amongst the Palestinians.

What I wonder about is what identity the Palestinians had back during the Ottoman Empire, prior to WWI? Where they trying to gain statehood then, or were they accepting of the Ottoman Empire's hegemony? Did they accept the British after WWI having hegemony? Strange how willing they where to get out of the way of the advancing Arab armies in 1948, possibly accepting what they were told (that in two weeks they'd return to live in the homes of the Jewish Israelis; a la Poland, Germany, etc., etc.).

My own opinion is that too many Arab Palestinians will never accept Israel to exist as a Jewish State. I personally believe it reflects a brand of anti-Semitism that is indelible.

If you have any suggestions, it would be interesting to hear them, rather than just making pejorative comments.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 09:12 pm
I see little objective basis on which to prefer Israeli tribalism to the Palestinian version. The issues here of course involve, not so much the Israeli treatment of its Palestinian citizens, as their treatment of the much larger number of inhabitants of the occupied territories. There are very few historical precedents for such long-term oppression and ill-treatment of a captive people - particularly at the hands of states that claim to adhere to modern Western concepts of freedom and democracy.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 09:27 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I see little objective basis on which to prefer Israeli tribalism to the Palestinian version. The issues here of course involve, not so much the Israeli treatment of its Palestinian citizens, as their treatment of the much larger number of inhabitants of the occupied territories. There are very few historical precedents for such long-term oppression and ill-treatment of a captive people - particularly at the hands of states that claim to adhere to modern Western concepts of freedom and democracy.


I'm only guessing, but perhaps the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories is a vestige of how Jews were treated for a thousand years in the ghettos of Europe. Only a guess.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 09:27 pm
Zioists always fall back on calling those who disagrees with their treatment of the Palestinians as anti-Semites. Grow up! There are many Jews who also do not agree with the way Palestinians and others are treated by the Israelis. I know, they're Jew-haters: They hate themselves.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 09:37 pm
Foofie wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
I see little objective basis on which to prefer Israeli tribalism to the Palestinian version. The issues here of course involve, not so much the Israeli treatment of its Palestinian citizens, as their treatment of the much larger number of inhabitants of the occupied territories. There are very few historical precedents for such long-term oppression and ill-treatment of a captive people - particularly at the hands of states that claim to adhere to modern Western concepts of freedom and democracy.


I'm only guessing, but perhaps the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories is a vestige of how Jews were treated for a thousand years in the ghettos of Europe. Only a guess.


Possibly so. However it wasn't the Palestinians who did that.

In addition not all of the ghettos of Europe were places of oppression. In many cases they were the most prosperous and opulent quarters of the cities involved (consider Budapest) and there was a good deal of self-selection among the residents.
0 Replies
 
 

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