ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Advocate wrote:
BS, the Pals live for the destruction of Israel. They have rejected peace at every turn.

Sorry, but I don't buy into your theory that the Palestinians are born as murderous, ravening savages.

Cycloptichorn

Not born that way, but they are taught hatred of Israel from the time they can understand anything. It is cultural and part of their education.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
It would be a tiny percentage of Israelis who oppose a peace settlement, and you know it. This is not the case with the Pals. For instance, Hamas had popular support, and it is unbending in its goal of destroying Israel.

After years of getting the crap kicked out of them with no movement towards independence, land rights, water rights, or any sort of voting rights at all, people sometimes result to extreme measures.

I don't know that it is a 'tiny' percentage of Israelis. I don't know that at all.

Cycloptichorn

You do not know that it is not a "tiny" percentage of Israelis who are opposed to the co-existence of a Palestinian Arab state. But we, if not you, do know that it is a tiny percentage of Israelis who are opposed to the co-existence of a Palestinian Arab state. We, if not you, do know that it is a large percentage of Palestinian Arabs who are opposed to the existence of Israel, and have been opposed to the existence of Israel from the first moment after Israel declared its independence back in 1948. They have thereafter been attempting to end Israel's existence. Until they finally realize that their failure to tolerate Israel's existence is causing a continuation of both the misery of themselves and of those Palestinian Arabs who are not opposed to Israel's existence, they will not be able to end the misery of either.

How can you tolerate the existence of someone who works to keep your people bonded in slavery, without rights, without recognized borders, without water rights?

The Israelis are not doing this. A large percentage of Palestinian Arabs are doing this to themselves and the rest of the Palestinian Arabs. How can the Palestinian Arabs tolerate those of them who are doing this to them?[/size]

If the Israelis were willing to put more on the table, they would get more. but, they are not.

The Israelis have put more on the table many many times, only to have it all rejected.

I know that the Israelis keep electing governments who do no serious work towards finding peace in the region; they are willing to make no concessions whatsoever other then cosmetic ones. This is a signal that they are not interested in any sort of negotiated peace.

You do not know this. You only know what it is you want to be true.

Cycloptichorn

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The Palestinians are denying themselves land and water rights?

Link to your evidence of this, please!

What is the 'many more' things Israel has put on the table, more then Land, water, voting rights?

Cycloptichorn

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
BS, the Pals live for the destruction of Israel. They have rejected peace at every turn.

Sorry, but I don't buy into your theory that the Palestinians are born as murderous, ravening savages.

Cycloptichorn

Not born that way, but they are taught hatred of Israel from the time they can understand anything. It is cultural and part of their education.

I've just looked up some list - and indeed those Palesrinians prove your claims, okie:

Archbishop Theodosios (Hanna) of Sebastia, current Archbishop of Sebastia for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem,
Riah Abu Assal, current Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem,
Elias Chacour, Archbishop of Galilee, of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church,
Michel Sabah, current Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,
Munib Younan, Lutheran bishop
... ... ...

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I will just cite one point of the several points given in the link, Walter. I am glad that you are choosing to become more acquainted with this problem. Please feel free to do more research as well.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/patext1.html

"The textbooks used in the Palestinian Authority school system, from elementary through high school, are replete with strong expressions of hatred towards Israel, negation of its right to exist and praise for the struggle against it, as well as antisemitic expressions against the Jews."

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I wasn't responding to anything you posted later, okie.

I've just added some more or les prominent Palestinians, who were according to your view "taught hatred of Israel from the time they can understand anything". And that "is cultural and part of their education".

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Yeah, the Jews are the ones I go to for unbiased information about Palestinians.

C'mon, okie

Cycloptichorn

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You don't think its in the textbooks, etc. ?

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okie wrote:

You don't think its in the textbooks, etc. ?

I don't ask generational enemies to describe each other. You invariably are given caricatures which bear no relation to reality.

I guarantee that the Pals will tell you that Jews are taught to hate them, think of them as Muslim usurpers of their land, from infancy. I know they would tell you this, b/c I've been told this by many Palestinians personally. Does that make it true?

You oughta be a little more discriminating in where you get your information from. Do you go to Dem party websites to learn the platforms and opinions of the Republicans? Multiply that times a million.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

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Advocate wrote:

Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

Oh! So now you would have us believe you can read Clinton's mind! Shocked

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

Oh! So now you would have us believe you can read Clinton's mind!

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

While some may want that, others would settle for little things, such as access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders. These have never been offered.

It's the quality of what is offered, not just the quantity...

Cycloptichorn

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ican711nm wrote:

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

That offer was for about 45% of the land of the West Bank that Israel continues to occupy in defiance of international law. Moreover what was offered was all within isolated cantonments, each completely surrounded by Israeli territory and (apart from the Gaza border with Egypt and the Mediterranean) without any connectivity with each other or the outside world. THis is not a state: it is instead a replication of the Bantustands of the now defunct Apartheidt Government of South Africa.

It got the contempt it so richly deserved.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

Oh! So now you would have us believe you can read Clinton's mind!

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

While some may want that, others would settle for little things, such as access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders. These have never been offered.

It's the quality of what is offered, not just the quantity...

Cycloptichorn

All that "access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders" was not only offered, it was provided until the Israelis decided they could not negotiate peace with those sworn to oppose their existence in Palestine, and withdrew it all.

Please review Israel's history since 1948.

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georgeob1 wrote:

ican711nm wrote:

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

That offer was for about 45% of the land of the West Bank that Israel continues to occupy in defiance of international law. Moreover what was offered was all within isolated cantonments, each completely surrounded by Israeli territory and (apart from the Gaza border with Egypt and the Mediterranean) without any connectivity with each other or the outside world. THis is not a state: it is instead a replication of the Bantustands of the now defunct Apartheidt Government of South Africa.

It got the contempt it so richly deserved.

It did not deserve contempt. It deserved a counter offer that included an offer to accept Israel's right to exist.

Palestinian Arab leadership has yet to offer acceptance of Israel's right to exist under any circumstances. Absent that offer, Israel's leadership would be crazy to offer Palestinian leadership anything other than reprisals for murdering Israelis.

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ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

Oh! So now you would have us believe you can read Clinton's mind!

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

While some may want that, others would settle for little things, such as access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders. These have never been offered.

It's the quality of what is offered, not just the quantity...

Cycloptichorn

All that "access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders" was not only offered, it was provided until the Israelis decided they could not negotiate peace with those sworn to oppose their existence in Palestine, and withdrew it all.

Please review Israel's history since 1948.

This is a lie. Never were offers with the terms you provided, and sovereignty over those lands, given by Israel.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, those Pals are some slaves! Hamas has fired 1,200 missiles into Israel since June.

Clinton vehemently accused the Pals of walking away from a great deal. Is he an Israeli?

There was no 'great deal.' Clinton was thinking of himself, not of the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

Oh! So now you would have us believe you can read Clinton's mind!

Multiple times, not just this last time, the Israelis offered the Palestinian Arabs land for peace. Never did the Israelis offer enough land, because the Palestinian Arab leadership wants all the land under Israel's control.

While some may want that, others would settle for little things, such as access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders. These have never been offered.

It's the quality of what is offered, not just the quantity...

Cycloptichorn

All that "access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders" was not only offered, it was provided until the Israelis decided they could not negotiate peace with those sworn to oppose their existence in Palestine, and withdrew it all.

Please review Israel's history since 1948.

This is a lie. Never were offers with the terms you provided, and sovereignty over those lands, given by Israel.

Cycloptichorn

Please take a review course in reading comprehension.

I didn't write what you wrote I wrote.

I wrote: ... "access to water; access to the ocean for shipping; and contiguous and defensible borders" was not only offered, it was provided ...

Please re-read my original post.

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Advocate wrote:

BS, the Pals live for the destruction of Israel. They have rejected peace at every turn.

If someone came in and took over your house and then 'allowed' you to live in parts of it and those parts not the best parts; wouldn't you be pretty fed up as well?

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revel wrote:

Advocate wrote:
BS, the Pals live for the destruction of Israel. They have rejected peace at every turn.

If someone came in and took over your house and then 'allowed' you to live in parts of it and those parts not the best parts; wouldn't you be pretty fed up as well?

At no time was your example analagous to the situations in Palestine throughout the British governance of Palestine after WWI.

Prior to 1947 (1920), Arabs started murdering Jews and Jews eventually retaliated by murdering Arabs. Eventually (1946), the British decided they had had enough of governing Palestine and asked the UN to resolve the disputes between Arabs and Jews. The UN in 1947 passed a resolution dividing Palestine into a sovereign Arab state and a sovereign Jewish state.

Palestine in 1947 did not belong to the Arabs to govern and did not belong to the Jews to govern. Since the end of WWI, Palestine belonged to the British to govern. While individual Arabs or small groups of Arabs, and individual Jews or small groups of Jews owned specific pieces of land in Palestine, no group of Arabs and no group of Jews owned all the land in Palestine.

In 1948, the Jews in Palestine declared that less than half of Palestine vacated by the British belonged to them to govern. The Jews declared that land they called Israel an independent state. The Arabs disagreed and decided that all of Palestine vacated by the British belonged to them to govern. The fighting between Arabs and Jews began almost immediately, when the Jews were attacked by their Arab neighbors. The Jews ended up with more of Palestine to govern than they originally declared was theirs to govern.

In my opinion, the Jews of Israel would be crazy to negotiate with the non-Israeli Arabs, before those Arabs declare what it is they want in exchange for recognizing Israel's right to exist.

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