Perhaps if the government (Hamas) invested money in the people instead of bombs and guns they could create for themselves a government people would listen too.
There is much Israel could do to correct the situation, but the start has to be made by the Palestinian government, they need to show an effort first.
Freeduck, way to carry out a point to it's furthest extremist view.
ican711nm wrote:
If there isn't anything, then one must conclude that the only thing that will satisfy the non-Israeli palestinian arabs is the non-existence of Israel.
If that were truly the case, then the Israelis would be justified morally, ethically and practically in wanting the non-existence of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs.
You are confusing the two cases of your proposition which leads to an illogical conclusion.
One thing is the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization) and wanting its non-existence. Another thing is wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian people.
Wanting the non-existence of the state of Israel is not the same as wanting the non-existence of the Israeli people. You are confusing political organizations with the people under said political organizations.
It would have been logical had you said that if the Palestinian Authority (i.e. the Palestinian political organization) wanted the non-existence of the the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization), then the state of Israel would be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian Authority. It would have also been logical had you said that if the Palestinian people wanted the non-existence of the Israeli people then the Israeli people would be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian people.
As it stands, the existence of the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization) is necessarily predicated upon the discrimination against, and oppression of the Palestinian people. Therefor the Palestinian people are justified morally, ethically and practically in wanting the non-existence of the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization). They would not be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Israeli people.
Israel made a country for themselves the Palestinians could do the same.
It is rational for you to make these logical distinctions; it is not rational for you to presume the non-Israeli palestinian arabs are making these distinctions.
Their actions and declarations make it clear they want both the end to the state of Israel, and the end to jews resident in Palestine.
That is why they started killing jews in Palestine in 1920, nine years before the jews in palestine finally began to defend themselves.
It is irrational for you to criticize the way the jews in Palestine have chosen to defend themselves, when you have never experienced being the target of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, and, as a consequence, yourself fearing for your life and the lives of those you love.
Foxfyre wrote:Honestly George, it is unseemly of you to use such a glaring red herring in an argument. The Israelis are not the Ku Klus Klan trying to achieve any ethnic purity. The are not discriminatory toward the law abiding Arabs who are citizens of Israel other than to allow Arabs to be exempt from military duty if they choose to be exempt. The United States has evolved into a nation that is far more accommodating to all than previous generations were. So has Israel. Unless we think it is our responsibility to atone for the sins of our ancesters, it is unrealistic to expect modern day Israelis to atone for the sins of its ancesters. {/quote}
Please elaborate on the evolution that you suggest has occurred in Israel since its founding in 1948. I'm not aware of it. I don't believe that anyone is seriously concerned about the supposed sins of the ancestors of the Israeli people. The issue is exclusively that of the behavior of the modern day state they have created.
If you were not concerned about the 'prior sins', I don't think you would be mentioning them so often in your arguments. You have cited terrorist activities of the Zionists of the early history of modern day Israel as if that is the policy now and the way Israelis are and you do so in such a way that seems to justify modern day Arab terrorism toward the Israelis. You also cite past racist policies of the United States as the same thing that exists in Israel now. My argument is that these are not the same thing.
Quote:You have mischaracterized the status of Arab citizens of Israel. Better for you to do some research and confront the reality of it. You have also ignored the condition of the far larger number of Arabs who inhabit the occupied territories - their situation is very bad indeed.
I have done the research. I have personally talked to Arab citizens of Israel as well as a group of Israelis who were visiting here two or three years ago and also with members of my church (Christian) who have lived and worked in Israel. I have posted the offical current policy of Israel toward its Arab citizens. Following is not an 'offiical' summary but it is instructive:
Quote:Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of a population of 6.7 million, about 1.3 million ?- 20 percent of the population ?- are non-Jews (approximately 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).1
Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.
Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.2
In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.2a
The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.
Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.
On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.
Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the outbreak of violence in the territories that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests with some violence.
The United States has been independent for almost 230 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, 60 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 57 years.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#a
[quote="Foxfyre"Again you seem to paint the Israelis as racist, backward, etc. etc. etc. and avoid the critical issue which is that the Israel will not be allowed to exist at all if they do not retain a majority of Jews in the nation of Israel which was formed specifically for the purpose of being a refuge for misplaced Jews. They have not restricted immigration or full citizenship to misplaced Jews, however.
I believe you are merely reciting the perpetual excuse of all racist movements. "If we are not allowed to oppress _____ (fill in the blank) then we, and our 'superior' culture will surely be destroyed by them."
There is an important distinction to be made between the existence of a people and their culture and the existence of an oppressive and racist state. The energy, creativity and achievements of the Jewish people in Israel are more than enough to assure their continued existence - and preeminent influence - there. That the Palestinian minority would wish to see the end of the avowedly racist state that has so oppressed them for decades is entirely understandable. The American colonies threw off the rule of the British Empire for smaller greviances than they have.
I believe you are ignoring the dangers that the policies of Israeli governments have created for its own future. Given the growing disaffection of the American people with Israel's actions and policies with respect to her neighbors and the evident complications it adds to other already serious international issues, do you believe our unquestioning support for Israel will long continue? Given the state of Israel's relations with the rest of the world, do you believe they can find other equally protective allies? Given the relative demographics and the unhappy state of her relations with her neighbors, do you believe that Israel can long survive on her own?
ican711nm wrote:It is rational for you to make these logical distinctions; it is not rational for you to presume the non-Israeli palestinian arabs are making these distinctions.
It is not rational for you to presume the Palestinians are not making these distinctions.
Ican comments are in blue.
Of Course, it is rational for me to conclude "the Palestinians are not making these distinctions."
I believe the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, not you, when they declare they want Israel to not exist and any surviving jews sent back to wherever they came from.
Quote:Their actions and declarations make it clear they want both the end to the state of Israel, and the end to jews resident in Palestine.
The actions and declarations of the Palestinian people as a whole make it clear that they want justice in the face of decades of discrimination and oppression at the hands of the Zionist ethnocentrists.
Malarkey!
What they want is to be rid of the jews.
Do you actually believe what you wrote or are you merely parroting your copy of the Soros gang's CD-ROM and/or DVD?
It is the non-Israeli palestinian arabs that have since 1920 discriminated and oppressed jews in Palestine by murdering and maiming them.
Quote:That is why they started killing jews in Palestine in 1920, nine years before the jews in palestine finally began to defend themselves.
The Palestinians rioted against the Zionists because of the latter's incursions and discrimination against the former.
Malarkey!
In the 1920s, the incursions by the jews were nothing more than purchases of palestinian real estate at premium prices from palestinian arabs. After the jews were discriminated against by arabs who mass murdered and maimed them in 1920, 1921, and 1929, to make them leave palestine, the jews naturally became wary of such palestinian arabs and began avoiding them when they could.
Quote:It is irrational for you to criticize the way the jews in Palestine have chosen to defend themselves, when you have never experienced being the target of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, and, as a consequence, yourself fearing for your life and the lives of those you love.
Your apologetic for the Zionists' ethnocentric discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian people is irrational, the love for one's individual life or the lives of personal loved ones notwithstanding. The fear for one's life or the lives of loved ones does not justify originating discrimination and oppression, nor does it justify present and ongoing discrimination and oppression. Yours is an emotionalist appeal for discrimination and oppression.
Apologetic![]()
Of course, "the love for one's individual life or the lives of personal loved ones" certainly does justify discriminating against those arabs who would kill and maim them. If I, heaven forbid, were in this position, I would avoid like they were a plague, anyone threatening to murder or maim me or mine. And yes, I would oppress them by limiting their access to me and mine as best I could.
The first step that must be taken by the non-Israeli palestinian arabs to earn, yes, earn. an ending to their being discriminatied against and oppressed (by limiting their access to the jews in Palestine), is for them to declare their conditions for declaring Israel's right to exist.
Ican comments are in blue
The Real Reason for Muslim Decline
By Husain Haqqani
The Muslim world seems to be in the grip of all kinds of rumours. The willingness of large numbers of Muslims to believe some outrageous assertions reflects pervasive insecurity coupled with widespread ignorance. The contemporary Muslim fascination for conspiracy theories limits the capacity for rational discussion of international affairs. For example, a recent poll indicates that only 3 percent of Pakistanis believe that Al-Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks in the United States, notwithstanding Osama bin Laden and his deputies have taken credit for the attacks on more than one occasion. Ironically, many America haters express admiration for bin Laden on grounds of his willingness to attack American civilians while at the same time refusing to accept that Al-Qaeda's biggest attack was, in fact, the work of Al-Qaeda.
The acceptance of rumours and the readiness to embrace the notion of a conspiracy does not apply exclusively to the realm of politics. Villagers in rural Nigeria are refusing to administer the polio vaccine to their infant children out of fear that the vaccine will make their offspring sterile. Some religious leaders in Pakistan's Pashtun tribal areas bordering Afghanistan have also voiced concerns about a "Western-Zionist conspiracy" to sterilize the next generation of Muslims as part of what they allege is an "ongoing war against Islam."
Mobile phones and internet, the pervasiveness of which is often cited as a measure of a society's progress and modernity, have become a means of spreading fear in the Muslim world. Text messages, originating from the Pakistani city of Sialkot recently warned people of a virus if people answered phone calls from certain numbers. The virus would not hurt the phone, the messages said, but would rather kill the recipient. In mid-April, these messages swamped Pakistani cell phone users, causing many to turn off their phones, according to wire service reports.
The rumor was embellished with supposed first person accounts. One report cited a 45-year old man, who talked to a friend who said he saw it in the newspaper ?- that a man dropped dead just after answering his mobile phone. "When he got the call, he died like he was poisoned," he said. The panic caused by the rumors forced the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority to issue a denial. Phone companies sent out text messages urging people to be calm. A newspaper rejected the rumor but featured the headline, "Killer Mobile Virus."
A text message widely circulated in an Arab country claimed that trucks carrying a million melons had been smuggled across the country's northern border and the melons were contaminated with the HIV virus, which causes AIDS. The text message accused Israel of smuggling the contaminated melons as part of a "biological warfare campaign." The Customs director on the northern border had to rebut the rumour with the explanation that no trucks full of melons had crossed the border in the preceding two days.
No one paid any attention to the fact that the HIV virus cannot be transmitted by eating melons or that Israelis have not been engaged in a biological warfare campaign against any Arab or Muslim country. An American-Muslim friend of mine also pointed out that it would take more than a hundred trucks to haul a million melons. "Why ship melons if you can ship an army?" he asked.
Rumours can sometimes have serious consequences. In 1979, Pakistanis students burned down the U.S. embassy in Islamabad, killing several people, on the basis of a rumour. Islamist extremists had taken over Islam's holiest shrine, the Kaaba in Makkah, and rumour-mongers claimed that the outrage had been committed by the United States. Those spreading the rumour, and those acting on it, showed no remorse over the loss of life caused by their actions.
The Muslim world has a high rate of illiteracy but ignorance reflected by the readiness to believe unverified (and sometimes totally outrageous) claims is not just a function of illiteracy. It is a function of bigotry and fear. Literate Muslims, such as those involved in the text message rumour-mongering, are as vulnerable to ignorant behaviour as illiterate ones. Conspiracy theories have been popular among Muslims since the twilight years of the Ottoman Empire as a way of explaining the powerlessness of a community that was at one time the world's economic, scientific, political and military leader.
The erosion of the leadership position of Muslims coincided with the west's gradual technological ascendancy. Soon after the Ottomans took over Constantinople, Johann Gutenberg printed a Bible using metal plates. Printing was introduced into the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Sultan Bayazid II (1481-1512) only to be virtually banned for use by Muslims in 1485. In Europe, a full grown book industry evolved, facilitating wide dissemination of ideas and knowledge. By 1501, more than a thousand printing presses had produced approximately 35,000 titles with ten million copies. But in the Ottoman Empire, only Christians and Jews used printing technology.
Muslim use of the printing press did not start until 1727, causing the Muslims to lose more than 270 years in the greatest explosion of knowledge. The Persian, Mughal and Ottoman Empires controlled vast lands and resources but many important scientific discoveries and inventions since the fifteenth century came about in Europe and not in the Muslim lands.
Ignorance is an attitude and the world's Muslims have to analyze, debate and face it before they can deal with it. The 57 member countries of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) have around 500 Universities compared with more than five thousand universities in the United States and more than eight thousand in India. In 2004, Shanghai Jiao Tong University compiled an 'Academic Ranking of World Universities', and none of the universities from Muslim-majority states was included in the top 500.
There is only one university for every three million Muslims and the Muslim-majority countries have 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The U.S. has 4,000 scientists per million and Japan has 5,000 per million. The Muslim world spends 0.2 per cent of its GDP on research and development, while the western nations spend around five per cent of GDP on producing knowledge.
The tendency of Muslim masses to accept rumours as fact and the readiness to believe anything that suggests a non-Muslim conspiracy to weaken or undermine the Muslims is the result of the overall feeling of helplessness and decline that permeates the Muslim world. Most Muslim scholars and leaders try to explain Muslim decline through the prism of the injustices of colonialism and the subsequent ebb and flow of global distribution of power. But Muslims are not weak only because they were colonized. They were colonized because they had become weak.
Conspiracy theories paper over the knowledge deficit and the general attitude of ignorance in the Muslim world. It is time for a discussion of the Ummah's decline in the context of failure to produce and consume knowledge and absorb verifiable facts.
Husain Haqqani is Director of Boston University's Center for International Relations, and Co-Chair of the Islam and Democracy Project at Hudson Institute, Washington D.C. He is author of the book 'Pakistan between Mosque and Military'
Christian community always played significant role in national development:Governor
PESHAWAR, Dec 24 (APP): The NWFP Governor, Lt. Gen ® Ali Muhammad Jan Aurakzai has said that the Christian community has always played a significant role in national development, especially in the field of education and health and set high standards of services in this respect in the country.
In his message, on the eve of Christmas Day, the Governor also pointed out that both Islam and Christianity teach human dignity, tolerance, love, brotherhood and respect for each other's faith which, he added, infact is the essence of all religions.
Therefore, he remarked, we pray that bonds of friendship between communities may continue to flourish for the good of all mankind.
The complete text of the Governor's message is given below.
"On the eve of the auspicious occasion of Holy Christmas, I would like to extend my heartfelt felicitations to members of the Christian community in the province and
FATA. Indeed, this day brings with it a message of peace, harmony and goodwill amongst people of different creeds and regions.
This day also marks the renewal of our pledge to work hand in hand for peace and tranquility of the world in general and our country in particular.
The Christian community has always played a significant role in national development, especially in the field of education and health. Christian missionaries have no doubt helped in setting a high standard of education in the country and played an equally commendable role in the health care sector.
Quaid-i-Azam, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of the nation, had assured equal rights and opportunities to the minorities in Pakistan. This policy was pursued by all the successive governments, including the present regime.
I would also take this opportunity in impressing upon our Christian brethren not to forget the poor and downtrodden members of their community on Christmas and share with them moments of joy and happiness. May God, the Almighty shower His blessings on all of us. Ameen."
