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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:31 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Perhaps if the government (Hamas) invested money in the people instead of bombs and guns they could create for themselves a government people would listen too.


Well, I suppose, you update your information about the Palestenian Administration - e.g. the Israelian newspaper Haaretz has a list ...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:32 pm
Ofcoarse the IDF doesn't spend any money on their military.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 12:46 pm
McGentrix wrote:
There is much Israel could do to correct the situation, but the start has to be made by the Palestinian government, they need to show an effort first.


Yes, we cannot demand that the ones with the power make any moves until the ones without have fixed the problem for them.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 05:12 pm
Oh, look, the 3 stooges posted replies.

Walter, is Hamas no longer part of the Palestinian government? According to your article they are, so why the snide response?

ci, nevermind, not worth the response.

Freeduck, way to carry out a point to it's furthest extremist view.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 05:39 pm
McG doesn't know how to respond correctly to any of our statements except to call us the "three stooges." Bright.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 06:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Freeduck, way to carry out a point to it's furthest extremist view.


It was you're extremist point.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 07:38 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
ican711nm wrote:

If there isn't anything, then one must conclude that the only thing that will satisfy the non-Israeli palestinian arabs is the non-existence of Israel.

If that were truly the case, then the Israelis would be justified morally, ethically and practically in wanting the non-existence of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs.


You are confusing the two cases of your proposition which leads to an illogical conclusion.

One thing is the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization) and wanting its non-existence. Another thing is wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian people.

Wanting the non-existence of the state of Israel is not the same as wanting the non-existence of the Israeli people. You are confusing political organizations with the people under said political organizations.

It would have been logical had you said that if the Palestinian Authority (i.e. the Palestinian political organization) wanted the non-existence of the the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization), then the state of Israel would be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian Authority. It would have also been logical had you said that if the Palestinian people wanted the non-existence of the Israeli people then the Israeli people would be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Palestinian people.

As it stands, the existence of the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization) is necessarily predicated upon the discrimination against, and oppression of the Palestinian people. Therefor the Palestinian people are justified morally, ethically and practically in wanting the non-existence of the state of Israel (i.e. the Zionist political organization). They would not be justified in wanting the non-existence of the Israeli people.

It is rational for you to make these logical distinctions; it is not rational for you to presume the non-Israeli palestinian arabs are making these distinctions. Their actions and declarations make it clear they want both the end to the state of Israel, and the end to jews resident in Palestine. That is why they started killing jews in Palestine in 1920, nine years before the jews in palestine finally began to defend themselves.

It is irrational for you to criticize the way the jews in Palestine have chosen to defend themselves, when you have never experienced being the target of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, and, as a consequence, yourself fearing for your life and the lives of those you love.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 07:49 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Israel made a country for themselves the Palestinians could do the same.


From the time after the first world war that the British began to implement its promise to the Zionists to establish a national homeland for Jews in Palestine through their mandate, Palestinian endeavors to build national democratic institutions as the preliminary steps to statehood were thwarted by the British as the latter gave precedence to the Zionists' nationalist endeavors in Palestine. The British had hardly considered Palestinian nationalist aspirations at all, merely referring to them in its Balfour Declaration as "existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine," and in its Palestine Mandate simply as "other sections of the population." The thrust of Britain's involvement in Palestine was from the start detrimentally prejudiced against the very peoples indigenous to Palestine in favor of a people from Central and Eastern Europe.

Palestinian efforts to establish a parliament along democratic electorial lines were rebuffed by the British colonial secretary Lord Passfield who in a May 1930 meeting with Palestinian delegates responded thusly:

Of course, this Parliament as you call it that you ask for, would have to have as its duty the carrying out of the Mandate . . . the Mandatory power, that is the British government, could not create any council except within which the terms of the Mandate and for the purpose of carrying out the Mandate. This is the limit of our power . . . Would you mind considering our difficulty that we cannot create a Parliament which would not be responsible and feel itself responsible for carrying out the Mandate?

In effect Passfield was asking the Palestinian majority to put aside its own nationalist aspirations for the nationalist aspirations of the tiny minority of Zionist immigrants in Palestine.

In terms of external support for Palestinian efforts to build pre-state institutions, the colonialist powers largely thwarted the efforts of the Arab populations under their control from supporting and contributing to the Palestinians. Rashid Khalidi in his book, "The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood," describes how France through its Foreign Ministry in Paris and its colonial officials in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia prevented the sending of funds from these countries' peoples to the people of Palestine. France also prevented the travel of emissaries from the Maghribi community in Palestine to North Africa to request aid for the Palestinians such as after the 1929 Wailing Wall disturbances. In contrast France enabled the flow of large sums of capital to the yishuv from the Jewish communities of those selfsame North African countries whose non-Jewish populations it had blocked from sending aid to the Palestinians, and it facilitated the traveling of Palestinian Zionists to these North African countries under its control.

By the time the British dropped the problem it had created in Palestine onto the lap of the UN, and the latter's infamous recommendation to partition the country along ethnic lines, the Palestinians had no real or firm state structures through which to operate as a polity. After the 1948 war the territory that the UN recommended for allotment to the Palestinians was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. After the 1967 war Israel arrogated and occupied the territories that Jordan and Egypt had controlled (the West Bank and Gaza Strip respectively). Today the Palestinians have a weak, quasi-national jurisdiction, the Palestinian National Authority, which operated under the utter stricture of the state of Israel.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 08:07 pm
ican711nm wrote:
It is rational for you to make these logical distinctions; it is not rational for you to presume the non-Israeli palestinian arabs are making these distinctions.


It is not rational for you to presume the Palestinians are not making these distinctions.

Quote:
Their actions and declarations make it clear they want both the end to the state of Israel, and the end to jews resident in Palestine.


The actions and declarations of the Palestinian people as a whole make it clear that they want justice in the face of decades of discrimination and oppression at the hands of the Zionist ethnocentrists.

Quote:
That is why they started killing jews in Palestine in 1920, nine years before the jews in palestine finally began to defend themselves.


The Palestinians rioted against the Zionists because of the latter's incursions and discrimination against the former.

Quote:
It is irrational for you to criticize the way the jews in Palestine have chosen to defend themselves, when you have never experienced being the target of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, and, as a consequence, yourself fearing for your life and the lives of those you love.


Your apologetic for the Zionists' ethnocentric discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian people is irrational, the love for one's individual life or the lives of personal loved ones notwithstanding. The fear for one's life or the lives of loved ones does not justify originating discrimination and oppression, nor does it justify present and ongoing discrimination and oppression. Yours is an emotionalist appeal for discrimination and oppression.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 12:24 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Honestly George, it is unseemly of you to use such a glaring red herring in an argument. The Israelis are not the Ku Klus Klan trying to achieve any ethnic purity. The are not discriminatory toward the law abiding Arabs who are citizens of Israel other than to allow Arabs to be exempt from military duty if they choose to be exempt. The United States has evolved into a nation that is far more accommodating to all than previous generations were. So has Israel. Unless we think it is our responsibility to atone for the sins of our ancesters, it is unrealistic to expect modern day Israelis to atone for the sins of its ancesters. {/quote}

Please elaborate on the evolution that you suggest has occurred in Israel since its founding in 1948. I'm not aware of it. I don't believe that anyone is seriously concerned about the supposed sins of the ancestors of the Israeli people. The issue is exclusively that of the behavior of the modern day state they have created.


If you were not concerned about the 'prior sins', I don't think you would be mentioning them so often in your arguments. You have cited terrorist activities of the Zionists of the early history of modern day Israel as if that is the policy now and the way Israelis are and you do so in such a way that seems to justify modern day Arab terrorism toward the Israelis. You also cite past racist policies of the United States as the same thing that exists in Israel now. My argument is that these are not the same thing.


Quote:
You have mischaracterized the status of Arab citizens of Israel. Better for you to do some research and confront the reality of it. You have also ignored the condition of the far larger number of Arabs who inhabit the occupied territories - their situation is very bad indeed.


I have done the research. I have personally talked to Arab citizens of Israel as well as a group of Israelis who were visiting here two or three years ago and also with members of my church (Christian) who have lived and worked in Israel. I have posted the offical current policy of Israel toward its Arab citizens. Following is not an 'offiical' summary but it is instructive:

Quote:



Quote:
[quote="Foxfyre"Again you seem to paint the Israelis as racist, backward, etc. etc. etc. and avoid the critical issue which is that the Israel will not be allowed to exist at all if they do not retain a majority of Jews in the nation of Israel which was formed specifically for the purpose of being a refuge for misplaced Jews. They have not restricted immigration or full citizenship to misplaced Jews, however.
Quote:
I believe you are merely reciting the perpetual excuse of all racist movements. "If we are not allowed to oppress _____ (fill in the blank) then we, and our 'superior' culture will surely be destroyed by them."


No, I am reciting what appears to be a perpetual argument that Israel is surrounded by more larger land masses that are full of people sworm to the specific goal of exterminating Israel. Now if you can cite any period in American history that Americans have faced anything comparable to that, your argument might be valid. Until you can, it is a huge red herring.

Quote:
There is an important distinction to be made between the existence of a people and their culture and the existence of an oppressive and racist state. The energy, creativity and achievements of the Jewish people in Israel are more than enough to assure their continued existence - and preeminent influence - there. That the Palestinian minority would wish to see the end of the avowedly racist state that has so oppressed them for decades is entirely understandable. The American colonies threw off the rule of the British Empire for smaller greviances than they have.


I am quite sure that most of the Palestinian people would certainly be willing to live peacefully with the Israelis. That the truly evil people who govern the Palestinian people are not willing is the problem. So long as the Palestinian people give their allegiance to people determined to exterminate Israel and who refuse to even acknowledge that Israel has any right to exist, I think Palestinians are not entitled to unrestricted rights or membership in Israeli society. Here in the United States we take pretty much the same view toward people determined to overthrow the US government and/or chosen way of life.

Quote:
I believe you are ignoring the dangers that the policies of Israeli governments have created for its own future. Given the growing disaffection of the American people with Israel's actions and policies with respect to her neighbors and the evident complications it adds to other already serious international issues, do you believe our unquestioning support for Israel will long continue? Given the state of Israel's relations with the rest of the world, do you believe they can find other equally protective allies? Given the relative demographics and the unhappy state of her relations with her neighbors, do you believe that Israel can long survive on her own?


This is an argument you keep repeating and it is probably valid. The part of it you continually refuse to include in the mix is that many of Israel's neighbors are pledged to destroy Israel the first opportunity they get. It would be very nice to assume that if Israel lays down its arms and becomes a model Arab nation tomorrow that the Arabs will then think they are just fine and dandy and will leave them alone. I think Israel would be very foolish to share your rosy view there however and it is a certainty that even if the Israelis were not exterminated, they would no longer enjoy any autonomy or religious or economic freedom nor would they be a refuge for displaced Jews.

One way to find out is for the USA to withdraw its support for Israel and see what happens. If your theory is right that the Arabs are simply reacting against Israel's opprssive policies, they should be okay. If I am right that it is the Arabs who are acting on racist policies, the carnage will be unimaginable.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 10:42 am
Foxfire,

I will attempt to address your points in the order you made them.
1. The "early history" and"prior sins" of Israel happened only sixty years ago. Moreover the policies of targeted assasinations of Palestinian leaders and (in the West Bank) the systematic isolation of Palestinian communities within a web of fortified and connected Israeli settlements - both designed to steadily extend Israeli territory and diminish that of the Palestinians - continue, just as during the 1940s. The deliberate renewal of this policy by the Likud government after the 1967 War and its continuation under all governments since then, makes all of this a present reality. The "past sins" continue, almost ininterrupted, to the present day.

2. I fully agree that, for its citizens, Jewish and otherwise, Israel is a relatively successful and open society. The economic and political situations of its non-Jewish citizens are in several respects superior to what exists in the less developed countries surrounding Israel. The social and political status of women is better for all. However you indulge in a few euphamisms when it comes to describing the restrictions placed on non Jews in Israel. Arabs are NOT PERMITTED (as opposed to not "required") to serve in the armed forces. The domination of the construction and trucking industries by Arabs is symptomatic of their lower economic status as the hod carriers in the Jewish state. The government owns and controls most of the residential real estate in the country, and its policies systematically favor Jews. (Despite what you imply in reciting the exceptional Israeli Supreme court ruling).

The decisive element though is the statutory definition of Israel as a Jewish state. This permeates everything in their society and precludes any evolution towards true equality. This is fundamentally different from the United States in which, despite our history of hypocrisy and discrimination, we were propelled to overcome these things by the central idea of equality on which our self-image is based.

3. The same Islamist fanatics who are pleged to destroy Israel are also equally committed to the destruction of the United States. I'll concede that geographic proximity makes the threat more immediate for Israel. However, as we learned on 9/11, the threat to us is real as well. Recent events have also reminded us that the solution to this problem must arise from within the Islamic world - we cannot impose it on them short of destroying them all. Israel's unequal policies are a direct threat to the counterforces within the Islamic society that might find an accomodation with the modern world.

4. No one has suggested that Israel lay down its arms and submit to Islamist rule. Instead they could start by giving political rights to all the people in the occupied territories, or, alternatively, leaving them entirely. The rest is an evolutionary process, that must be accompanied by an eventual redefinition of the character of the Israeli state.

5. The notion of a Jewish refuge in Israel is now a bit outdated. The waves of truly persecuted Jews fleeing the aftermath of WWII and the Holocaust in Europe are long past. The subsequent wave of emigrees from the then failing Soviet Union were really fleeing the economic and political decline of the Soviet Empire. Israel needed them to counter the population imbalance in the then newly occupied territories and found it convenient to style them as refugees from Soviet persecution. Beyond that the emigrees from other Arab countries were motivated mostly by local reaction to the actions of Israel itself. There is no significant movement of Jews from the Americas, Europe or anywhere else to Israel today.

6. Sentimental views of a new Zion in Israel, based on fundamentalist interpretations of the Old Testament are every bit as much a threat to political peace and justice as are Islamist concepts of a restoration of the Caliphate and restoration of Sharia law in dar al Islam.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:08 am
The best I've read since a long time (if not at all) on this topic!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:13 am
georgeob wrote: However you indulge in a few euphamisms when it comes to describing the restrictions placed on non Jews in Israel. Arabs are NOT PERMITTED (as opposed to not "required") to serve in the armed forces.

This is not technically true, although generally true. The Druze in northeast Israel, Arabs originally from Syria (and/or Lebanon) serve in the IDF and local police force, but they are the only ones that I am aware of.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:23 am
By law, all Israeli citizens are subject to conscription.
The Defence Minister can grant exemption to individual citizens or classes of citizens. Since the founding of Israel, all Israeli minorities are exemted .... besides the Druze Arabs and the Circassians (as well as Bedouins are encoured to volunteer).

Source: isayeret.com - Israeli Special Forces Database (membership/subscription) - info available as well on wikipedia
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:31 am
InfraBlue wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
It is rational for you to make these logical distinctions; it is not rational for you to presume the non-Israeli palestinian arabs are making these distinctions.


It is not rational for you to presume the Palestinians are not making these distinctions.

Ican comments are in blue.

Of Course, it is rational for me to conclude "the Palestinians are not making these distinctions."

I believe the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, not you, when they declare they want Israel to not exist and any surviving jews sent back to wherever they came from.


Quote:
Their actions and declarations make it clear they want both the end to the state of Israel, and the end to jews resident in Palestine.


The actions and declarations of the Palestinian people as a whole make it clear that they want justice in the face of decades of discrimination and oppression at the hands of the Zionist ethnocentrists.

Malarkey!

What they want is to be rid of the jews.

Do you actually believe what you wrote or are you merely parroting your copy of the Soros gang's CD-ROM and/or DVD?

It is the non-Israeli palestinian arabs that have since 1920 discriminated and oppressed jews in Palestine by murdering and maiming them.


Quote:
That is why they started killing jews in Palestine in 1920, nine years before the jews in palestine finally began to defend themselves.


The Palestinians rioted against the Zionists because of the latter's incursions and discrimination against the former.

Malarkey!

In the 1920s, the incursions by the jews were nothing more than purchases of palestinian real estate at premium prices from palestinian arabs. After the jews were discriminated against by arabs who mass murdered and maimed them in 1920, 1921, and 1929, to make them leave palestine, the jews naturally became wary of such palestinian arabs and began avoiding them when they could.


Quote:
It is irrational for you to criticize the way the jews in Palestine have chosen to defend themselves, when you have never experienced being the target of the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, and, as a consequence, yourself fearing for your life and the lives of those you love.


Your apologetic for the Zionists' ethnocentric discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian people is irrational, the love for one's individual life or the lives of personal loved ones notwithstanding. The fear for one's life or the lives of loved ones does not justify originating discrimination and oppression, nor does it justify present and ongoing discrimination and oppression. Yours is an emotionalist appeal for discrimination and oppression.

Apologetic Question

Of course, "the love for one's individual life or the lives of personal loved ones" certainly does justify discriminating against those arabs who would kill and maim them. If I, heaven forbid, were in this position, I would avoid like they were a plague, anyone threatening to murder or maim me or mine. And yes, I would oppress them by limiting their access to me and mine as best I could.

The first step that must be taken by the non-Israeli palestinian arabs to earn, yes, earn. an ending to their being discriminatied against and oppressed (by limiting their access to the jews in Palestine), is for them to declare their conditions for declaring Israel's right to exist.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:56 am
Quote:
Ican comments are in blue
n.b. ignore the blue bits
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 12:52 pm
Quote:
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 01:43 pm
You better not be a Christian, Sikh, or other minority in Pakistan. If you are, you will be told to convert to Islamism or be murdered.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/convert-or-die-pakistani-christians-seek/20070517065609990002?ncid=NWS00010000000001
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 01:57 pm
Bad eyes today, Advocate? Or can't you just understand what you post (here: the report you quoted)?
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 02:33 pm
Quote:
Christian community always played significant role in national development:Governor

PESHAWAR, Dec 24 (APP): The NWFP Governor, Lt. Gen ® Ali Muhammad Jan Aurakzai has said that the Christian community has always played a significant role in national development, especially in the field of education and health and set high standards of services in this respect in the country.
In his message, on the eve of Christmas Day, the Governor also pointed out that both Islam and Christianity teach human dignity, tolerance, love, brotherhood and respect for each other's faith which, he added, infact is the essence of all religions.
Therefore, he remarked, we pray that bonds of friendship between communities may continue to flourish for the good of all mankind.
The complete text of the Governor's message is given below.
"On the eve of the auspicious occasion of Holy Christmas, I would like to extend my heartfelt felicitations to members of the Christian community in the province and
FATA. Indeed, this day brings with it a message of peace, harmony and goodwill amongst people of different creeds and regions.
This day also marks the renewal of our pledge to work hand in hand for peace and tranquility of the world in general and our country in particular.
The Christian community has always played a significant role in national development, especially in the field of education and health. Christian missionaries have no doubt helped in setting a high standard of education in the country and played an equally commendable role in the health care sector.
Quaid-i-Azam, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of the nation, had assured equal rights and opportunities to the minorities in Pakistan. This policy was pursued by all the successive governments, including the present regime.
I would also take this opportunity in impressing upon our Christian brethren not to forget the poor and downtrodden members of their community on Christmas and share with them moments of joy and happiness. May God, the Almighty shower His blessings on all of us. Ameen."



source :
A CHRISTMAS MESSAGE
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