ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Advocate wrote:

The Pals have attacked Jews since before the formal establishment of Israel, and has targeted civilians. There are violations of international accords. In view of this, Israel has every right to do what it has done.

So did the Irgun and the Stern gang. Therefore, by your 'logic', this confers the same rights on Palestinian organizations.

Advocate wrote:

Since there is no political entity that is Palestine, there is no occupation by Israel.

You are creating "facts" again. There is indeed a "political entity" called Palestine. It was troubled part of the British Empire after WWI, became a League of Nations Mandate, and was later divided into Jewish and Arab sections by the UN after WWII. As a minimum Israel has defied and violated the original UN boundary, and as well her subsequent borders as established after the 1948 war.

Your underlying attitude, however is consistent with your views on the subject. There is no Palestine and there are no Palestinians. Therefore Israel's expansion into their homes and territory is merly an incidental matter of Israel's economic development and natural expansion.

The unhappy fact, however, is that there are Palestinians and they have suffered horribly at the hands of an expansionist and intolerant Israel. There is a Palestine too, and its political fate, along with that of Israel will remain a contentious issue for many decades to come.

Your attitudes on these matters are remarkably like those of the Holocaust deniers who occasionally pop up into public view. Such loonies are an ever present but small part of humanity. However, the supporters of an expansionist Israel have made a regular system of thought and doctrine out of such absurd fantasies and lies.

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Quote:

Your attitudes on these matters are remarkably like those of the Holocaust deniers who occasionally pop up into public view. Such loonies are an ever present but small part of humanity. However, the supporters of an expansionist Israel have made a regular system of thought and doctrine out of such absurd fantasies and lies.

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read his post...

Cycloptichorn

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Me too!

What I'm really surprised about Advocate is his ability to rationalize correctly on most other topics, but when it comes to Israel, he seems to have a blind spot. Mystery.

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Advocate wrote:

The Pals have attacked Jews since before the formal establishment of Israel, and has targeted civilians. There are violations of international accords. In view of this, Israel has every right to do what it has done.

No, it hasn't. That's akin to saying that, because the criminals are violating the law, the police has every right to do so, too.

Has it never occurred to you that, in a democracy, the police usually seems to be quite able to prosecute criminals without breaking the laws? And likewise, shouldn't it somehow be possible for Israel to protect its citizens without having to violate international treaties it has signed?

Advocate wrote:

Since there is no political entity that is Palestine, there is no occupation by Israel.

Even if there is no political entity or no country called Palestine, there is still a territory that has been occupied by Israel. The Fourth Geneva Convention nowhere defines an occupied territory exclusively as an annexed territory that was formerly part of another sovereign nation. It refers to all territories under occupation by a foreign power.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Me too!

What I'm really surprised about Advocate is his ability to rationalize correctly on most other topics, but when it comes to Israel, he seems to have a blind spot. Mystery.

I don't agree. I believe he is rather consistently wrong on everything - and remarkably self-contradictory in the standards he applies to Israel and everything else.

We had an acronym for this in the Navy --- WEFT.

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georgeob, That's because you and I disagree on most other topics, but I agree with Advocate on many. We must agree to disagree about our opinioin about Advocate.

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I am amazed to see all this blind hatred of Israel. The UN formed the state, and Israel lived contentedly within the pre-1967 borders, despite hundreds of unprovoked attacks by the Pals. It was only after being invaded by the Pals and the various Arab countries that Israel moved into the Pal territory. However, Jews, as well as Christians, et al., may not live in peace in Arab areas. It is so terrible how Israel defends itself.

George, the Irgun and Stern nationalistic groups targeted the Brits, not the Pals.

I might mention that Israel is this garden amid the cancer prevalent in the ME. Further, Israel has been a wonderful ally of the USA, which can't be said of any other ME country.

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Advocate, You have it the other way around; the US has been the ally of Israel - and your amazement about "blind hatred of Israel" is not even any of our position. Your blindness is based on your misinterpretation of what has been said; nothing more, nothing less. It's your failure to see the one-sided view of Jews against the Palestinians, and ignoring the take-over of Palestinian lands without any legal recourse for them that is missing in your "observation." International laws are clear on this issue; no lands can be taken over as the result of war. Otherwise, Germany and Japan will now be part of the US.

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Meanwhile, the ambassadors from the ÚSA and the European Union's states have turned down invitations to attend Wednesday's Jerusalem Day celebrations, due to the disputed status of East Jerusalem.

This lead to some severe dipomatic disturbances, since Yoel Hason from the the governning Kadimah party heavily attacked the German ambassador in a letter.

EU States, US Ambassador to Boycott Jerusalem Day Celebrations

US ambassador shirks Jerusalem Day celebrations

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Advocate wrote:

I am amazed to see all this blind hatred of Israel.

And I'm amazed at what you would interpret as "blind hatred of Israel".

Ican has claimed that there is no international law prohibiting the transfer of civilian population into an occupied territory, and it has been pointed out that there is indeed, as far as "international law" goes, a provision in the Fourth Geneva Convention that makes exactly this illegal.

Ican has claimed that Israel has not signed the Fourth Geneva Convention, and it has been pointed out that Israel has indeed signed and ratified it.

You have claimed that there are no "occupied territories" in spite of the fact that Israel still occupies the Golan Heights, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

This is what you make into "blind hatred of Israel"? Get a grip.

Advocate wrote:

The UN formed the state, and Israel lived contentedly within the pre-1967 borders, despite hundreds of unprovoked attacks by the Pals.

You seem to find it convenient to cite UN mandates and conventions when it suits your purpose, but are in complete denial when Israel violates those conventions. Not that I'm surprised.

Advocate wrote:

It was only after being invaded by the Pals and the various Arab countries that Israel moved into the Pal territory.

And, by occupying this territory, Israel became the Occupying Power, and the Palestinian territories become occupied territory.

Advocate wrote:

However, Jews, as well as Christians, et al., may not live in peace in Arab areas. It is so terrible how Israel defends itself.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Israel is transferring massive numbers of Israeli "settlers" into the occupied territories, in violation of international treaties it has signed. This has absolutely nothing to do with self defence.

Advocate wrote:

I might mention that Israel is this garden amid the cancer prevalent in the ME.

You know, georgeob1 is right: your terminology is surprisingly similar to that of the Neo-Nazis and holocaust deniers.

Advocate wrote:

Further, Israel has been a wonderful ally of the USA, which can't be said of any other ME country.

<shrugs>

Somoza has been a wonderful ally of the USA, too. So was Saddam. And Israel is still violating the Fourth GC with its aggressive settlement policy in the occupied territories.

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Walter, Thanks for posting those two links; they are important events not only for Israel, but for the international community to reject what Israel thinks is okay to operate outside of international laws, and to justify it by a celebration.

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Here is a simple, yes or no question for all of you attacking and blaming Israel for the trouble in the ME...

If Israel gives in to ALL of the palestinian demands,if they retreat to the 1967 borders,if they release every terrorist they have in their prisons,if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

And if they were,would you still blame them,or blame the Palestinians for attacking them?

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mysteryman wrote:

Here is a simple, yes or no question for all of you attacking and blaming Israel for the trouble in the ME...

If Israel gives in to ALL of the palestinian demands,if they retreat to the 1967 borders,if they release every terrorist they have in their prisons,if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

Of course not. Who can guarantee the actions of violent extremists exept the violent extremists themselves? Israel itself can't guarantee the actions of its violent extremists like Eden Nathan Zaada, Yigal Amir and others.

What should be guaranteed is that the violent extremists are brought to justice.

Quote:

And if they were,would you still blame them,or blame the Palestinians for attacking them?

I wouldn't blame Israel or the Palestinians. I'd blame the violent extremists.

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Quote:

if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

There are no guarantees in life. The best you can hope for is relative calm.

Cycloptichorn

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InfraBlue wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Here is a simple, yes or no question for all of you attacking and blaming Israel for the trouble in the ME...

If Israel gives in to ALL of the palestinian demands,if they retreat to the 1967 borders,if they release every terrorist they have in their prisons,if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

Of course not. Who can guarantee the actions of violent extremists exept the violent extremists themselves? Israel itself can't guarantee the actions of its violent extremists like Eden Nathan Zaada, Yigal Amir and others.

What should be guaranteed is that the violent extremists are brought to justice.

Quote:
And if they were,would you still blame them,or blame the Palestinians for attacking them?

I wouldn't blame Israel or the Palestinians. I'd blame the violent extremists.

And since the extremists claim to be Palestinians?
Hamas and Hezbollah both claim to be Palestinian groups,and one of them is the majority govt in the Palestinian "govt".

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Regarding the countries that won't send reps to Israel, remember that the Arabs have all the oil. It is as simple as that.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

There are no guarantees in life. The best you can hope for is relative calm.

Cycloptichorn

So,knowing that,why should Israel give in to the demands of others?
It would seem to me that if they were to give in,without an ironclad guarantee of safety,then they would be signing their own death warrant.

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Advocate wrote:

Regarding the countries that won't send reps to Israel, remember that the Arabs have all the oil. It is as simple as that.

You didn't read the post nor the links, I suppose: that is about anbassadors IN Israel and the festivities in Jerusalem.

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mysteryman wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
if they totally stand down their military,can you give an iron clad guarantee that they will not be attacked again?

There are no guarantees in life. The best you can hope for is relative calm.

Cycloptichorn

So,knowing that,why should Israel give in to the demands of others?
It would seem to me that if they were to give in,without an ironclad guarantee of safety,then they would be signing their own death warrant.

So that means that you cannot guarantee that Israel will break down the settlements in the the occupied territories and remove the hundreds of thousands of settlers from those territories, even if all the other parties would guarantee an end to the hostilities and guarantee Israel's right of existence?

So, if you can't guarantee that to the Palestinians, then what's their motivation to stop the resistance?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Regarding the countries that won't send reps to Israel, remember that the Arabs have all the oil. It is as simple as that.

You didn't read the post nor the links, I suppose: that is about anbassadors IN Israel and the festivities in Jerusalem.

Picky, picky! You must be a little bookkeeper. It is still all about oil.

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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

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