ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

AGAIN!

The Israelis claim they will be open to negotiating with the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, when these arabs declare that Israel has a right to exist.

These arabs should test that Israeli claim by declaring they will agree to declare Israel's right to exist when Israel declares itself willing to agree that Israel shall become part of a new state of Palestine open to the equal participation of all Palestinian residents, arabs and jews alike.

If the Israelis agree to negotiate the nature of the new state on that basis, then peace is attainable. However, if the Israelis refuse to negotiate on that basis, then Israel will clearly become solely responsible for the continuation of the deadly status quo in Palestine.

On the other hand, if the non-Israeli palestinian arabs refuse to make such an offer, then they will clearly become solely responsible for the continuation of the deadly status quo in Palestine.

They are not facts!

Absent supporting evidence, these allegations of yours are at best your opinion and at worst your fabrications.

Advocate gave you a specific rebuttal. He said: "All you can do is give us more wild anti-Israel accusations."

The burden of providing evidence that your allegations are true sits squarely on your head. Advocate does not have the burden to prove your accusations are false until you have provided evidence that your accusations are true.

You are perfectly free to accept that bit of Israeli propaganda as the complete description of the issue if you wish. However the facts are that public support in the U.S. for that position is fading fast; the Middle East policy of the Administration most favorable to Israel in decades is now thoroughly discredited; Israel is a pariah in most of the world; and the demographic forces in the region are very strongly against them. Perhaps it is time for something different.

WHILE ALL YOU WROTE HERE MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT WHAT YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY ALLEGED ARE FACTS ARE TRULY FACTS:

Those facts about Israeli settlements in the West Bank have been so widely reported and repeatedly confirmed that they don't require any backup. This is not a debating game - if you wish to research the matter do so yourself.

Do you have support for the above? I have my doubts that is true.

Israel is an independent state and can have the rules of return as they wish. Knowing the history of the Jews, one can understand why they need a state of their own (although they are happy to live with the Israeli Pals). The state cannot allow a flood of Pals to immigrate because this would surely lead to the demise of the state. For similar reasons, and for security purposes, the state cannot become part of a greater Palestine.

In other words, you cannot provide evidence to support your allegation.

AGAIN!

The Israelis claim they will be open to negotiating with the non-Israeli palestinian arabs, when these arabs declare that Israel has a right to exist.

These arabs should test that Israeli claim by declaring they will agree to declare Israel's right to exist when Israel declares itself willing to agree that Israel shall become part of a new state of Palestine open to the equal participation of all Palestinian residents, arabs and jews alike.

If the Israelis agree to negotiate the nature of the new state on that basis, then peace is attainable. However, if the Israelis refuse to negotiate on that basis, then Israel will clearly become solely responsible for the continuation of the deadly status quo in Palestine.

On the other hand, if the non-Israeli palestinian arabs refuse to make such an offer, then they will clearly become solely responsible for the continuation of the deadly status quo in Palestine.

Perhaps you should forward these recommendations to the Palestinians and the Israelis. Only they can make peace. Beyond that your mental construct is of no real significance.

Perhaps you two can see a bright and secure future for Israel on her present course. I cannot. The demographics of the region are strongly against her; apart from the United States, Israel has no allies; public opinion in the United States towards Israel is changing fast. I have no interest in arguing these points with you - we shall all have to await what unfolds.

georgeob's analysis of the situation in Israel is spot on! Only people with skewered perspectives of the Jew's right to live in an aparthied state of Israel against other Arabs in the middle of the Arab states have learned nothing. Their goal was lost before they even began their struggle to create Israel. Everybody else sees the inconsistencies in Israel's "democracy" except other like-minded Jews. Their struggle has just begun, and the odds are, they have no chance of success. Simple math tells us so. They've continued to lose friends since 1968, and will continue to lose more in the future.

One question...

Should the US abandon Israel and allow it to be destroyed by its enemies?

From reading the foregoing, I gather that everyone else in this thread favors the demise of Israel. Am I wrong?

Hezbollah and Hamas are back to rocketing Israel.



CBNNews World
Top Stories

Hezbollah, Hamas 'Ready for New Attacks'
CBNNews.com
May 5, 2007


CBNNews.com - Hamas and Hezbollah are among various groups threatening new violence against Israel.

In an interview this weekend with Al-Jazeera Television, Hezbollah's Sheikh Naim Kassem said his organization completed prepping its men and infrastructure. He said, "We have completed...our ground work in preparing our men, as well as our land, so that we would be ready if the Israeli (government) thought one day of 'launching another attack.'"

The Hamas leader accuses Israel of planning a military operation against the Palestinians. As a result, he's urging all Palestinians to "prepare themselves for battle." He rejected an American proposal that would help remove roadblocks hindering Palestinian movement and improve Israeli security.

Meanwhile, the chief Palestinian negotiator says the PLO Executive Committee is welcoming the U.S. plan. He says its timeline is the only way to translate words into action.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is to brief Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas on the plan tomorrow.

But this morning, dozens of Hezbollah rockets slammed into northern Israel. One salvo killed three Israeli women in a direct hit on a house in an Arab village on the Israel-Lebanon border.

And in the Gaza Strip, Islamic Jihad purportedly fired three rockets toward Israel, damaging a Sderot house.

The latest threats indicate a weakening truce between Israel and its enemies, as various groups say the truce will only work if Israel stops operations in the Gaza Strip.

As is frequently the case here, you are wrong.

Clearly Ican believes Israel should continue, as I also suspect do Mysteryman and several others. For myself, I do not "favor the demise of Israel". Instead, I fear that such a fall will inevitably occur unless Israel makes some fundamental changes in its policies with repect to its self-identity and its policies with respect to its minorities, the residents of the territories it occupies, and its neighbors.

The fate of the sectarian government of Nothern Ireland is a relevant example. A 300 year struggle ended with the fall of the overwhelmingly dominant government, even despite the protection and sponsorship of an external power (Britain). The fall was precipitated by the increasing isolation and moral indefensability of the intolerance systematically practiced by the ruling government and the inexorable pressures of the relatively growing population of the Irish Catholic minority (now majority). The IRA terror campaign brought the political issues to light; goaded the ruling government into even worse actions to maintain its rule; and exhausted the willingness of Britain to continue its support of an increasingly intransigent and intolerant ruling elite in Northern Ireland. There are stunning analogies here that I believe merit some serious reflection on the part of Israel.

I believe and hope that the Jews of Israel can continue to live and prosper in the land of Israel. I do not believe that such an outcome is possible as long as Israel insists that this can only be achieved by driving out and oppressing the native Palestinian population. Such an attitude will inexorably corrupt the otherwise admirable values and political principles of the state (as has already occurred), and gradually isolate it from the support of the modern world (as also has already occurred). In the face of the relative demographic pressures, this cannot long continue. The historical precedents in support of this thesis are numerous.

Alternatively, Israel could gradually begin to transform itself into a more pluralistic state with explicit recognition of the equal rights and rightful places of the Moslem, Druze, Christian and secular elements of its population. While this may be a risky process, it is likely less dangerous than the present course. The United States has been faced with similar choices along its historical trajectory from the original sectarian and intolerant colonies, to union, the eventual assimilation of hordes of immigrants from around the world, the long-delayed recognition of the equal rights of African Americans and others. It has worked for us, and it is hard to imagine that we could have survived by doing otherwise.

The difference is,we werent and arent surrounded by countries and people that have sworn themselves to our complete destruction.
Remember,most of the countries around Israel and a majority of the peoples around Israel have called for and sworn the destruction of Israel.

That is,IMHO,the biggest difference.

As a gentle rebuttal to George:

What has happened to Christians living in Israel and neighboring areas?
The Christian tradition in the Middle East goes back to the first century, but the most important date is 636, the Muslim Arab Conquest. Before that date the Middle East was inhabited by mostly Christians and Jews, subjects of the Christian Byzantine Empire. Afterward, Muslim Arabs dominated the region. Exceeding even the Roman's zeal for conquest, the Arabs wanted to muslimize everyone by force and over thirteen centuries of continuous oppression, they have largely succeeded, leaving only a few struggling groups.

At the beginning of the 20th century, rising nationalist feelings in the region led the Copts of Egypt, the Assyro-Chaldeans of Iraq, the South Sudanese, and the Lebanese Christians, to try to obtain independence. But the Islamic powers in the region denied these Christians their right to self-determination. At the expense of the Middle East Christians, Arab identity and Islamic domination were firmly established. Only the Jews of Israel were able to establish a non-Islamic nation in the region. Israel has suffered perpetual war and terrorism for that accomplishment.

Islam remains intolerant of any other group of people. Others are not accepted on an equal basis, only as dhimmis to be subjugated by Islam. Muslim children are taught to chant:

We shall fight on Saturday and then on Sunday
In other words, first the Jews and then the Christians.

Thus, the outlook appears bleak for Christianity in the Middle East, in the very home of the religion, where Christ walked the earth and the central events of Christianity occurred. Emigration began in the aftermath of World War I when Muslim Arabs gained political control, continued through the middle of the twentieth century, and then accelerated in the 1990s with the rise of radical Islam. Indigenous Middle Eastern Christians are fleeing in droves, escaping Muslim violence and persecution, and deteriorating economic conditions. The only exception is Israel, where the Christian population is slowly increasing.

Situation in Lebanon
The Christians of Lebanon -- Maronites, Orthodox, and other communities including Protestants -- number about 1.5 million, the remnant of a Christian nation that resisted the Islamic conquorers for 13 centuries. Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled. During the Israeli operations in Lebanon in 1978 and in 1982, the Christian Lebanese sided with the Israelis against the Syria-backed Islamic Lebanese. In 1985, the Israelis withdrew except for a security buffer zone exposing the Christians to reprisals. Since 1990, the end of the Lebanese civil war, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation.

Christians in the north and central parts have been systematically politically and socially oppressed since the Lebanese civil war ended. Hundreds have been arrested, tortured, and jailed by pro-Syrian forces. In the south of Lebanon, thousands of Christians are bombarded constantly by Hezbollah. Thousands of Lebanese Christians fled when Israel pulled out of the security zone in 2000. There are more than seven million Lebanese Christians outside of Lebanon, including more than 1.5 million Americans of Lebanese descent.

Situation in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority
After World War II, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, was 80% Christian and Nazareth 60%. Now those percentages are 20% and 30% respectively, and are shrinking. Jerusalem Christians were a plurality in the 1920s; today, they number under 2 percent of the city's population.

Serious violations of religious freedom are reported from within the Palestinian Authority, especially the persecution of Muslims who have converted to Christianity. In the Christian town of Bet Jella, a human rights lawyer reported brutal interrogation methods and arbitrary arrests based on fabricated criminal charges against Muslims who have converted to Christianity and their families. His report includes testimony about torture from victims who were terrified to criticize the Palestinian Authority and their secret police.

In Nazareth, the Christian population has decreased dramatically due to the rise and spread of militant Islam. The Islamic Movement (a radical Muslim group) has demanded the construction of a mosque near the Church of the Annunciation, a mosque even some moderate Muslims oppose. On Easter, 1999, the Muslim group burned Christian stores and targeted Christians over the issue; attempts to intervene were frustrated because Christians are terrified to speak out.

Hundreds of Christian families have left Palestinian towns like Bet Jella and Bethlehem during the al-Aqsa intifada, caught literally in the crossfire between Palestinians and Israelis. On the West Bank, a nearly-permanent Muslim boycott of Christian businesses is achieving its objective: driving the Christians to emigrate.

In October 2000, Christians were attacked in Gaza after a Palestinian Muslim leader called for a "jihad" against both Jews and Christians.

In February 2002 a Muslim mob, including Palestinian Authority Special Forces, burned Christian businesses and attempted to destroy the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches in Ramallah. The attack occurred after a Christian man killed a Muslim while being pursued by a Muslim gang because he refused to pay protection money for safe passage to his home.

Situation in Jordan
In Jordan, a relatively moderate nation, 94% of the population practices Sunni Islam. The percentage of Christians in Jordan (including the West Bank) in 1952 was 18% but has fallen to under 4%, with the majority being Greek Orthodox. Two percent of the population follows other religions, including Shi'a Islam.

Christian emigration continues because anti-Christian persecution is still widespread. Christian schools have been harassed by the government and converts have been arrested and jailed. Christian businesses have been attacked.

Situation in Egypt
The largest Christian community of the Middle East is found in Egypt, which has ten to twelve million Copts, a Christian group comprising about 15 - 20% of the country's population. The Coptic Church is an independent church that broke away from the Byzantine Orthodox in the 6th century. Copts were the majority religion in Egypt until at least the 9th century, when it was overtaken by Islam brought by Arab conquerors.

Egypt is torn by strife generated by Islamic opposition to Egypt's official secularism and its ties with the West. Islamic radicals attacked government officials, Copts, tourists and security officers in an insurgency that has killed 1,200 people since the early 1990s.

Egypt is a major recipient of US foreign aid, despite blatant violations of religious freedom which occurs regularly. The Copts require presidential permission to open a church, their history can no longer be taught in schools, and converts to their faith can be arrested under the National Security Act. Few Copts are found in the Egyptian government.

The London Daily Telegraph reported:

... in a single month during 1998, Egyptian police detained about 1,200 Christians in Al-Kosheh, near Luxor in Upper Egypt. Seized in groups of up to 50 at a time, many were nailed to crosses or manacled to doors with their legs tied together. Then they were beaten and tortured with electric shocks to their genitals while police denounced them as "infidels."
Other Muslim/Arab areas

In Sudan, at the crossroads of Islam and Christianity in Africa and one of the only nations on earth where slavery is still common, the Islamic fundamentalist government has been waging war on its millions of Christian citizens. As a result of the vicious civil war going on since 1955 between the Muslim Arab North and the Christian Black South, it is estimated that some two million people have died thus far. Those that are not killed outright are forced to convert to Islam and then sold into slavery.

Although the population of modern Turkey is more than 99% muslim, less than one hundred years ago, under the predecessor Ottoman Empire, it was about 30% Christian. The situation changed when some two million Armenian Christians were massacred between 1905 and 1918, a genocide which the Turkish government still denies. Of the remaining Christians, many fled immediately, while others facing death threats, systemic harassment, and discrimination, emigrated later. The Greco-Turkish war of 1922 resulted in most of the 200,000 Greek Christians leaving the country, with only a small remnant remaining, who continue to complain of government harassment and discrimination.

In Saudi Arabia, Christians are less than 1% of the 21-million population, and the public practice of Christianity is virtually unknown since by law there are no Christians in Saudi Arabia.

Situation in Israel
Jews are over 80% of the population of Israel; most of the remaining number are Sunni Palestinian Arabs. Christians make up 2% to 3% of the population. Of the Christian population in Israel, over 80% are Arabs. Many of the non-Arab Christians came to Israel with their Jewish spouses during the waves of immigration in the 1980s and '90s, mainly from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia.

The percentage of Christians in the Israeli population has steadily declined due to the immigration of Jews from all over the world. However, the absolute number of Christians has increased as Christians have entered Israel from Europe or areas in the Middle East. The Christian population of Israel has grown from 34,000 in 1949 to about 140,000 today.

Israeli law provides for freedom of religion and religious communities have legal authority in matters such as marriage and divorce. Some Christians live in Israel because that is where Jesus lived and the central events of Christianity took place. Some maintain the Christian holy sites and keep them open and accessible to all. They are welcomed by Israel and there is no friction with Jewish residents. However, some Christians have come to Israel as aggressive missionaries and that is not welcome, giving rise to restrictive laws. (At least the Israelis don't line up Christian missionaries and shoot or behead them as has been the case in some Muslim countries.) Despite pro-Arab claims, however, there is no evidence of Jewish persecution of Christians in Israel.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_christians.php

Then what do you propose?

First, Northern Ireland is not a country. Thus, there is no similarity to the conflict involving Israel.

George and Ican propose things that would clearly lead to the demise of Israel. No Israeli could accept such a proposal. I am not sure what, if anything, MM would propose for that area.