Many people wondered why Hamas, et al., were attacking Israel while it was pulling out of Gaza. The attacks were to make the Pal people thing that the terrorist organizations drove Israel out.
Palestinians attack vital Israel-Gaza crossing point, killing six
Friday, January 14, 2005
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) Israel is calling for Palestinian action in stopping attacks like one in Gaza yesterday that killed six Israelis.
A massive military reaction that often follows such attacks did not come immediately.
Palestinian militants set off a large bomb at a security wall, then three gunmen charged though the hole and opened fire. The gunmen were shot and killed. Then Palestinians fired a mortar shell as the wounded were being evacuated.
The new Palestinian president has been trying to persuade militant groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad to agree to a cease-fire, but so far with no success. Palestinian officials say efforts will continue at a meeting in Cairo later this month.
Israel intends to pull out of Gaza in the summer. Militant groups are stepping up attacks to show they are forcing the Israelis out.
Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All right reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
Summer is not too far off.
NewsTrack - Top News
Published: April 11, 2007 at 12:10 PM E-mail Story | Print Preview | License
Report: Hezbollah preparing for summer war
BEIRUT, April 11 (UPI) -- A senior Hezbollah official in Beirut said Wednesday the group's military wing was replenishing its weaponry and preparing for a summer war with Israel.
In an interview with Britain's Guardian newspaper, Deputy Secretary General Sheik Naim Kassem said the move was in anticipation the United States would encourage Israel into military action to stop weapons smuggling into Lebanon.
He also alleged U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney "has given orders for a covert war against Hezbollah," and claimed the Lebanese government was involved.
"This happens with the knowledge of the prime minister and is facilitated by the security forces under his command," he said.
Kassem also blamed failed talks between Hezbollah and the Lebanese government on Washington.
"We think that if it wasn't for America's interference, we would have resolved the issue of participating in the government a long time ago," he told the Guardian.
Hezbollah and Israeli troops fought a 34-day war last summer after two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped in a border raid.
I believe the unhappy fact is that this fight could continue indefinately. There is no Palestinian power able to make and enforce a peace, and, given their situation, no shortage of new Palestinian recruits. As long as Israel believes it can extend its territory at tolerable cost through the struggle, -- and, because of the US security gurantee, do so without any risk of serious failure, -- they have no incentive to end it either.
georgeob1 wrote:I believe the unhappy fact is that this fight could continue indefinately. There is no Palestinian power able to make and enforce a peace, and, given their situation, no shortage of new Palestinian recruits. As long as Israel believes it can extend its territory at tolerable cost through the struggle, -- and, because of the US security gurantee, do so without any risk of serious failure, -- they have no incentive to end it either.
There you go again with your partial truths.
Previously, one of your most egregious cases of stating partial truths was stating that the Israelis perpetrated a surprise attack on the Egyptians et al at the start of the 1967 war, which of course was true. But you chose not to mention the reason for the Israeli surprise attacks. You chose not to mention what motivated the Israelis to mount those surprise attacks. The motivation was of course the rapid massive buildup of Egyptian et al forces on Israeli borders prior to those surprise attacks. Obviously, those Israeli surprise attacks were designed to prevent the success of then threatening Egyptian et al attacks on Israel.
Similarly, also true, is your statement "there is no Palestinian [Arab] power able to make and enforce a peace, and, given their situation, no shortage of new Palestinian [Arab] recruits." But you neglect to mention the true reason why there is no Palestinian [Arab] power able to make and enforce a peace. The reason of course is that the Palestinian Arab leadership and followers refuse to direct their effort to building an Arab state within their current Palestinian territory. They persist only in directing their effort to trying to exterminate Israel.
Israel extended its territory in winning the 1967 war. Israel is not trying to extend its territory beyond that. What Israel is doing is abandoning the idea that giving land currently held by Israel to the Palestinian Arabs will eventually be accepted by the Palestinian Arabs in exchange for granting and enforcing Israel's right to exist. Israel tried making that trade several times and failed each time to get the Palestinian Arabs to truly agree.
However, it is correct to say that as long as Israel believes it can maintain its current territory at tolerable cost, because of the US security gurantee, it can do so without serious risk of
short term failure. But that being true, still leaves the Israelis with adequate incentive to find a way to end this standoff with the Palestinian Arabs so that they can succeed in obtaining
long term success in existing as a nation state.
What should the Israelis do to achieve their objective? They do not know and neither do you, George, or I. I believe the answer will be found in a conservative US government
bribing the Palestinian Arabs to build their own nation state. But even that approach will require at least two successive Palestinian Arab generations being taught by the US to accept responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.
ican711nm wrote:... Israel is not trying to extend its territory beyond that. What Israel is doing is abandoning the idea that giving land currently held by Israel to the Palestinian Arabs will eventually be accepted by the Palestinian Arabs in exchange for granting and enforcing Israel's right to exist. Israel tried making that trade several times and failed each time to get the Palestinian Arabs to truly agree.
Oh, I see it now. Israel is not trying to extend its territory. Instead, it is no longer willing to give it back to its residents. - a somewhat tortured bit of sophistry.
The previous Israeli offers were much ballyhoed by the media, but in fact they weren't much. What was falsely labelled as 90% of the West Bank (under Barak)was in fact about 40% (it was 90% of what Israel considered "negotiable"). Moreover the territory they offered was broken up into 30+ isolated cantonments, each completely surrounded by Israeli territory, and each completely isolated from the others and the outside world. Hardly the basis for a viable state. Indeed it starkly resembled the ill-famed "Bantustands" of the former Apartheidt government of South Africa.
I correctly stated that Israel started the hostilities in 1967 with simultaneous attacks on Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Israel had a valid causus belli with Egypt over the Straits of Theran closure, but none with Syria or Jordan. Exactly what is the distinction you are trying to make here? The truth is that many Americans imagine that Israel was the victim of a surprise attack in that war - based on that the point is worth making.
ican711nm wrote:... What should the Israelis do to achieve their objective? They do not know and neither do you, George, or I. I believe the answer will be found in a conservative US government bribing the Palestinian Arabs to build their own nation state. But even that approach will require at least two successive Palestinian Arab generations being taught by the US to accept responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.
Peace between Israel and her neighbors can be achieved only by them. Just as in the centuries-long conflict in Northern Ireland, peace will come only when both sides abandon their sectarian dreams and opt for peace and justice instead.
No "bribe" by this country or anyone else can be a substitute for that. I certainly do not wish to see the United States of America acting as the agent for such an expensive and ultimately foolish undertaking. The notion that we could or should play such a role will merely prolong the conflict.
It is false to say that, in the '67 war, Israel started the hostilities with Jordan, the Pals, and Syria. The opposite is true. In fact, Israel, unsuccessfully, called upon them to abstain from attacking. Jordan's answer, for instance, was to begin shelling W. Jerusalem.
When Israel attacked the Egyptian forces, the latter's military was in the Sinai heading toward Israel. The hulks of the Egyptian tanks, etc., are still in that desert.
When the settlers pulled out of Gaza, Israel was rewarded: the Pals tunneled into Israel, kidnapped soldiers, and rained missiles on Israel. So much for trading land for peace.
You seem particularly exorcized over this point. The histories of the conflict make much out of the tactical and strategic surprise achieved by Israel in the opening of that conflict.
The last time I checked Sinai was part of Egypt.
In many ways the 1956 surprise attack by the IDF on Egypt and Suez (in conjunction with British & French forces) was the model for the 1967 campaign.
I agree with you. Land for peace - in the absence of justice - isn't likely to work. All of the ingredients are in place in the Middle East for a war that could last for centuries. This is not in Israel's interest. Time now for some fundamental rethinking of strategy and policy. Same goes for the U.S. We have unwittingly created a dangerously self-centered client state which is more and more willing to subject us to any risk for its narrow and ill-conceived aims, and which appears to have no long-term intent to create peace and justice on its borders - wherever they happen to be.
I would certainly oppose Ican's suggestion that the U.S. create some substantial bribe for the Palestinians as an inducement to peace. In the absence of justice that won't work any better than land for peace. More importantly though. I would have a serious issue with any action by this country to bribe oppressed people into continued servitude.
I believe there is enough wisdom and virtue in Israel for them to find an alternative to their present course - one that promises only conflict without end. However as long as they have our blank chect, there is no incentive for them to do so.
Without that 'blank check', do you think Israel would survive at all, George? Who would step up to the plate to defend them?
George, I never said that the Sinai was other than Egyptian. I guess you feel that Israel should have waited for Egypt to have crossed the border into Israel.
You clearly feel that Israel should allow the return of the 600,000 Pals who abandoned Israel. This is despite that those 600,000 are now, magically, 5 million.
Foxfyre wrote:Without that 'blank check', do you think Israel would survive at all, George? Who would step up to the plate to defend them?
That is certainly their perennial excuse. However, as I have repeatedly made clear, Israel has repeatedly chosen Jewish sectarianism and territorial expansion over justice and peace with their neighbors. History doesn't reveal its alternatives, and we will never know what an alternative course might have yielded from a wiser Israeli policy. It is clear though that their present situation could hardly be worse. It would be a very hard case for you to argue that Israel has extablished a foundation of peace with its neighbors.
Indeed they have created the conditions for war without end, generation after generation.
Advocate wrote:George, I never said that the Sinai was other than Egyptian. I guess you feel that Israel should have waited for Egypt to have crossed the border into Israel.
You clearly feel that Israel should allow the return of the 600,000 Pals who abandoned Israel. This is despite that those 600,000 are now, magically, 5 million.
I merely stated the fact that Israel initiated the hostilities in 1967 because so many posters here seem to be unaware of that fact. I also believe that taking posession of the West Bank was one of their war aims, and a factor that shaped their strategy. Subsequent events have proved it to be a great failure.
In 1949 the 600,000 were still 600,000 and living in those ghastly camps just north of Jerico.
Foxfyre wrote:[But bottom, line are you saying here that they'll be no worse off if the U.S. pulls its financial and military support and they do not survive?
Part 2 of the same question: Would you advocate that the US pull its military and financial support from Israel?
.
Depends on what you mean by 'survive'. I don't think Israel has much chance to survive in its present form - a tribal sectarian state. In alternate models Israel has the chance to be a beneficial catalyst for the development of the Middle East.
Fifty plus years of misguided policy won't be overcome easily.
I do believe the U.S. should quietly and firmly inform Israel that the blank check has been withdrawn. Given the strength and pervasiveness of the Israeli lobby here, this may be hard to do. However, I do believe that the American people are gradually changing their view iof Israel. and that the transformation is better done gradually and deliberately than suddenly in a great public clamor.
georgeob, Your last post tells it like it is; I agree 100%.
In the Oval Office in December 2002, the president met with a few ranking senators and members of the House, both Republicans and Democrats. In those days, there were high hopes that the United States-sponsored ''road map'' for the Israelis and Palestinians would be a pathway to peace, and the discussion that wintry day was, in part, about countries providing peacekeeping forces in the region. The problem, everyone agreed, was that a number of European countries, like France and Germany, had armies that were not trusted by either the Israelis or Palestinians. One congressman -- the Hungarian-born Tom Lantos, a Democrat from California and the only Holocaust survivor in Congress -- mentioned that the Scandinavian countries were viewed more positively. Lantos went on to describe for the president how the Swedish Army might be an ideal candidate to anchor a small peacekeeping force on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Sweden has a well-trained force of about 25,000. The president looked at him appraisingly, several people in the room recall.
''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''
Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ''Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They're the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.'' Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.
Bush held to his view. ''No, no, it's Sweden that has no army.''
The room went silent, until someone changed the subject.
- Ron Suskind, "Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush", in The New York Times Magazine, 17 October 2004
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?ex=1255665600en=890a96189e162076ei=5090
Quote:Arab and Jew Population Statistics for Palestine
VII.
By Area: Arab / Jewish Population (2003-2004)
...
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............
Israel ..... West Bank .. Gaza Strip.... Total
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Jews.
5,165,400 ...... 371,000 ....... 7,500 .,.. 5,543,900
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arabs
1,301,600 ... 2,300,293 . 1,337,236 ... 4,939,129
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Inside Israel, there are over 1.3 million Arabs living at least tolerantly and lawfully among less than 5.2 million Jews.
Perhaps the solution is for Israel to expand to enclose all of Palestine. That way, perhaps
the remaining less than 3.64 million Palestinian Arabs will not feel excluded and resentful of Israel, because they would then be included in Israel.
ican, You can't even be honest with your stats. One needs to see the history of what happened to the populations in Israel, not a two year scan.
Israel/Palestine: Roots of the conflict
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Around the end of the 19th century the area then internationally known as Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. The vast majority of the indigenous population were Muslim with a minority Christian and smaller minority Jewish (around 3%) population. The indigenous Jewish community were not involved in nor supportive of the Zionist movement which began in 1882 with the first wave of European Jewish immigration to Palestine.
Zionism, or Jewish nationalism, has the core belief that all Jews constitute one nation (and not simply a religious or ethnic community). Zionism, supported by the Western empires, was influenced by nationalist ideology and by European settler colonialism, and its goal at the outset was the concentration of as many Jews as possible in Palestine and the eventual establishment of a Jewish state there.
The Arabs of Palestine were overwhelmingly opposed to an exclusively Jewish state and to the large-scale Jewish immigration which led to eviction from their small farms, which had been sold to settlers by their landlords. European Jewish immigration to Palestine increased dramatically after Hitler's rise to power in 1933 leading to new land purchases and Jewish settlements. Palestinian resistance climaxed in 1936-9 when, after the failure of a long strike, a national revolt was attempted. The revolt was defeated by the British who had been in control of the area since the 1st world war.
After the 2nd world war, survivors of the Nazi Holocaust were not really given a choice of places to which to emigrate, opportunities to emigrate to the United States or into other countries in the Western Hemisphere being very limited. On the other hand, the indigenous Arab population rejected the idea, accepted as natural in the West, that they had a moral obligation to sacrifice their land to compensate for the crimes committed by Europeans.
In 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. Days after the adoption of the UN partition plan fighting began between the Arab and Jewish residents of Palestine. By early 1948, the Zionist forces had secured control over the territory allotted to the Jewish state in the UN plan, as well as territory assigned to the Palestinian state, and Zionist leaders proclaimed the state of Israel. Neighbouring Arab states, whose rulers had territorial designs on Palestine, then invaded Israel-Palestine. By 1949 half the proposed Palestinian state was incorporated within Israel, East Jerusalem and the West bank was occupied by Jordon and the Gaza region was divided between Israel and Egypt. During this conflict massacres of Palestinian people took place and around 750,000 fled or were expelled. Of this refugee population, approximately one-third fled to the West Bank, another third to the Gaza Strip, and the remainder to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or farther afield.
In 1967 Israel attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordon in a war which lasted six days and resulted in the Israeli occupation of the West bank, the Gaza strip, the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights.
Since l967 a harsh military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has been maintained, with the systematic humiliation and degradation of the Palestinian population an instrument of policy. Israeli policies and practices in the West Bank and Gaza have included extensive use of collective punishments such as curfews, mass land expropriations, house demolitions, assassinations, forced movement of populations and closure of roads, schools, universities and community institutions.
Hundreds of Palestinian political activists have been deported to Jordan or Lebanon, tens of thousands of acres of Palestinian land have been confiscated, and thousands of fruit trees have been uprooted. Since 1967, over 300,000 Palestinians have been imprisoned without trial, and over half a million have been tried in the Israeli military court system. Torture of Palestinian prisoners is common practice and dozens of people have died in detention.
Palestinians are denied freedom of expression, press and political association. Every aspect of Palestinian life is regulated, and often severely restricted by the Israeli military administration. For example, the Israeli state even forbids the gathering wild thyme, and no one may plant a tree or a vegetable in the West Bank without written authorisation.
Within Israel, the minority Palestinian population live as second class citizens. Israel is the only state in the world which is not the state of its actual citizens, but of the whole Jewish people who consequently have rights that non-Jews do not. For example, 93% of the land of the state is characterised as Jewish land, meaning that no non-Jew is allowed to lease, sell or buy it.
Land expropriation, to make way for new Israeli settlements in the occupied territories has been ongoing since 1968 as more and more Arab land is ethnically cleansed. Immense networks of bypass roads linking settlements to each other have been constructed while further fragmenting and diminishing Palestinian living space and land holdings.
It is now estimated that there are almost 3.2 million Palestinian refugees living in the West bank, the Gaza strip, Jordon, Syria and the Lebanon. Of these, around a million live in refugee camps.
Israel's reign of terror in the occupied territories, accompanied by its policy of blocking economic development, aims at driving large numbers of Palestinians to emigrate and to convert the remaining population into a captive market and cheap labour force for Israel with the eventual aim of integrating the occupied territories within Israel. The minority of the Israeli ruling class who don't agree with this are not much better. Their preferred option is a weak Palestinian statelet existing alongside Israel and under it's effective control (the 'two states' solution).
The first Intifada, a mass uprising against Israeli occupation initially involving hundreds of thousands of people, took place from 1987 to 1992. After the failure of the Oslo agreement the second Intifada began in September 2000 and since then over 1,400 Palestinians and nearly 450 Israelis have been killed. Islamic religious terrorists, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have claimed responsibility for most of the suicide bombings and other attacks inside Israel, which have claimed over 160 civilian lives as of April 2002.
Israel's military response to the uprising and guerrilla war escalated in intensity and scale throughout 2001 into 2002, culminating in the recent military attack on the West Bank and Gaza strip, where the Israeli military has completely demolished entire sections of refugee camps and massacred hundreds of Palestinians living there. Villages and towns throughout the occupied territories have been raided, civilian homes shelled and demolished, electricity and water supplies cut, people assassinated and thousands of residents detained at military bases. Medical personnel and ambulances attempting to evacuate the dead and wounded have been shot at and ambulances destroyed.
Deirdre Hogan
CI, was your piece commissioned by Hamas? It is pure BS.
It says, for instance, "in 1967 Israel attacked Egypt, Syria and Jordon in a war which lasted six days and resulted in the Israeli occupation of the West bank, the Gaza strip, the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights."
Those countries attacked Israel, and lost. Israel then took war prizes.
