ican711nm wrote:I think your rendition of the 1930s-on history of the Jews relative to Palestine is accurate enough for what it says, but inaccurate for what it leaves out. I think your last three paragraphs exerpted above are what is relevant NOW. However, I'll include a little of what I think you left out so you'll know what I mean.
BRITANNICA wrote:
1918: Ottoman Empire Ends Control of Palestine. British Protectorate of Palestine Begins.
1920: 5 Jews killed 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921: 46 Jews killed 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1929: 133 Jews killed 339 wounded 116 Arabs killed 232 wounded.
1936-1939: 329 Jews killed 857 wounded. 3,112 Arabs killed 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged 5,679 jailed.
1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.
1948: Jews declare independence and establish the State of Israel.
1948: War breaks out between Jews defending Israel and Arabs attempting to invade Israel. State of Israel successfully defends itself and
conquers part of Arab Palestine.
What did I leave out? The only comparative data you have added is for Jewish & Arab deaths in 1929 (133 Jews & 116 Arabs) and 1936 - 1939 (329 Jews & 3,112 Arabs). If anything this indicates that in the pre war period it was Jews killing Arabs in a ratio of 9.5 to one.
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Terror and intimidation were weapons of choice used by Zionists from an early stage in the story.
Yes, those weapons of choice by the Isrealis were chosen in reaction to the terror and intimidation weapons of choice used by the Palestinian Arabs at an even earlier stage of the story.
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Your own data suggests that then - as today - it is Arabs who do most of the dieing in these struggles.
It was Jews that did most of the dying in 1920, 1921, and in 1929. In the 1930s, the Arabs finally started paying a dearer price for their murderous conduct. Retaliation by the Jews will get even more severe as the Arabs continue to murder Jewish non-murderers.
Nowhere have I suggested that Israel is a less tolerant or progressive state than those of its Moslem neighbors. I even noted that, within the clearly defined limits of its toleration, it is better in many ways than most of its neighbors. What I did note, however, is that Israel is not a western-style tolerant, pluralistic democracy. It is instead a more or less typical middleastern state - tribal, theocratic and intolerant of anything but passive and small minorities. In that it has no special transcendent claim on the support of the West.
Yes, "Israel is not a western-style tolerant, pluralistic democracy." So what? What is the nature of their relationship to western-style tolerant, pluralistic democracies that obligates Israel to conform to western-style tolerant, pluralistic democracies? Indeed what is so tolerant about western-style tolerant, pluralistic democracies that justifies their intolerance of Israeli style democracy? Your concentration on what you allege is the intolerance of the Jews, by its direct implication, suggests you are far more tolerant of Palestinian Arab intolerance of the Israelis than you are of the Israeli intolerance of the Palestinian Arabs.
Whatever may be the effect of the intifada on the Israeli public mind, the path to a peaceful, secure future for them will not be found through walls, military retaliation, helicopter attacks on Palestinian leaders, or a competition between warring systems of Jewish and Moslem intolerance.
So the United States determines that Israel is no longer worthy of protection and withdraws all support.
How long would Israel then survive? Will the UN members step in to save it if the Arab nations act on their determination to have Israel gone?
And if not, then idyllic peace and calm will settle over the land and the USA will no longer need to fear anything from organized extreme radical Islamic fundamentalists?
Arab and Jew Population Statistics for Palestine
IV. Palestine: Arab / Jewish Population (1914 - 1946)
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Year ..Jews ...Arabs ....Total ....% of Jews to Total
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1914 60,000 731,000 791,000 7.585%
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1918* 59,000 688,000 747,000 7.898%
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1922 83,790 668,258 752,048 11.141%
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1931 174,606 858,708 1,033,314 16.897%
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1941 474,102 1,111,398 1,585,500 29.902%
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1944 554,000 1,211,000 1,765,000 31.388%
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1946 608,225 1,237,334 1,845,559 32.956%
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VII. By Area: Arab / Jewish Population (2003-2004)
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............Israel West Bank Gaza Strip Total
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Jews 5,165,400 371,000 7,500 5,543,900
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Arabs 1,301,600 2,300,293 1,337,236 4,939,129
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IB, Your ¨simple solution¨is not really simple. It´s like asking them to live without one of their most important facets of their life. It ain´t gonna happen.
Robert Fisk: Divide and rule - America's plan for Baghdad
Revealed: a new counter-insurgency strategy to carve up the city into sealed areas. The tactic failed in Vietnam. So what chance does it have in Iraq?
Published: 11 April 2007
Faced with an ever-more ruthless insurgency in Baghdad - despite President George Bush's "surge" in troops - US forces in the city are now planning a massive and highly controversial counter-insurgency operation that will seal off vast areas of the city, enclosing whole neighbourhoods with barricades and allowing only Iraqis with newly issued ID cards to enter.
The campaign of "gated communities" - whose genesis was in the Vietnam War - will involve up to 30 of the city's 89 official districts and will be the most ambitious counter-insurgency programme yet mounted by the US in Iraq.
The system has been used - and has spectacularly failed - in the past, and its inauguration in Iraq is as much a sign of American desperation at the country's continued descent into civil conflict as it is of US determination to "win" the war against an Iraqi insurgency that has cost the lives of more than 3,200 American troops. The system of "gating" areas under foreign occupation failed during the French war against FLN insurgents in Algeria and again during the American war in Vietnam. Israel has employed similar practices during its occupation of Palestinian territory - again, with little success.
But the campaign has far wider military ambitions than the pacification of Baghdad. It now appears that the US military intends to place as many as five mechanised brigades - comprising about 40,000 men - south and east of Baghdad, at least three of them positioned between the capital and the Iranian border. This would present Iran with a powerful - and potentially aggressive - American military force close to its border in the event of a US or Israeli military strike against its nuclear facilities later this year.
The latest "security" plan, of which The Independent has learnt the details, was concocted by General David Petraeus, the current US commander in Baghdad, during a six-month command and staff course at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas. Those attending the course - American army generals serving in Iraq and top officers from the US Marine Corps, along with, according to some reports, at least four senior Israeli officers - participated in a series of debates to determine how best to "turn round" the disastrous war in Iraq.
The initial emphasis of the new American plan will be placed on securing Baghdad market places and predominantly Shia Muslim areas. Arrests of men of military age will be substantial. The ID card project is based upon a system adopted in the city of Tal Afar by General Petraeus's men - and specifically by Colonel H R McMaster, of the 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment - in early 2005, when an eight-foot "berm" was built around the town to prevent the movement of gunmen and weapons. General Petraeus regarded the campaign as a success although Tal Afar, close to the Syrian border, has since fallen back into insurgent control.
So far, the Baghdad campaign has involved only the creation of a few US positions within several civilian areas of the city but the new project will involve joint American and Iraqi "support bases" in nine of the 30 districts to be "gated" off. From these bases - in fortified buildings - US-Iraqi forces will supposedly clear militias from civilian streets which will then be walled off and the occupants issued with ID cards. Only the occupants will be allowed into these "gated communities" and there will be continuous patrolling by US-Iraqi forces. There are likely to be pass systems, "visitor" registration and restrictions on movement outside the "gated communities". Civilians may find themselves inside a "controlled population" prison.
In theory, US forces can then concentrate on providing physical reconstruction in what the military like to call a "secure environment". But insurgents are not foreigners, despite the presence of al-Qa'ida in Iraq. They come from the same population centres that will be "gated" and will, if undiscovered, hold ID cards themselves; they will be "enclosed" with everyone else.
A former US officer in Vietnam who has a deep knowledge of General Petraeus's plans is sceptical of the possible results. "The first loyalty of any Sunni who is in the Iraqi army is to the insurgency," he said. "Any Shia's first loyalty is to the head of his political party and its militia. Any Kurd in the Iraqi army, his first loyalty is to either Barzani or Talabani. There is no independent Iraqi army. These people really have no choice. They are trying to save their families from starvation and reprisal. At one time they may have believed in a unified Iraq. At one time they may have been secular. But the violence and brutality that started with the American invasion has burnt those liberal ideas out of people ... Every American who is embedded in an Iraqi unit is in constant mortal danger."
The senior generals who constructed the new "security" plan for Baghdad were largely responsible for the seminal - but officially "restricted" - field manual on counter-insurgency produced by the Department of the Army in December of last year, code-numbered FM 3-24. While not specifically advocating the "gated communities" campaign, one of its principles is the unification of civilian and military activities, citing "civil operations and revolutionary development support teams" in South Vietnam, assistance to Kurdish refugees in northern Iraq in 1991 and the "provincial reconstruction teams" in Afghanistan - a project widely condemned for linking military co-operation and humanitarian aid.
FM 3-24 is harsh in its analysis of what counter-insurgency forces must do to eliminate violence in Iraq. "With good intelligence," it says, "counter-insurgents are like surgeons cutting out cancerous tissue while keeping other vital organs intact." But another former senior US officer has produced his own pessimistic conclusions about the "gated" neighbourhood project.
"Once the additional troops are in place the insurrectionists will cut the lines of communication from Kuwait to the greatest extent they are able," he told The Independent. "They will do the same inside Baghdad, forcing more use of helicopters. The helicopters will be vulnerable coming into the patrol bases, and the enemy will destroy as many as they can. The second part of their plan will be to attempt to destroy one of the patrol bases. They will begin that process by utilising their people inside the 'gated communities' to help them enter. They will choose bases where the Iraqi troops either will not fight or will actually support them.
"The American reaction will be to use massive firepower, which will destroy the neighbourhood that is being 'protected'."
The ex-officer's fears for American helicopter crews were re-emphasised yesterday when a military Apache was shot down over central Baghdad.
The American's son is an officer currently serving in Baghdad. "The only chance the American military has to withdraw with any kind of tactical authority in the future is to take substantial casualties as a token of their respect for the situation created by the invasion," he said.
"The effort to create some order out of the chaos and the willingness to take casualties to do so will leave some residual respect for the Americans as they leave."
FM 3-24: America's new masterplan for Iraq
FM 3-24 comprises 220 pages of counter-insurgency planning, combat training techniques and historical analysis. The document was drawn up by Lt-Gen David Petraeus, the US commander in Baghdad, and Lt-Gen James Amos of the US Marine Corps, and was the nucleus for the new US campaign against the Iraqi insurgency. These are some of its recommendations and conclusions:
* In the eyes of some, a government that cannot protect its people forfeits the right to rule. In [parts] of Iraq and Afghanistan... militias established themselves as extragovernmental arbiters of the populace's physical security - in some cases, after first undermining that security...
* In the al-Qa'ida narrative... Osama bin Laden depicts himself as a man purified in the mountains of Afghanistan who is inspiring followers and punishing infidels. In the collective imagination of Bin Laden and his followers, they are agents of Islamic history who will reverse the decline of the umma (Muslim community) and bring about its triumph over Western imperialism.
* As the Host Nation government increases its legitimacy, the populace begins to assist it more actively. Eventually, the people marginalise insurgents to the point that [their] claim to legitimacy is destroyed. However, victory is gained not when this is achieved, but when the victory is permanently maintained by and with the people's active support...
* Any human rights abuses committed by US forces quickly become known throughout the local populace. Illegitimate actions undermine counterinsurgency efforts... Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal and unprofessional.
* If military forces remain in their compounds, they lose touch with the people, appear to be running scared, and cede the initiative to the insurgents. Aggressive saturation patrolling, ambushes, and listening post operations must be conducted, risk shared with the populace and contact maintained.
* FM 3-24 quotes Lawrence of Arabia as saying: "Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them."
* FM 3-24 points to Napoleon's failure to control occupied Spain as the result of not providing a "stable environment" for the population. His struggle, the document says, lasted nearly six years and required four times the force of 80,000 Napoleon originally designated.
* Do not try to crack the hardest nut first. Do not go straight for the main insurgent stronghold. Instead, start from secure areas and work gradually outwards... Go with, not against, the grain of the local populace.
* Be cautious about allowing soldiers and marines to fraternise with local children. Homesick troops want to drop their guard with kids. But insurgents are watching. They notice any friendships between troops and children. They may either harm the children as punishment or use them as agents.
Arab and Jew Population Statistics for Palestine
IV. Palestine: Arab / Jewish Population (1914 - 1946)
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Year ..Jews ...Arabs ....Total ....% of Jews to Total
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1914 60,000 731,000 791,000 7.585%
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1918* 59,000 688,000 747,000 7.898%
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1922 83,790 668,258 752,048 11.141%
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1931 174,606 858,708 1,033,314 16.897%
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1941 474,102 1,111,398 1,585,500 29.902%
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1944 554,000 1,211,000 1,765,000 31.388%
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1946 608,225 1,237,334 1,845,559 32.956%
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VII. By Area: Arab / Jewish Population (2003-2004)
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............Israel West Bank Gaza Strip Total
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Jews 5,165,400 371,000 7,500 5,543,900
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Arabs 1,301,600 2,300,293 1,337,236 4,939,129
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Arab and Jew Death Statistics for Palestine
Palestanians Deaths vs Israeli Deaths. September 28th, 2000 - February 15, 2006
[Total Number of Palestinian Arab deaths]: 4209
Children: 892
Women : 273
Men : 3044
Total: 4,209
[Palestinians killed by Jewish settlers] 72
[Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling] : 83
[Deaths as a result of medical prevention at Israeli checkpoints] : 117
Of them stillbirths (born dead at checkpoints) : 31
[Number of Palestinians extra-judicially assassinated] : 561
Of them bystanders killed during extra-judicial operations: 253
Arab Battle Deaths = 72+83+117+561 = 833
[Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1113
Children : 113
Women : 305
Men : 603
Subtotal:1,021
?Other?: 0,092
Total: ... 1,113
Settlers : 213
Soldiers : 322
What Bush and his minions have not understood is the simple fact that the Iraqi government is only using the US for their own power; it´s a fragile government with no power or influence in the region - now or ever.
cicerone imposter wrote:What Bush and his minions have not understood is the simple fact that the Iraqi government is only using the US for their own power; it´s a fragile government with no power or influence in the region - now or ever.
What we rational folks understand is that your alleged "simple fact" is a simpleton's fantasy.
What gets me is your willing ignorance and refusal to see how wrong you've been. That's the scary part. You'll go to your grave believing that we really went there to help the Iraqi people.
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What gets me is your willing ignorance and refusal to see how wrong you've been. That's the scary part. You'll go to your grave believing that we really went there to help the Iraqi people.
Cycloptichorn
The reasons given in the following quotes for invading Iraq and Afghanistan are valid and sufficient, regardless of whether or not the other reasons Bush et al gave are valid and sufficient.
Congress wrote:
Congress's Joint Resolution September 14, 2001
emphasis added
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
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(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
Congress wrote:
Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
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[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;
[11th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;
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Senate Select Committee wrote:
Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
Conclusion 6. Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq, an area that Baghdad had not controlled since 1991.
General Tommy Franks wrote:
American Soldier, by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers
page 483:
"The air picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges an a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Isla terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another [Tomahawk Land Attack Missile] bashing. Soon Special Forces and [Special Mission Unit] operators, leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted."
page 519:
"[The Marines] also encountered several hundred foreign fighters from Egypt, the Sudan, Syria, and Lybia who were being trained by the regime in a camp south of Baghdad. Those foreign volunteers fought with suicidal ferocity, but they did not fight well. The Marines killed them all. "
Wikipedia wrote:ANSAR AL-ISLAM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam (Supporters or Partisans of Islam) is a Kurdish Sunni Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war. At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border. It has used tactics such as suicide bombers in its conflicts with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and other Kurdish groups.
Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar. Krekar became the leader of the merged Ansar al-Islam, which opposed an agreement made between IMK and the dominant Kurdish group in the area, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK).
Ansar al-Islam fortified a number of villages along the Iranian border, with Iranian artillery support. [1]
Ansar al-Islam quickly initiated a number of attacks on the peshmerga (armed forces) of the PUK, on one occasion massacring 53 prisoners and beheading them. Several assassination attempts on leading PUK-politicians were also made with carbombs and snipers.
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.
UN wrote:UN CHARTER Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
