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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:50 pm
Advocate wrote:

George, you are continuing to spout nonsense. The casualties among the Pals are about double the Israeli casualties. After all, Israel has a modern army.
Well that justifies anything doesn't it? Odd that the modernity of U.S. forces hasn't deterred you from decrying casualties in Iraq. My point was that, based on fatalities alone the, Palestinians have as much or more to fear from Israel for their continued existence as do the Israelis themselves. The point stands, your evasive rationalization notwithstanding.

Advocate wrote:

Israel has not systematically displaced Pals. The former's settlements, which are being dismantled, were placed on barren land owned by no one.
Hard to believe you are not aware of the deception here. More than half of the West Bank is now behind Israel's security wall. All of the land within it is subject to Israel's direct, daily control. The unfortunate Palestinians trapped behind it are not citizens of Israel and have no political or economic rights whatever. Those outside the wall remain subject to Israeli military retaliation and continued Israeli control of air and water rights and external access to the world.

Advocate wrote:

Israel is an independent country and has the right to be slightly theocratic. Most Muslim countries are extremely theocratic, but I never see you objecting to this. You are silent on this even though minorities, such as Christians, are persecuted and driven out.

Israel certainly doesn't persecute its Arab citizens, who are prospering, and not fleeing the country.


Some valid points here. However "slightly theocratic" is a rather mild description of the conjunction of the universal right of return for Jews gone for almost two millennia, and the prohibition of the return of Palestinians driven out only a generation ago. Moreover "slightly theocratic' doesn't begin to describe the forty year oppression of the population of the West bank who have been systematically deprived of political, economic and property rights without redress, compensation, or even a voice in the process. Nor does it describe Israel's declared intent to forever be a Jewish state, no matter what means may be required to preserve it.

I agree with you about the rigid intolerance and backwardness of the Moslem world. This si one of the most serious problems confronting the modern world. However the implanting of a European version of the same thing in their midst is hardly a solution to this issue. Indeed it makes the problem far worse and compromises our ability to deal with either.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:52 pm
Advocate wrote:
Cyclo, what nonsense! Israel has begged the Pals to sit down and work out something leading to a Pal state. The Pals won't even offer a map, since this would effectively recognize that there is, and should be, a state of Israel.


Begged? That's going a little far. Israel has never offered the Palestinians a state which had contiguous borders, access to water, etc..

It's hard to sit down and have a nice chat with people who have oppressed your populace for the entire lives of almost everyone who lives there. Little resentment, yaknow.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 02:26 pm
George says that more than half the West Bank is behind the security fence. This is REALLY nonsense. The fence more or less follows the Green Line.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 02:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Israel has never offered the Palestinians a state which had contiguous borders, access to water, etc..

It's hard to sit down and have a nice chat with people who have oppressed your populace for the entire lives of almost everyone who lives there. Little resentment, yaknow.

Cycloptichorn

WHO OPPRESSED WHOM IN PALESTINE?

Here's an abbreviated chronology of the land now called Palestine (some years are approximate). The Encyclopedia Britannica, "Palestine" is the source.
Britannica wrote:

2000 BC: First Canaanite Culture.
1400 BC: Eqypt conquers Palestine
1300 BC: First Israelite Culture.
1100 BC: First Philistine Culture (Philistra, evolved to the name Palestine).

1000 BC: Saul King of Israel (all Palestine except
................Philistra and Phoenicia).
0950 BC: Solomon King of Israel.
0721 BC: Israel conquered, but Judaea continues.
0516 BC: 2nd Temple in Judaea.
0333 BC:The Greek, Alexander the Great conquers
................Palestine.
0161 BC: Maccabaen Maximum Expansion of Judaea to
................conquer all Palestine Plus.
0135 BC: Maccabaen Maximum Expansion Ends.
0040 BC:Romans conquer part of Palestine.
0073 AD: Jerusalem conqueredand all resistance ceases.
0638 AD: Arabs conquer Jerusalem.
1099 AD: Crusaders conquer Palestine.
1187 AD: Saladin conquers Palestine.
1229 AD: Saladin/Crusader Treaty.
1244 AD: Turks conquer Palestine.
1516 AD: Ottoman Empire Begins Governing Palestine.
1831 AD: Egypt conquers Palestine.
1841 AD: Ottoman Empire Again conquers Palestine.
1918: Ottoman Empire Ends Control of Palestine. British Protectorate of Palestine Begins.

1920: 5 Jews killed 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.

1921: 46 Jews killed 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.

1929: 133 Jews killed 339 wounded 116 Arabs killed 232 wounded.

1936-1939: 329 Jews killed 857 wounded. 3,112 Arabs killed 1,775 wounded; 135 Brits killed 386 wounded; 110 Arabs hanged 5,679 jailed.

1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.

1948: Jews declare independence and establish the State of Israel.

1948: War breaks out between Jews defending Israel and Arabs attempting to invade Israel. State of Israel successfully defends itself and
conquers part of Arab Palestine.

Quote:
TERRORISM of JEWS
1970: Avivim school bus massacre by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children, three adults and crippling 19.

1972: Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

1974: Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, nine of whom were children.

1974: Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

1975: In the Savoy Operation PLO gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages.

1976: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionäre Zellen; see Operation Entebbe: four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandian soldiers killed.

1978: Members of the Arab Revolutionary Council poison Israeli oranges with mercury, injuring at least twelve people and reducing exports by 40 percent.

1978: Coastal Road massacre: Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

1984: three killed and nine injured in the bombing of a civilian bus in Ashdod.

1984: 48 people are wounded by a machine gun attack on a crowded shopping mall in Jerusalem.

1986: A bomb place on a bus in the West Bank kills one and severely injures three.

1990: PLF attack in the beaches on Tel Aviv.

1990: PLO attack on the US embassy.

1992: Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured.

1994: Bombing of Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, kills 86 and wounds 300.

1996: A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days.

2001: Israeli infant Shalhevet Pass is fatally shot in the head by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron.

2001: 21 civilians, mostly teenagers from the former Soviet Union, are killed by a Hamas suicide bomber in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv, Israel.

2001: A suicide bomber in Jerusalem kills seven and wounds 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing; Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.

2001: Israeli tourism minister Rehavam Zeevi is assassinated by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

2002: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 30 and injures 140 during Passover festivities in a hotel in Netanya, Israel in the Passover massacre.

2002: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in Haifa, Israel, in the Matza restaurant massacre.

2002: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates himself on a bus in Jerusalem in the Patt junction massacre. The attack kills 19 people and wounds over 74.

2002: Hamas orchestrates the Jerusalem bus 20 massacre. 11 people were killed and over 50 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated on a crowded bus in central Jerusalem.

2003: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 17 people and wounds 53 when he detonates a bomb hidden under his clothing in the Haifa bus 37 massacre.

2003: Jerusalem bus 2 massacre: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates himself on a crowded bus carrying mostly Orthodox Jewish Israelis, including many children returning from the Western Wall. 23 people are killed and over 130 wounded.

2003: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills 21 and wounds 51 in a Haifa restaurant in the Maxim restaurant massacre.

2004: Jerusalem bus 19 massacre: Hamas and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades orchestrate a suicide bombing on a bus in Jerusalem, Israel killing 11 people and wounding more than 50.

2004: Israeli soldiers arrest Hussam Abdo, a 15 year-old Palestinian boy with explosives strapped to his chest at the Hawara Checkpoint. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades sent Abdo on a suicide mission to bomb the checkpoint.

2004: Pregnant Israeli commuter Tali Hatuel and her four young children are gunned down at close range by militants from the Popular Resistance Committees and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

2005: A suicide bomber in Tel Aviv kills five Israelis and undermines a weeks-old truce between the two sides.

2005: Islamic Jihad takes responsibility for a suicide bombing in Netanya, Israel, which kills five people at a shopping mall.

2005: A Palestinian suicide bomber detonates a bomb near a falafel stand in Hadera, Israel that kills himself and six others. Twenty-six people were also wounded.

2005: A suicide bomb attack kills at least five people in Netanya in north-western Israel.

2006: Qassam rockets fired by Hamas into Israel, especially the cities of Ashkelon and Sderot, injures many citizens.

2006: Palestinian suicide bomber kills himself and four others at Kedumim Junction in the West Bank.

2006: Sami Hammad, a Palestinian suicide bomber, detonates an explosive device in Tel Aviv, Israel, killing eleven people and injuring 70.

2006: Eliyahu Asheri, an Israeli citizen, was kidnapped and murdered by the Palestinian terrorist group, the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC).


SO I ASK AGAIN, WHO OPPRESSED WHOM IN PALESTINE?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 03:58 pm
Advocate wrote:
Foxfyre, I never thought I would agree with you on anything. However, your posts on this thread are very cogent and accurate.

I do feel, however, that the USA will continue to provide significant aid to Israel. Contrary to the views of some on this thread, we get a very big bang for the buck relative to Israel. For instance, during the Cold War, analysts have said that the benefit from the aid we provided Israel was about equal to the benefit from our bases in Germany, the cost of which was a large multiple of the aid given Israel.


Advocate

I suggest you keep in mind your regard for Foxfyre's reasoning when you find yourself dismissing her out of hand on other threads.

I would also suggest that should Liberals continue to gain power in America you are going to increasingly find yourself torn by your general political sense and your support for Israel.

To the extent that the fate of Israel is in the hands of the United States those who strongly support her should hope those hands are Republican.

What a quandry for you.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 06:26 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

I simply cannot see how it is so wrong, backward, or anything else for the Jewis to have a tiny little place in the world intended to receive those Jews who need or want a friendly place to go.


That's not what Israel is at all, not one bit. Or else they wouldn't have picked the 'tiny little place in the world' which just happens to be the major religious worship sites for two other religions.

Advocate
Quote:

Israel has not systematically displaced Pals. The former's settlements, which are being dismantled, were placed on barren land owned by no one.


This is pure, 100% bullsh*t. The Israelis have gone to great lengths to keep the Palestinians from having a contiguous and self-sustainable country.

Cycloptichorn


And you seem to want to ignore science.
Archeologists have not found ANY Muslim sites that predate the Israeli sites.
Masada is older itself then ANY Muslim site in the area.
Archeologists have found evidence of Jewish habitation dating back to the time of King David and before.
So,they didnt pick "the 'tiny little place in the world' which just happens to be the major religious worship sites for two other religions" so much as they picked the place that is holy to them.
BTW,when I was in Israel,I didnt see any evidence that the Jews there were desecrating any Christian sites,or that they were desecrating any Muslim sites.

So,if you truly want to make the case that the Muslim religion and people were there before the Jews,then you need to come up with the archeological evidence to prove it.
So far,ALL the evidence favors the Jews.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:28 pm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:53 pm
Well, if we do such for all parts/countries of the world it would be a great fun!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:34 pm
ican wrote:
SO I ASK AGAIN, WHO OPPRESSED WHOM IN PALESTINE?


You're confusing, as you have demonstrated time and again to be your want when making a tourtured point, oppression with reactions to oppression.

Since the time when the first Ashkenazi colonizers, Zionists, arrived in Palestine (which was then still under Ottoman control) with their European chauvinism based on the racist nationalist ideologies of the times, the mid to late nineteenth century, the Zionists have been the oppressors in that land.

One of the handful of Zionists who bothered to take notice of the potential for strife between the European colonizers and the Arab natives, and the oppression visited upon the Arabs by those first Zionist colonists was Ahad Ha'am, the pen name of Asher Ginsberg, a Ukrainian Ashkenazi of whom the Jewish Virtual Library says was "the central figure in the movement for Cultural or Spiritual Zionism."

In an 1891 essay Ha'am wrote:

"We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated."

In another essay written in that same year he wrote:
"If a time comes when our people in Palestine develop so that, in small or great measure, they push out the native inhabitants, these will not give up their place easily."

In an article published in the Hebrew periodical Hameliz that year he wrote:
"[the Zionist pioneers believed that] the only language the Arabs understand is that of force ..... [They] behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly upon their boundaries, beat them shamefully without reason and even brag about it, and nobody stands to check this contemptible and dangerous tendency."

Again that year, in his pamphlet "Truth from Eretz Yisrael"he expanded on the previous article writing,
"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." 'Ahad Ha'Am warned: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside."

In 1914 in perhaps his most prophetic words he stated:
"'[the Zionists] wax angry towards those who remind them that there is still another people in Eretz Yisrael that has been living there and does not intend at all to leave its place. In a future when this ILLUSION will have been torn from their hearts and they will look with open eyes upon the reality as it is, they will certainly understand how important this question is and how great our duty to work for its solution."
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 07:36 am
I think we can go back into ancient history and find anything we want. I think we should instead dwell in the present, in which we have a modern, legal state, Israel.

Israel has been under attack from its neighbors from even before it was born. I don't see how anyone can blame the state for protecting itself. The charges of Israeli brutality are self-serving and false.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 09:00 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, if we do such for all parts/countries of the world it would be a great fun!


Wouldn't it?

We'd probably need to spend billions cloning Neanderthals so we could give them Europe back.

Why bother though?

Let's just commit species wide suicide and we can then allow animals and plants to fight it out.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 09:47 am
Quote:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8925884404226108533

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 10:03 am
How is one "denied essential public services"? Isn't Hamas taking care of it's people? Surely they could string some wire, dig a well, and build an outhouse. Maybe if they spent more money on essential public services instead of guns and bombs, these peoples lives wouldn't be in such a bad condition?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 10:09 am
Last time I checked, Hamas doesn't administrate southern Israel. Which is where the Negev desert is located at. Which you would have realized if you had done an ounce of research before you posted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,903627,00.html

How embarrassing for you

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 10:27 am
We have a similar situation in the USA relative to its native populations. There are also very poor and depressed areas throughout the USA where industry has fled to other countries, etc. You should see parts of Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc., that appear to be war zones.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 10:36 am
Advocate wrote:
We have a similar situation in the USA relative to its native populations. There are also very poor and depressed areas throughout the USA where industry has fled to other countries, etc. You should see parts of Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc., that appear to be war zones.


Non-sequitur

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 04:12 pm
OK! LET'S TALK MODERN LEGAL

1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.

There currently exists that Jewish state. That Arab state doesn't quite exist yet. Maybe, if the Arabs diverted their attention from trying to end that Jewish state, and focused it on building themselves that Arab state, there would be an Arab state.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 04:56 pm
ican711nm wrote:
OK! LET'S TALK MODERN LEGAL

1947: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish State and into an Arab State.

There currently exists that Jewish state. That Arab state doesn't quite exist yet. Maybe, if the Arabs diverted their attention from trying to end that Jewish state, and focused it on building themselves that Arab state, there would be an Arab state.


Are we talking about the borders of the Jewish state and the Arab state from the 1947 partition plan, too?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/1947PartitionPlan.PNG/306px-1947PartitionPlan.PNG

Or are you only talking about the 1947 plan to create two states, but insist on the borders of Israel+occupied territories as they are today?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/12/Is-wb-gs-gh_v3.png/195px-Is-wb-gs-gh_v3.png
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 05:11 pm
I have some questions for all of you saying Israel is in the wrong and that the problems are their fault.

IF Israel were to give the Golan Heights back to Syria,IF Israel was to pull back to the 1967 borders,IF Israel were to accede to every demand made by the Palestinians and their supporters,like some of you on here,what then?

Will all of you guarantee Israels security?
Will all of you guarantee that the terrorists will never attack Israel again,and that they would automatically recognize the right of Israel to exist?
Will all of you instantly demand that Israel be allowed to retaliate if terrorists attack them again?

If you cant answer those questions with a yes,then why should Israel accept your or any other person or countries word that they will be left alone?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 05:55 pm
mysteryman wrote:
... your or any other person or countries word that they will be left alone?


Who said that?
0 Replies
 
 

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